No Epidural Allowed!

Lindsay - posted on 08/26/2010 ( 305 moms have responded )

3,532

26

267

I just came across this blog about a Utah lawmaker that wants patients on Medicaid to not be allowed epidural to cut costs.



http://thestir.cafemom.com/pregnancy/108...



Do you find anything wrong with this? Or do you think it's a good way to cut costs?



Is it fair since Medicaid holders receive free insurance? Or do you feel that it is pushing the poor while they are already down?

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

C. - posted on 08/28/2010

4,125

35

242

Heather.. You do realize that the 'gas and other pain meds' can also be just as expensive as an epidural, right? So why is it that you think it's Ok to have those, but it's not Ok to have an epidural when on Medicaid? That, to me, does not make any sense whatsoever. I believe you need to rethink your logic a little bit.

Also, I have a friend on Medicaid.. Most states make you Co-Pay while on Medicaid so the state doesn't foot the entire bill (though the Co-Payments are SMALL, they still pay SOMETHING). Citizens do not have any control over whether their state does not make them pay anything at all. So why should women not have access to epidurals while on Medicaid? They are most likely paying something. And if they aren't paying anything, it's not their fault, it's the state's.

And yes, being in the military is great (though I am not in the military myself, I have known far too many military personnel in my lifetime to dispute that fact). But not all branches are 'family friendly', so some might not consider it 'great'.

"I'm obviously not going to get you to agree with me and I don't agree with you"

No, you won't. B/c this is a DEBATE group. You can't convince most people to go to a different side w/o good solid facts, of which you have none. And about keeping the peace.. Again, a debate group. It gets hairy at times and you're just going to have to get used to that when in one of these groups. From what I've seen, nobody has said anything rude to you. We just don't understand your logic on the whole subject. Being in the military has nothing to do with epidurals or Medicaid.

Jodi - posted on 08/27/2010

3,562

36

3907

Ok, we get the message Heather. Being in the military makes you better than everyone else.....

Johnny - posted on 08/27/2010

8,686

26

322

Wow, complete lack of consideration when currently in your country there are millions of people losing their jobs & health insurance. I imagine that there are quite a few people who confidently believe that it is a good time to get pregnant and then, bam! they lose their job and there goes their insurance. I live in Canada. I am happy, over-the-moon, about paying for other people's medical procedures. My tax dollars cover anyone's epidural and regardless of medical necessity. I tend to be of the opinion that they are overused and should be only for medical necessity, but it is not my right to impose that belief on others simply because they do not have the funds to pay for one. It really saddens me to think that there are people out there who feel that rich people shouldn't feel pain while the poor suffer. You can put it any way you like, but it's really just semantics. Money buys the right to health care choices. That's sad.

Krista - posted on 08/27/2010

12,562

16

847

Heather, your comparisons are absolutely ludicrous. To compare an epidural to breast implants? Come on. Be serious.

I have had kidney stones. My contractions were worse. If an uninsured person went to the ER with kidney stones, would you say that she shouldn't be allowed any painkillers, because they're "elective" and you don't want your tax dollars to go towards any elective procedures?

Hell, if you look at it that way, ALL pain management is elective, isn't it? So let's follow Heather's advice for healthcare. Gunshot wound? Sorry, no morphine for you if you can't afford it -- it's elective. Got hit by a car and had your leg broken? What were you doing, walking around like that when you didn't have medical insurance? We're not going to let you have morphine while we set your leg, and that'll make you think twice the next time you think of actually going for a walk out of doors, you irresponsible poor person!!!

Johnny - posted on 08/27/2010

8,686

26

322

Well, as someone who does work in a job she hates, married to a man who works in a job he likes, and who can afford to have kids, I'd still rather pay more taxes in order to have a healthier, happier society to live in. I guess this is really getting down to brass tacks, regardless of one's feelings towards epidurals, it's really about whether or not you support health care as a human right or a choice.

This conversation has been closed to further comments

305 Comments

View replies by

C. - posted on 09/01/2010

4,125

35

242

Having a go at Mary?? I did not insult her or joke around about her or anything. I don't think what I said would be considered as 'having a go' at all. I just thought that after someone had apologized, it was a bit rude, so I said something. Quit getting your panties in a bunch over something that really doesn't even concern you anyway. It was directed at Mary, not you.

Ez - posted on 09/01/2010

6,569

25

237

Ok we're 300+ posts in... anyone object to me locking this thread? No? Good.. let's move on people.

Jodi - posted on 09/01/2010

3,562

36

3907

Christina, I just don't get why you had to come in with the comment having a go at Mary again. She wasn't having a go at you!!

C. - posted on 09/01/2010

4,125

35

242

I never said it was ALL ABOUT ME, Jodi. Good grief. Seriously, go take a pill and quit taking your PMS, or whatever the hell it is, out on me!

Jodi - posted on 09/01/2010

3,562

36

3907

She was having a joke at ALL of us picking her words apart, and how many ways everyone had interpreted it. That post wasn't even necessarily directed at YOU. It wasn't all about you at all.

C. - posted on 09/01/2010

4,125

35

242

Jodi, there's really no need for that whatsoever. Go take a Midol. AFTER I had apologized, Mary posted something about how her words were being so scrutinized and then ended her post with a bunch of sarcasm. I would say that proved the point that I just made in my last post.

Jodi - posted on 09/01/2010

3,562

36

3907

Oh, for fuck's sake Christina, we've all moved on, no-one's going on about anything (including Mary not going on with the sarcasm), why don't you?

C. - posted on 09/01/2010

4,125

35

242

Mary, you can go on with the sarcasm all you want. I apologized and everything. If you won't end it, that's fine. I will.



The end.

Jodi - posted on 09/01/2010

3,562

36

3907

When I had Taylah, I went from 6cm to fully dilated in 15 minutes and then pushed twice. Before the full dilation, she was actually facing backward, and trying to get out the other way, LOL......but managed to turn and start descending as soon as my muscles relaxed enough and when she descended, she went quickly!!. But she was extremely small (5lb, 2oz). She had a slight graze on one eyelid (just a small red dot really), and that was it. So I wouldn't say she had any bruising.

Ez - posted on 09/01/2010

6,569

25

237

Ahh ok.. thanks :) My friend's second baby came roaring through her cervix and all the way out in one go, so that would sure be a case of rapid descent!! The poor little guy ended up with jaundice too, which they think was a result of his body trying to break up all the bruising.

Mary do you see many women push their babies out that fast? Or is my friend a total freak of nature? lol

Mary - posted on 09/01/2010

3,348

31

123

Erin, I pushed all of 5 times to get Molly out, and she had no bruising at all.

But you are right, a fair number of them do have some amount of facial bruising. Some of it has to do with how rapidly they descend, as well as their position in relation to your pelvic bone. For me, Molly spent most of my labor sitting at around +1/+2, so it was not a case of rapid descent.

[deleted account]

No my son wasn't bruised at all although he was small because of me being so poorly (5lb 6 1/2 oz). Also I only had a tiny tear which healed in 3 days (that suprised me because of how quick he was - I only pushed a maximum of 5 times before he came out - I really focused because I could feel the progression down - oddly that last bit was the least painful bit of all). My son had no injuries at all.

Ez - posted on 09/01/2010

6,569

25

237

Just out of curiosity, to all of you guys who had quick births (particularly second stages), did your babies come out bruised? My friend's babies (that I mentioned earlier - 4min and 1min pushing) both had little bruised faces from shooting out the birth canal so fast.

Ez - posted on 09/01/2010

6,569

25

237

Sarah I think your perception of the use of epidurals is indicative of the stance your midwife-led maternal health care has taken on focusing on the birth being natural and normal, and I think it fantastic! But unfortunately it's not like that everywhere. My friend just had her first baby 3 weeks ago (through our private system) and she went in waving that epidural consent form at everyone. She had discussed it with her doctor previously and he had agreed she could have it ASAP (as long as she was already in active labour). Turns out she went too fast and didn't get it, but I know of plenty of women, even in our public system, who planned to have the epi as soon as humanly possible.

Mary - posted on 09/01/2010

3,348

31

123

No, Toni, I understand completely what you are saying. I traversed through hell and back just to trying to get pregnant, and eventually ended up divorcing and remarrying before it ever happened. I then threw up every day, several times a day while pregnant. From a karmic perspective, I don't feel the least bit guilty about how easy her birth was!

I just wish it worked out that way for everyone!

Sarah - posted on 09/01/2010

5,465

31

344

I think the whole thing about an epidural is that it's an OPTION for women.
When I was pregnant with my first, I always said there was NO WAY I would ever want an epidural! By the time I got to Bristol hospital, I was absolutely in pieces, the midwife there had to literally shake me to get a hold of myself. I thought I was too far gone to even have an epidural. Luckily, I wasn't, because god knows what sort of state I would have been in if I hadn't been able to get some rest and calm myself down.

Out of all the people that I know that have given birth, I don't think anyone has gone in and said "I want an epidural straight away" I highly doubt any doctors/midwives would say "yes" to that straight away anyway! I don't think it's very common (from my experience anyway) for other pain management NOT to be used first.

Some people feel like they need an epidural, some people don't. I don't think ANYONE has the right to decide that other than the person in question. Sure midwives can try to help women try to cope in other ways before resorting to offering an epidural, but if that woman is agonising pain that SHE CAN'T cope with, then an epidural should absolutely be offered.

Surely it's just a case of common sense as to the use of an epidural, on the part of the mother AND the midwives/doctors. :)

[deleted account]

Kati i never said my 45 min labour was easy - I went from nothing to full on hard labour in under 20 mins, I agree with Laura I did not know what had hit me, and the realisation that the baby was coming NOW not in a few hours was quite scary!

BTW I had pre-eclampsia and was in hospital for 17 days prior to having my son so I think I deserve a nice labour as I was really really ill for a month beforehand (and the fact I suffered throughout my entire pregnancy with morning sickness amongst other issues) and the fact that I had had to work harder than most to get prgenant in the first place (I was not supposed to be able to have babies). I think it is fair that I have at least one 'easy' aspect from the conceiving, pregnancy and labour!

Edit to add: BTW I don't think that you deserve a nice/ easy birth any less than me I just re-read that post and it sounds as if I deserve it more than you I don't! But I do think everyone deserves at least one easy part of the process (I hope that makes sense I am babbling now) :-)

[deleted account]

a former friend of mine said that my PND was caused by my epidural...you can see why she's my former friend

Jenny - posted on 09/01/2010

4,426

16

129

I had my stomach sliced open and was on my feet a few hours later too. Some women recover faster than others do.



I would never be in favour of withholding something that could make a woman's experience more enjoyable/ less traumatic/ more fulfilling, whatever it may be, because of something as silly as money. You moms do what you need to do to get your babies out.

Iris - posted on 09/01/2010

1,993

29

51

I stood up within an hour after I had Gabriella. Put the first diaper on her and dresses her, winked at my husband who just witnessed a whole baby come out of my vagina and said to him with a big smile: "We should try for another one.." lol!

Ez - posted on 08/31/2010

6,569

25

237

Where are the labour fairies when you need them Carol?



My Mum had easy births (which was only fair since she had severe HG and pregnancy nearly killed her). Five hours of hard labour, 20mins of pushing.. here's your 10+lb baby. No drugs. No tears/stitches. And she was up off the bed having a shower within the hour. This was what I was hoping for. Instead I got a 20hr labour (about 13 of which was HARD - 90sec apart), vomiting, fainting, 2.5hrs pushing and eventual (unnecessary) forceps with spinal, episiotomy and 3rd degree tear. Yuck. I remember being wheeled back to my room afterwards saying 'well I hope Milla likes being an only child because I am NEVER doing that again' lol. Luckily, it's true when they say you forget.

Charlie - posted on 08/31/2010

11,203

111

409

In the end birth doesnt make the baby or the parent its the shortest part of being a parent , we all have different ideas on the perfect birth for ourselves , however someone chooses to give birth should be up to them , we each have a choice to make ,we all know our own strengths and weaknesses and its not for anyone else to say what we should or should not be doing during birth as long as birth is done safely .

Jenny - posted on 08/31/2010

4,426

16

129

When I chose to have a 2nd C section many people told me I would never be a "real woman" if I never experienced labour. After reading stories of you guys getting your lady bit's ripped out I'm TOTALLY ok with that. Labour is overrated. I had two healthy babies, that's all that matters to me.

Johnny - posted on 08/31/2010

8,686

26

322

My cousin got up in the night because she thought she had to poop and she had a baby instead (in the toilet). Oops. It took her weeks to get over the shock and she ended up with a pretty severe case of PND which was exacerbated by guilt.

I had 53 hours of labor, pre-eclampsia, a 3rd degree tear, and a hemorrhage. But healed nicely and was happy as a clam after.

Personally, I think somewhere right in the middle would be great. Say, 6 hours, a few intense contractions, 15 minutes of pushing (in a tub preferably), and pop, there's the baby (who does the breast crawl and latches on perfectly). So if anyone can arrange that for me, I'd appreciate it ;-P

Isobel - posted on 08/31/2010

9,849

0

286

but actually...for the record, going that fast is terrifying ( felt like I was tied to a train track, watching the train come while people beat me with bats...then the train came (and it was invisible and didn't really hurt) ...still scary as hell though

Isobel - posted on 08/31/2010

9,849

0

286

hey Kati... mwah! right to your back crack ;P



it was only 45 minutes of "actual" labour after all :)

Ez - posted on 08/31/2010

6,569

25

237

Kati I second your call for women with fast labours to kiss your back crack!! I have a friend who has two children - no more than a couple of hours active labour for either, and pushed for 4mins with the first, and 1min with the second. How is that fair? lol

Katherine - posted on 08/31/2010

65,420

232

5195

I think it is one of the best debate threads we've had since I've joined DM.

Mary - posted on 08/31/2010

3,348

31

123

Well, Katherine, on the bright side, my husband is extremely appreciative of this thread. It's an outlet for my love of debate, which means I leave him in peace to snooze in front of the tv ;-)

Becky - posted on 08/31/2010

2,892

44

93

Kati - mine was like really bad menstrual cramps. Seriously, with my second, I almost didn't make it to the hospital, because I couldn't figure out if I was in labor or was just going to have diarreah! (Don't throw things at me!!)
I've had gallstones too, and for me, they were definitely worse than labor! The first time I had an attack, I thought I was having a heart attack!

Katherine - posted on 08/31/2010

65,420

232

5195

@ Mary, I said it once and I'll say it again: This thread needs to be locked up---------->throw away the key. My GOD, it's nutty isn't it?

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

8,657

30

321

all you people with you 45 minute labors can kiss my back crack (yes i said back crack cause i have no ass, lol)!!!! goodness labor is really drastically different for each person. i've heard people say it was like really bad menstrual cramps. i would've LOVED that. my labor felt like my abdomen was trying to turn itself inside out each time i contracted. the most painful thing ever in the history of the world!!! and those who push one time and the baby slides right on out??? garrgh!! my sister informed me that with my 3rd one, he would just slide on out-so wrong, wrong wrong.

Mary - posted on 08/31/2010

3,348

31

123

Thank you, Krista...I will now be more than happy to be your nurse for your next delivery!

Dana - posted on 08/31/2010

11,264

35

495

Psh, you'd need to, to numb yourself from the insanity of this thread! ;)

Mary - posted on 08/31/2010

3,348

31

123

Dear god in heaven, never before have I had my words so carefully scrutinized and analyzed. Perhaps I need to start preparing my posts with the same careful consideration I would a doctoral dissertation! Unfortunately, as the mother of a toddler who works two nights a week, I'm not sure that's possible =(

The funny thing about all this is that my nights at work would be a hell of a lot easier if EVERY woman got an epidural the minute she walked in the door. I spent the better part of 12 hours last night encouraging and supporting someone who was trying to go without one...it meant the differnce between being at her side continually (part of which was applying counterpressure while she AND I were in the shower)...and sitting at the nurses station chatting with my friends in between those half hour checks had she just gotten the damned epidural and slept until she was fully dilated.

I am obviously an idiot...but I am pleased to say she made it, and pushed out a beautiful baby boy at 0654 without any meds. It was the birth she and her husband wanted, and I'm beyond pleased for them all =) I didn't "force" her to go without...I just helped carry her through her weaker moments of fear and self doubt.

Obviously, I am a dumbass for thinking that not everyone should get an epidural...it really would make my job so much less challenging and demanding. So I retract my earlier statements...please, make it mandatory that everyone be either electively sectioned or induced, and epidurals for ALL!!

(In case it was unclear, I am being facetious.)

[deleted account]

I have to agree with Mary on the 'forcing' issue. I was induced with my son and had immense piggybacking contractions (I never had a name for it before thanks Krista) with back labour, for which I desparately wanted meds for the only one I could have at the time was Pethodine (only 2cm) BUT I had to be monitored for at least 10 mins (fetal heartrate) due to the induction. They could not get a trace because I was jigging about all over the place so I could not have the meds. After me demanding pethadine several times my midwife decided to put a monitor on babies head - where she found I was 4cm and could have gas and air. If I had not been forced to wait I may have had pethadine - which I did not really want but I was in agony and at that point it would have been my only option.

Also as I only had a 45 min active labour even if I had wanted one I could not have had an epi - the anesthetist would not have got to me quick enough!

So I was forced to wait/ not have certain pain relief (even though I did not want the pethadine or epi) because of situation.

Jodi - posted on 08/31/2010

3,562

36

3907

"I think the word "forced" was the problem -- it implied that it was a PERSON doing the forcing."

Possibly that was misinterpreted, but I'll be honest, I didn't read it that way, I just read it as circumstances forcing people into the situation :) That made sense to me.

Jodi - posted on 08/31/2010

3,562

36

3907

@ Christina, am I to assume I was right, and you CAN'T produce information about that research you were talking about because there isn't any?

Krista - posted on 08/31/2010

12,562

16

847

That's how I read it too -- there have been situations where a woman has not been able to have an epidural, due to lack of time, or due to some other circumstances. And I don't doubt that in some of those situations, the woman has surprised herself by how well she was able to manage.

I think the word "forced" was the problem -- it implied that it was a PERSON doing the forcing.

Dana - posted on 08/31/2010

11,264

35

495

LOL, I was just going to explain what I thought Mary meant by that but, you've beat me to it Laura.

Just goes to show that before personally attacking anyone, we should always make sure we are reading it right.

Ez - posted on 08/31/2010

6,569

25

237

Exactly Laura. There are no guarantees and women need to be prepared for a natural birth. I'm sure that's what Mary was referring to.

[deleted account]

WOW! That was a very long, interesting, informative read but now I'm too tired to comment. Time to get dinner ready. ;)

Isobel - posted on 08/31/2010

9,849

0

286

I was "forced" to go without an epideral...by mother nature...no time for one if you only take 1.5 hours.



Plenty of other people have been "forced" by circumstance (unavailability).



it's never the choice of the nurse whether or not a woman can have it...always between nature, the doctor, and the availability of the procedure.

C. - posted on 08/31/2010

4,125

35

242

"Most of us can, if forced, withstand more pain than we really know"



So, when you said that, Mary.. Who else would be forcing the woman in labor to go w/o any kind of pain medication? The nurses and/or doctors. Like I said before, women should NOT be forced. Unless the pain meds are somehow going to make the labor worse, which is more rare than it helping, they should not be forced to do something they don't want to do. That was my point.



"I stated that most of us are stronger than we give ourselves credit for"



I agree with that statement. However, when you are saying that women can handle if forced, that came across to me as maybe they should be forced and then they'd be surprised at what they are actually capable of.



"I can only assume that I am the recipient of some missplaced anger on you part."



No. I have no misplaced anger at all. I had to go to the ACC Saturday and may have been a little irritable since then after they gave me something to take for what I had, but not necessarily angry. I do apologize, though, that I implied you were a bad nurse. I'm sure you are quite wonderful at what you do.

[deleted account]

I had pitocin. Didn't do anything for me. The contractions I had on it (for about 5 hours) weren't TOO much worse than the ones I had already had constantly for 3 months. The doctors never believed someone could have a 7 minute contraction til they had me hooked up to all those monitors though......

Krista - posted on 08/31/2010

12,562

16

847

Hah! I thought the same thing, Lynn! I figured, "Well, all these women who have had kids AND kidney stones say that the kidney stones are worse, so I should be able to handle childbirth, no problem!"

Famous last frigging words. While in pain from the kidney stones, I was moaning and keening like a wounded animal. While in labour, I was shrieking.

Lynn - posted on 08/31/2010

22

30

0

I've never had gallstones but I have had kidney stones. That was the worst pain I had ever felt...until I had my son. I remember my doctor telling me that if I could handle the pain of kidney stones, I could handle having a baby. Weeelll, my back labor was beyond anything I've ever experienced pain-wise. It's was unbelievably painful and I am so thankful that I was able to have an epidural.

Join Circle of Moms

Sign up for Circle of Moms and be a part of this community! Membership is just one click away.

Join Circle of Moms