One or a dozen

Veronica - posted on 12/15/2009 ( 23 moms have responded )

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Not really a huge topic - but why is there always a big issue when it comes to the number of children a person has or wants? We are going on baby number six right now - and we are getting negative feed back all the time from friends and family.

I had one friend tell me that i better get my tubes tied, that this is way too many kids.



What the heck is the deal anyways?

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?? - posted on 12/16/2009

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Yes I have to say that the college aspect is another bit of the financial means that should be considered. Before I never would have thought of it but recently I've been kind of forced into thinking about it. I am 1 of 6 kids.



My 2 oldest siblings are half sisters and the younger of the 2 was emancipated when she was 15 after her mom died of cancer and she didn't want to uproot her life to come live with us - she put herself through college and absolutely refused help from our parents (she's now a paralegal). The older of the two was a dipstick and waste of life - she still is. But then my parents had us 4 to worry about.



My brother went straight from highschool to college and after about 3 years of college and almost done all of the courses he needed in order to transfer he was jumped at work by 16 guys and the only injury he got... was to his eye... brass knuckles shattered his eyebrow bone, his cheek bone and put a 1 inch gash in his eyeball... so the line of university that he wanted to pursue... went bust, he wouldn't be able to keep up what he had to do (weight training, lifting, fitness, he wanted to open a gym) in order to be successful.



So he had to change his major. He decided to continue with sports and become a kineisologist - which meant, another about 4 years of university; which ended up being 6 years because he had to wait to get on the list, wait to get into certain courses that were popular. So he went to college at 18... and he is now 28 and just graduated with a BS in Kineisology + about 8 other degree's in business admin, sports ed, and some other things too.



Student loans, mortgages on the house, loans from my grandparents are what have financed it all - and he's the only one of us that has gone on to pursue post-secondary education. My parents were very unprepared for the financial aspect of post secondary and they are now severely in debt from helping my brother go to college and university. If all 4 of us had decided to go onto college the way my brother did - my parents would not have been able to help.



I'll also add that my brother also worked full time through out his college / university career. When he was in college he started out working at Canadian Tire, and then he did a bodygaurd course and started bouncing (which is when he was jumped - fucked up thing about that - he was jumped at a bachelor party for our own cousins wedding so he knew ALL of the guys that did it... dumbasses) and then when he moved to the coast he got on at Panago Pizza as a delivery guy and he has been workin there since (so like 7 years now). He also volunteers with mentally and physically handicapped people with fitness and weight and sports training.



Only now, 10 years later, is he started gettin his dream off the ground. Him and 4 other Olympic trainee's are opening a gym together that will specialize in each of their area's of expertise. He'll be paying off his student loans for a long time though...



Sorry for the long ass story lol just thought I'd lay it out there as to why I think it's incredibly important to think about post secondary and not JUST makin sure kids have clean clothes and more than bread and water.

Veronica - posted on 12/19/2009

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Jo: Im not offended. I think you and Loureen bring a very important point to the table - responsibility - and same with you Amie -- it comes down to responsibility. I guess I dont mean that the government is entirely responsible - there are tons of factors, and jobs aren't reliable enough to stay off of assistance either. I know that is still comes down to choice too.

Responsibility is the number one factor with family, jobs, wellfare, environment, etc. etc.

There are so many aspects to look at - I can't think of all in one post - but thank you for pointing out the aspect of Choice Amie. You are right - I guess i didnt mean i entirely blame the government for everything - just that i don't always look at the entire situation. But the government is what is hindering people too. (at least that is how i feel) the tax raises, cost of living is outrageous, gas prices are always crazy -- this isn't happening because of us at home - its the government - why? cause of their mistakes and we have to pay for them, go homeless because of them, and starve because of them. - BUt i will leave that discussion for another time.



Wow - i guess i opened a can of worms...



As far as individual care - maybe there are times where it's not 100%, super mom of the day -- but what i know of myself, is that i know who my children are, things they like, their personalities. My husband and I are always doing 'inventory' on our kids - what i mean by that is - when one presents an issue - whether it is good or bad - we always discuss what is going on, how to handle it, new approaches, etc. We are very active in all of our children's well -being. When someone acts out - then we go back and figure out where the behavior is coming from and correct it. And we use a lot of appraising and love too -- we allow our children to explore and be their individual selves - but living by a set guideline in rules/manners/values/morals. I have no doubts that my children are each getting quality time with us. Its the responsibility that we take as parents to make sure that not only physicaly needs are met, but their emotional needs are met as well, and we take this very seriously, as we want strong, healthy minded individuals - that are confident and doing the best to their potential and ability.



As for the environment - i understand that concern - but the entire population isn't going to have tons of kids - everyone is designed differently - and everyone's desires are different. I think having lots of kids is the least of our worries for this planet. Teaching our 20 kids how to take care of the planet would be more beneficial than have just one child - or none - to save the planet - LOL



Ok - im done for a minute....

Amie - posted on 12/16/2009

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I agree with the other ladies. So long as you have the means and do not need help to raise the children then it's really no big deal how many kids you have.

Especially Dana's point about college. I understand some parents think working your way through college is something all children should do. I don't. College/University classes are hard enough to keep up with all the assignments given, a job would just be more time taken away. A part time job for extra spending money is one thing. FT college and a FT job to pay for it is just not right.

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Elizabeth - posted on 05/23/2012

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The "deal" is that we live in a time in human history referred to by some as the "culture of death". (400,000 American babies killed by abortionists each year since 1975 you do the math). A time where a child is not viewed as a blessing with unlimited potential but as a burden or an inconvenience. We, as a culture are rampant consumers who waste, pollute & are destroying the planet. Canadians & Americans are the biggest polluter/consumers of all, leaving a mess far and above what's necessary per person. If everyone on the planet lived the way North Americans do, the entire ecosystem would collapse pretty quickly. So, basically what happens is instead of cleaning up our act & sharing the wealth with the impoverished (by OUR policies & wars) third world, or living more cleanly and simply with better use & distribution of resources, we demand that everyone embrace the contraceptive/anti-child mentality. So, you and those who have more children are bucking a "trend". That is going to make some uncomfortable - especially if deep down they would have loved to have more children themselves and are conflicted about their own decision to contracept and sterilize themselves. You are a pioneer in a sense, doing things differently than the rest of the "herd". It makes sense that you would be attacked for that. I say, just be strong. You will be very thankful in your old age that you had more than a couple of children especially if our pensions are gone and the economy melts down totally as some predict. Your children will be able to help you and will enrich your life more than you even know.
They will be a sorely needed part of the future and the future work force as the next generation is already outnumbered by aging baby boomers. Good luck to you.

?? - posted on 12/19/2009

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Even if you teach your 20 children to take care of the planet - your family is still 22 people using the planets resources, creating waste, and probably eventually reproducing as well - instead of just 3-8 people per family (2 adults + 1-6 kids - as an example). Even an 8 person family.. that's over a dozen less people using, creating and reproducing.



You can argue that not EVERYONE will, and not everyone does now... but there is a sense of responsibility for this earth and our limited use of it that keeps a lot of people from doing that -- because it is completely inarguable that 22 people x X amount of families feeling that it's their right to have 20 kids is a very destructive force to put on our earth and our limited resources --- let alone that it is more responsible or a better idea than limiting your 'destiny' to reproduce 20 times...



I think that it's our duty to use common sense and be responsible for our earth. You can teach your 20 kids to recycle and be earth friendly but at the end of the day that's still over a dozen more people on this earth.







Another point you made about making sure each child gets quality time -- you can't argue that the more children you have the less time you will have to give that quality time and I think that is a HUGE issue for people. There will always ONLY be 24 hours in a day - children need to sleep, you need to sleep - so even at say you sleep for 8 hours in a day ... that leaves 16 hours of time that can be used for quality time with your children. Factor in daily responsibilities and school and friends and work and play - that leaves very limited time for quality time everyday with each child. Thier essential needs may be met but the more and more and more children you have the less and less and less time you have to spend with them for that quality time.



I have NO doubt that people can have 6-8 kids with no problems, well rounded individuals -- even 12 kids or even the Duggars............ but we as humans have to be very careful when it comes to reproducing at such a rate... the world hasn't become over populated because people want to have children - the world has become overpopulated because a lot of people didn't know how to stop having babies (no birth control, abortion is a sin, no education on the matter, women were made out to be baby factories, having your tubes tied wasn't an option, etc etc etc) and now that these options are ALL there for us ladies, we have to be responsible for reproducing responsibly. We KNOW there are women out there who have no sense of responsibility and reproduce just because they can't keep their legs shut - so the women that have heads on their shoulders need to step up and be responsible.







And all of it leads right back to the financial aspect of reproducing double digit kids -- it is beyond difficult in this economy to be certain that you will be able to provide for your children to attend post secondary and it is just as unreliable that they will be able to have a job & go to school -- and be on programs for assistance -- when that time comes. Financial responsibility may legally end at 18 but parental responsibility is still there. The more children you have, the less financial / post secondary security they will have.



I think it's a HUGE decision to have a large family and one that can not be taken lightly by anyone. I don't think it is anyone's business directly that someone chooses to have a large family but there will always be people who don't understand or even just don't know the circumstances and that makes people weary. Especially when it comes to the care and well being of so many little people.

Amie - posted on 12/18/2009

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Quoting Veronica:


There is one thing i don't agree with - i don't agree with complaints about supporting worthless parents - and blaming it entirely on those parents -- the blame needs to be had on and taken out on the government for allowing it. I do know a lady, who is capable of getting a job - her children are 4, 6, 9 and 10 - all in school - yes she is single - but where in there is keeping her from getting a job to at least help support what is going on at home, rather than being entirely dependant on the wellfare? And why is the government allowing this at all? Why isn't she being put through programs to help her get a job/schooling?? That's what the bigger question is. We'd probably save more tax money getting people on their feet, rather than keeping them dependant on the dang system. Anyone catching my drift?! lol



Blame the government you say? Really?

I was a single mother for a time. I got help when I needed it. It wasn't for long though because I treated bettering my education and finding gainful employment like a job. I worked at it. I didn't just squeeze it in when I could. It is not the government's job to hand me a job. It is not the government's job to make my life as easy as pie. It is not the government's job to take care of me. The Canadian government does a lot of good to help all of our citizens. I used it when I needed to but I never ONCE used the excuse for any short coming I may have encountered as the government's fault.

If in any aspect at all the government could be construed to be blamed in this type of scenario is right now in this time because the economy is in the crapper. They are working to pull out of it though. That is STILL not entirely their fault either. I feel for your friend Veronica, I really do. But blaming the government is a piss poor excuse for ANY person to use. I am fully willing to help those who need it, I pay taxes and remain living in Canada because of those ideals. I do not support a person sitting on welfare because the government is not helping her find work or putting her through school. If it is truly that important she would find a way. If it is that important to ANY person, they find a way.

?? - posted on 12/18/2009

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I just want to interject - going off of what Loureen was saying and with your comment here; But in the end, isn't the way I live my life, my business and no one else's in the end -- living your life is indeed your business and only yours -- but the issue comes from the fact that your 'business' and your 'life' affect the lives of the x amount of children you decide to have.



And from that stand point it is only natural to be suspicious of the circumstances because people who do have children know how difficult it can be at times to give any individual child every care that they need in this world as they are growing.



I think the judgement comes from people who have their idea of what is an acceptable amount of care taking for a child and knowing how much they are able to care for their children and they see it as putting yourself, and each child in a position to MAYBE go without.



As well, if everyone were to have that same mindframe of possibly being destined to have 20 children and be that as it may if that is your destiny; each person to have 20 children - 5 families of 20 children, it is nearly impossible for each of those 100 children to get the attention, care, affection and physical, financial and mental attention that they need in order for ALL of them to be productive, completely healthy members of society.



As well, our earth only has so much resources, space and it's already being completely abused by our species -- if everyone felt they should have 20 children just because they figure why the hell not it's their right -- earth would not be able to survive the abuse it would take afterwards.



I think it is our human duty to be responsible while pro-creating. We only have one earth and it's our responsibility to make sure it's taken care of so that our childrens childrens childrens will be able to enjoy it, and if all of us have 20 kids, earths beauty will be gone long before it's time, and it's already on the path to being destroyed with our current population.





I'm sorry if that comes off as an attack on anyone, it's not meant to be - and I stick to what I was saying before - if you can care for your children, have at it, but with every aspect of life comes responsibility and that includes respecting where we live and our earth and making sure that we do what we can to protect it as much as we need to use it.

Veronica - posted on 12/18/2009

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I really have soo much to say on this topic - but what it would amount to is conviction and judgement towards others. My thing is this: In my and my husbands views and beliefs - children are a blessing in our marriage. Im still trying to figure out - when the Lord says to be fruitful - just how fruitful we are to be! lol I'm not going to go on a tangent and literally pop out 20 children - but I honestly don't know what is in my personal destiny. If i am destined to pop out 20 children - who's place is it to condemn and judge me, because i was meant to have 20 children in my life?

This goes for anything in anyone's life. Some are destined for no children, one child, or ten. Why is there always a fight about it , or nasty comments, or judgement passed? Yes there are people that give it a bad name/look -- but that doesn't mean its the same for everyone. My thing is, I live my life - how I am going to live it. The triumphs and downfalls I have are between me and my Lord -- no one else. (Of course if its abuse or something, def. intervention has to be made) But in the end, isn't the way I live my life, my business and no one else's in the end?



There is one thing i don't agree with - i don't agree with complaints about supporting worthless parents - and blaming it entirely on those parents -- the blame needs to be had on and taken out on the government for allowing it. I do know a lady, who is capable of getting a job - her children are 4, 6, 9 and 10 - all in school - yes she is single - but where in there is keeping her from getting a job to at least help support what is going on at home, rather than being entirely dependant on the wellfare? And why is the government allowing this at all? Why isn't she being put through programs to help her get a job/schooling?? That's what the bigger question is. We'd probably save more tax money getting people on their feet, rather than keeping them dependant on the dang system. Anyone catching my drift?! lol



Anyways- thanks for your input ladies -- you've all been helpful.



PS - as for why anyone would want a lot of kids -- for us, its because we Love each other, and we want a big family -- we love our children, our home is so filled, and we wanted more of that - that's fullfilling in our home/lives. Its a joy.

Charlie - posted on 12/18/2009

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Playing devils advocate , There is also the aspect of environmental impact of having loads of kids if 7 billion people ( rough guesstimate of world POP.)have 5 kids each that's a huge devastating impact on the planet .

La - posted on 12/18/2009

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If you can handle the responsibilities of having a large family go for it! All these large reality TV families have tarnished the idea of how functional a large family COULD be...well I think the Duggars are pretty balanced, but I think that has more to do with their religious convictions than their parenting skills alone.

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Congrats on #6! I don't think it's anyone's business how many children a couple decides to have. Now if you're popping out a dzoen babies form 9 different fathers and living off the system, well then I'd have something to say. But when you and your husband decide that you can emotionally, physically, and financially provide for your family then it should not matter how many your have, whether through birth or adoption.

But I have to say I empathize with you on the opposite end of the spectrum. We decided that 1 child is plenty for us and we are a very happy family of 3. My son is well rounded, participates in activities, and does not need a sibling. He is close in age to his cousins and sees them several times a week. I am sick to death of people telling me that he NEEDS a sibling because he wil be lonely and spoiled. I actually used one of the comments that I heard on CoM: "Then can I borrow your uterus?" That shut her up!

Jaime - posted on 12/16/2009

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I find it frustrating at times to see families with lots of kids because I often wonder why there is a need or a want to have so many. I come from a large family (I am one of six) but I only have one child myself and no desire to have another in the future. Aside from 'reality' t.v. that paints a chaotic picture of large families, I can't help but think that there comes a point when having children is a 'just because' in families that are already counting double digit offspring...
I would never make comments to people that have a lot of children, nor would I snicker or sneer because I cannot change the fact that they already have many children. I do feel that there is no longer a need to mass procreate, as history shows it started out being a means of securing offspring to carry on a family name and heritage, whereby the death of a child was not as greatly mourned and instead the family carried on with another child. The concept of childhood didn't even exist until well into the 1800's...before then children worked and contributed to the economic success of their family. Today children are viewed as the "next generation of doctors, politicians, scientists and teachers, etc..." so we hold their futures in high regard (making it less likely for families to have large quantities of children). So with education, finances and well-being as main components to deciding whether or not to have a child...how can a family with 8 or 10 or 20 children maintain the security of their childrens' future on all fronts? It just seems impossible to me...

Betsy - posted on 12/16/2009

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Quoting dana:

I think it all depends if you are able to support them emotionally and financially but, by financially I mean college. Not just putting clothes and food on the table.



I agree with that, and we have one in college now.  With how our family is with kids' ages, we figured out between preschool to college, we will be paying tuitions without break for 36 straight years. Oldest started preschool in '93, and twins should graduate college in 2029.

Dana - posted on 12/16/2009

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I think it all depends if you are able to support them emotionally and financially but, by financially I mean college. Not just putting clothes and food on the table.

Jodi - posted on 12/16/2009

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My parents had 5 children, and this was back in the 70s. I was the oldest, and I was 8 when my youngest brother was born, so we were all very close together. My mum used to get comments all the time like "haven't you worked out what caused it yet" and "are you Catholic or something?". Its not fair, and it is incredibly judgemental.



I can understand what Loureen is saying - I don't think anyone should have more children if they can't support them themselves, and have to rely on others. That is selfish.

Charlie - posted on 12/16/2009

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As long as you can provide for them financially , physically and emotionally then by all means go frth AND REPRODUCE :)



My mum is one of 14 , she loves her huge family , not for me but her parents were able to provide on the other hand i know one particular family who has nine kids , NO MONEY , constantly asking for money off other family members who have their own kids to care for and yet they want more !



That particular circumstance is a little selfish .

But like i said if you can , then do !

Betsy - posted on 12/15/2009

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Quoting Veronica:

Thanks Jo - you are right - and I do understand the concerns of some family and friends. Its just hard taking it time and again. We've been getting the same crap since our second child 'are you done now?' or 'why the hell are you having another one for?" -- its been ugly -- just thought it was something to ask about - hear some opinions on the matter.
But yes, we are going steady - hubby working his butt off, and me building my business. And with two in school - it helps with spending time with the littler ones - and then the older ones after school. So its a nice split through the week ;) Dinner time is the funnest - listening to all their stories and answering all their silly questions!



I don't usually get rude comments. Part of that is probably because we really spaced our kids out so we could get our educations and for financial reasons, so family and friends know that. Our oldest was 7 with #2, 16 with #3 and 17 with #4 & 5. But we do get funny comments. The last was from a rarely seen relative of my husband's when we walked in with the two older ones and carrying 3 toddlers. He told us we needed to get a tv in our bedroom. Hubby was quick and said we did, but it gets porn ;-)

Veronica - posted on 12/15/2009

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Thanks Jo - you are right - and I do understand the concerns of some family and friends. Its just hard taking it time and again. We've been getting the same crap since our second child 'are you done now?' or 'why the hell are you having another one for?" -- its been ugly -- just thought it was something to ask about - hear some opinions on the matter.

But yes, we are going steady - hubby working his butt off, and me building my business. And with two in school - it helps with spending time with the littler ones - and then the older ones after school. So its a nice split through the week ;) Dinner time is the funnest - listening to all their stories and answering all their silly questions!

?? - posted on 12/15/2009

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I think it comes down to different things for different people - whether it's financial, emotional, physical needs and wants being unmet or if overpopulation is the issue. Everyone has an opinion about this because large families have become some what of a spotlight in recent years with Jon & Kate + 8, 18 Kids & Counting, Table for 12, etc etc etc



I think as long as you are providing the essentials that every child needs - whatever but if you are going to continue having children beyond just a couple, you have to be prepared for some sneers and geers and comments. Not that they're acceptable or valid in saying them - it's just gonna happen lol



With the economy the way it is right now, it's not surprising that people are a lil bit more negative than usual to parents of many children. Babies are expensive and the economy and jobs are very unstable lol



My guess is that your friends and family are more worried than being judgemental. Their worries may not be correct but it's natural for women in particular to worry about the well being of babies, children and their friends. I wish you well V I know you're a good mom and that your children will always get all the love and attention they need :)

Krista - posted on 12/15/2009

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I certainly wouldn't have that many, but I think that anybody who has more than two kids is nuts (as in, "I have no idea how you stay sane with all those kids.") ; )



Seriously, though...as long as you can support your kids, emotionally and financially, then it's nobody's damn business how many you have.



Of course, you're always going to get some people going on about overpopulation, but most industrialized countries are actually experiencing negative growth, so it's not really an issue.



So, if people say anything, just tell them that you're so damned gorgeous that it would be a crime against humanity to limit your genetic material to only two offspring.

Betsy - posted on 12/15/2009

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As long as you can physically, emotionally and financially handle a large family, who cares? We have had 6, 1 stillborn and 5 living children, and I want about 2 more, and that would be more if I wasn't running out of time age-wise. Many feel it is a lot because they can't picture themselves doing it, so they can't imagine why you would. I can't imagine stopping at 1 or 2, but I'm not going to tell people to keep procreating lol. Only you and your husband can decide on your family size.

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