parents only smack when they lose control??

Sal - posted on 08/04/2011 ( 111 moms have responded )

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yesterday i saw some celebreties takling about smacking....the one point that was made was that parents only smack when they lose control of the situation....
while i agree that is true in some cases, i have seen it happen and i know that sometimes a smack makes the parent feel they have done something to manage the situation, and are more smacking out of anger than to decipline the child (and i think these are the parents who feel guilt after a smack)

But i don't think this is nessersarily the case i know it isn't for me, i do smack occationally, (anyone who has followed smacking threads here knows my theory) but i never do it out of anger or frustration, and it is always becasue i feel it is the most effective response to a situation where i feel the child continuing their action will cause them harm and they just aren't listening or understanding (playing with the open fire, running on the road, hand up to the stove) and also a time where the child only not continuing the act becasue they are scred to get smacked just doesn;t bother me as long as they are safe...

so what do you think, is it a lose of control or are you controled? and if you feel you would only smack if you ,lose control, why can;t controlled parents smack when they feel it is approriate just becasue you can't keep it controlled?

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Kate CP - posted on 09/15/2011

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Okay, using discipline is a positive thing. Hitting a person is not positive. It hurts. It hurts their pride, it hurts their body, it hurts their feelings. It does, however, usually make the hitter feel a lot better.

I understand that it's a consequence to a behavior or action. They do x and they get spanked as a punishment. What I find abhorrent is the idea that this is:
a) positive
b) not painful for the child

That's bullshit. It hurts to be spanked. I've been spanked, a lot of people have been spanked and it hurts. To say you (general you) don't do it hard enough to hurt is a crock of shit. If you're spanking your kid you're hurting them: emotionally, physically, psychologically. So if that's how you feel is the best way to parent, that's fine. They are YOUR kids and if spanking works for you, bully for you. But fucking OWN it.

If you spank your kid you're hitting your kid. And hitting hurts. Own it. Know what you're doing and accept it for what it is.

Jenni - posted on 08/05/2011

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I am against spanking my children for a couple of reasons.



What your speaking about Sal, is definitely one of the bigger reasons I am against it.



I came home from a 3 night camping expedition yesterday and find this topic very appropriate for my experience. :s



It was our kids' first camping trip, son (3) and SD (4). We had zero time to relax! We had to move camping sites everyday, which takes about 2 hours to do. So we felt incredibly rushed to do everything. Make meals for the kids, get them ready to go to the beach, showers, preparing meals, bug spray, suntan lotion, attempting to fit 4 people on a queen sized matress, extreme lack of sleep (my son had a few fits in the middle of the night), I had to sleep in the car the first night to give my son room so he would fall back asleep.... STRESSFUL!



To top it all off, all the running around, hikes, swimming, sun and little to no naps left my son highly irritable. He was incredibly whinney and uncooperative. He had multiple #2 accidents to top everything off. :/



I can not even count the number of times I visualized smacking his bottom. Or just screaming at him to "SHUT UP!!!" We were utterly exhausted and at our wits end. Especially, when he woke in the middle of the night screaming and wouldn't go back to sleep. (I have a difficult enough time sleeping when I'm camping).



So it was alll one big reminder of why I don't smack. Because if I did, I would be doing it because *I'm* out of control, because it would make *me* feel better about the situation, because of my *own* frustrations. Even if there were times I could spank as purely a means of discipline, it would just open the door for me to spank when it was more to do with my own feelings than rectifying an unwanted behaviour.



Do I believe parents can do it while in control and not out of anger? Sure. There has to be *some* parents who can do that.



Do I believe 100% of the time it's never out of anger/frustration/loss of control (even repressed anger)? Now that's where you lose me. I have a very difficult time believing that once someone opens that door that they have never been in a situation where they used it while out of control.



Smacking/hitting, yelling are all natural human responses to anger/frustration when we have lost control of those emotions. So to use one of those as a form of discipline is a slippery slope, imo.



I think many parents who spank, merely become desensitized to the act and repress their own emotions during it.



I would say most of the spankings I received when I was a child, my parents seemed in control. But they still left me feeling angry at them and not the negative behaviour that landed me the tanned bottom.



And let's face it, we're human... a lot of our children's negative behaviours frustrate us or make us angry. Have I given timeouts when angry? Sure. Of course. So I have a very difficult time believing that parents who spank are never angry when implemented their measure of discipline. It's natural for us to have slip ups while angry and frustrated, to react before we think in the heat of the moment. Why would it be any different with spanking?



I also believe that if it was really effective at stopping a negative behaviour, I would become lazy and use it far too often. It requires no critical thinking to devise an appropriate measure of discipline for a particular behaviour. It's quick and efficient. Probably for some children doesn't require as much repeatition to deter an unwanted behaviour.



But I think every negative behaviour should be viewed as an *opportunity* to teach a lesson. And the more time and effort you put in to teach that lesson, the more your children will take away from it, learn from it and stay with them for life.



Discipline (teaching) how to be happy, well-adjusted, positive descion-making adults is all of our end goals. I just feel the process of teaching why they shouldn't engage in an unwanted behaviour is far more important than immediately putting an end to it. And is inhibited by fear of physical punishment. They don't engage in the behaviour because *you* don't want them to, not necessarily because they understand why they shouldn't.

Ez - posted on 08/04/2011

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I can never understand this claim. I don't smack, and the biggest reason (apart from the moral issue of physically dominating/harming a much smaller person) is that I *know* it would be out of anger. We have talked about this before, but I have been tempted at times to smack my 2.5yo. What preludes that temptation? Complete frustration and sometimes anger. So I just simply refuse to go there.



It makes zero sense to me that parents claim to smack when not angry or frustrated. If you have that control, or you wait until you regain it, surely you have time to consider other ways of discipline?



Edited to fix typo

Jaime - posted on 09/15/2011

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You can't debate that spanking is a positive thing because spanking is a negative action. It's an action that delivers physical, unwanted force from one person to another. That's not arguable. Spanking is not positive and it's not discipline. Spanking is punishment. If you choose to punish your children and use negative methods that involve physical force, then at the very least you need to recognize how utterly useless the technique is for preparing children for the realities of the world. We don't get away with physically assaulting another person...there are always consequences and depending on the severity of the abuse, those consequences can be life-altering. Asserting a finite observation as to the mental state of a child that is spanked, is incredibly smug considering that the one who claims they are doing no damage is the one weilding all the power. While spanking might not be intended to abuse, it is very much an abuse of power. We are adults taking care of smaller, less mentally and emotionally developed children. How is it that some of us can look at these small beings and proceed to deliver forceful punishment all in the name of parenting. What's worse is that some people see fit to punish very young children. Children that cannot possibly comprehend the level of expectations that they are required to rise to as soon as they begin to explore the exterior world. A 9-month-old baby bites mommy and it couldn't possibly be because she's teething or because she was curious to know what it felt like to bite down on something...nope, that requires a bite back or a tap on the hand/mouth to make sure baby knows that what she did was horribly, horribly wrong! What I've learned in the 2.5 years that I've been a member of CoMs is that parents have to be open-minded and willing to accept that they don't have all the answers. It makes me very uneasy to think that there are so many people that still see true value in spanking. How can a child learn discipline if the person teaching them lacks discipline. You cannot teach what you do not know, and you cannot know what you refuse to understand!

Jodi - posted on 08/05/2011

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I'm really confused. If you don't want to hurt your daughter, why do you spank her? I mean, if spanking is going to be a punishment, it is supposed to hurt, right? And if you aren't going to hurt them, then what is the point?

111 Comments

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Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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I...uhm...I have no words. None. My flabber has been thoroughly gasted. Wow.

Minnie - posted on 09/16/2011

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This is probably tearing you apart but it's driving me crazy:

We say "OK you DON'T have to" not "ok you not have to." That's the second time I've read that in one of your posts.

*attack done* Sorry.

[deleted account]

No you don't you need to stop talking in riddles, maybe then people wouldn't have to challenge you so often because they would have an idea what you're trying to say. You are not being victimised we are trying to understand your posts. Oh and rude and hateful comments are regularly challenged regardless of who there from.

Charlie - posted on 09/16/2011

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Nope that will make the font bigger not the joke clearer.

Sheesh no one is tearing you apart , Dramatic much ?

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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So do I need to spell my post in all caps so it is clear for you. Ya know insted of tearing me apart on these post ment to debate issues and not America3437 send me a message I will gladly respond!

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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yeah but no matter what I say some still find it ... oh forget it ..it's like beating a dead horse! Challenged is one thing but I read other post where women have been rude or hateful and nothing is said to them... just sayin!

Charlie - posted on 09/16/2011

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Its not that they cannot accept it America its that no one understands it.

Back to what Laura said a while ago about calm spankers.

Do you know whats worse than angry spankers ? Calm spankers , they're like the Dexters of the parenting world.

[deleted account]

That's part of being in a debate group if you don't like being challenged and debating your beliefs/ opinions/ feelings then this isn't the group for you, it's not personal when we disagree with someone it's just debate! It's how we roll around these parts.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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I like riddles..lol... like i said not everyone can accept my sarcisam but that ok you not have to! I am sorry if I misunderstood your comment. and there really was no snide undertone that just me! I tend to get defensive when I am challanged evry time I post but guess that the fun part...lol....

[deleted account]

You talk in riddles america3437, you come across as very defensive and often quite rude with your delivery, but hey that's just my perception.

Thank-you for explaining your post, I can see that it wasn't random now, but whilst the explanation is appreciated the snide undertone wasn't, just to clarify neither I nor Sherri ever said she spanks others kids but not her own, that's you misunderstanding how I phrased my question to Sherri.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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@ Kate it sure sems like you spend alot of time trying to discect my posts and look for reasons to pick them apart. at least that the way I see it from my end. I guess as you usually point out I could be wrong. I have sent you no messages that weren't a direct reply to yours to me!! Look lady we just simply don't agree on most things and that okay but i will NOT be pushed around by you on this site. do you know me personally from somewhere or something because you just seem to have alot of ill words for me. Sorry if i stole your boyfriend in 3rd grade or something to that effect..lol... I just guess you expect me to keep my mouth shut and you wouldn't be the first many have tried no one has succeeded....lol... Most of the time I just kidding but that is just me! I think outside the box(hell most the time I can't even find the fucking box) and tend to be sarcastic and blunt but simple... you don't have to respond to me!!!

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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Also, I don't pick apart posts, I question some of the points you make. I don't fuckin' follow you around from thread to thread and I don't always respond to your posts. I do, however, address you directly, America3437, and I don't send you nasty private messages, either. Which is why I blocked you.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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thanks my blunt sarcasim is hard to accept but for the most part I just kidding not really tryin to offend anyone but kate always attacks my post no matter what i say so i just flow with it.and thank you for joining my circle u have enstilled a shred of hope in me!

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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No apology needed just trying to help you out so you don't feel for lack of a better word ganged up on. It is just posts like that sadly leave yourself open for criticisms.

Trust me I learned the hard way to try and be careful with wording and sometimes I still stumble from time to time.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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well it has been my experience with ms. kate so the fact of the matter is while she may not pick yours apart i think she truley enjoys picking mine apart. That ok I not really mind. I do know how to properly splint with stick and tape but the lol... should let all know it was joke! Sorry to you and others who didn't see the lol part.

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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Kate doesn't typically pick apart posts.

I will say I know you were being sarcastic but you have to be careful because someone may think you would really do such a thing. It just probably wasn't the best post as far as judgment goes.

Trust been there, done that myself.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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Well since I am highly trained in first aid and cpr and have been for 10years now I could apply the sprint properly so no worries.... It was a joke that's why it says lol... dah! I see you are going to pick my post apart again today so let's go girl... I ready!!!!!

Krista - posted on 09/16/2011

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The spanking thing is complicated, needless to say.

I do not allow myself to spank my kid. Why? Because the only times that I've been tempted to spank him have been when I'VE been the one who was tired, or frazzled, or cranky about something else. So if I DID spank him, it'd be because of how I was feeling, not because of what he was doing.

And I don't think I'm in the minority.

Are there some parents who can limit spanking to only certain very rare and serious situations? Yes, of course there are.

But I don't think I'm incorrect in assuming that those parents are the minority -- that most parents who spank will find themselves doing so in situations like the one I described: where they're tired and overwhelmed, and the child has just pushed their last button.

Here in Canada, it is illegal to spank a child younger than 2 or older than 12, and it is illegal to use any sort of implement to spank a child.

This law is valuable. Yes, abuse still takes place, but if spanking cannot be performed with an implement, then you will automatically have fewer cases of children being seriously wounded by otherwise well-meaning parents. As well, if the parents are made by law to use alternative methods of discipline up until the child is two, I would HOPE that they would continue using these methods even afterwards, and would only spank rarely.

The law in the US distresses me greatly. For starters, there is no age restriction, which means that people are legally allowed to spank infants. And goodness knows we've seen people on COM admitting that very act -- spanking an infant or a baby for crying, or for throwing food, or for any other normal baby behaviour. It's heartbreaking. If it were illegal to spank a baby, then maybe these mothers would actually take the time to learn about other ways to handle matters. And secondly, where it is legal to use an implement in many states, that also distresses me. Adults are bigger than children as it is. If an adult spanks a child with their bare hand, it is going to hurt. So what in blue blazes is the point of spanking them with a switch or a paddle? To make it hurt MORE? To leave bruises? It's barbaric.

I don't expect the US to ever outlaw spanking, as its citizens cling fiercely to their rights, even if it's the right to do something wrong. However, I hope that at some point we can at least see restrictions on spanking, to protect children from parents who don't know any better.

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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Well, I really hope that didn't actually happen because that could kill a person if you don't splint a fracture properly.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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@ Laura... I to believe in natural consequences I tell my kids not to climb to high in the tree cause they could fall and they climb to the top fall out and break a leg then we will duck tape a stck on it for a splint and on you will go. No dr needed you should have listened to mom.... lol.....

Merry - posted on 09/16/2011

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Thank you! I knew I thought it was all wrong but I'm glad you agree!
I felt so awful for Eli. And he was having such a rough time because he is teething really badly with molars and his mom is set on weaning him right now and he really wants to nurse because of his teeth but his mom won't so he was getting into trouble all weekend to get her attention.
Broke my heart

Merry - posted on 09/16/2011

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Now if it were my 13 month old, which it was at one point with this exact chair :) I handled it by helping him sit down as I could tell he he was too small to sit on it properly. But if he kept trying to get on and off I just took the chair away since it wasn't an appropriate size for him. And if I hadn't taken it away soon enough and I caught him standing on it with me not helping him I would(and did) grab him by the arm and say careful! You could fall! And while holding his arm I purposefully tipped him off balance so he nearly hit the floor and just held him up by his shoulder so he got a scare but not hurt.
I'm a HUGE believer in natural consequences. In my book the punishment has to be directly related to the offense if possible.
Or the punnishment has to prove to the child WHY mom says this is bad.
So I say no standing on the chair, just because I said so isnt going to make a kid listen! If oil not in the room they would think ok mom doesn't like it when she sees me stand on a chair so since she's not in the room I'm free to do it!
I want to show them why I say no. So I say don't stand on the chair because I don't want him hurt so I show him that standing on the chair could hurt him. And so he knows that it's dangerous and doesn't try it.

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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@Laura ummmm NO NO NO is that not okay in any capacity. Not one single thing she did was okay from the spanking, to the time out to the slap of the hand. Not a single one. It was all 100% done wrong.

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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Actually Kate that has just come back, they did more studies and found it is true. When you get cold and are not dressed properly you are more likely to get sick.

Also when my son gets a simple cold, it sets off is asthma even more and his lungs then can't get rid of the cold. A simple cold for him usually lasts a good 6wks and we have to really watch for pneumonia for him.

But that is so off topic. Your right it doesn't cause the asthma attacks but it really irritates his symptoms. In the severe cold he actually has to remain indoors and can not go outside. Needless to say it is very important for him to be dressed correctly and he is aware of this anyway. In all actually my kids don't typically fight coats, hats, gloves, boots in the cold months, they hate to be cold.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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@ toni............Sherri, from reading this thread I am getting that you are not keen on spanking your kids and although you have permission to and have spanked your daycare kids you would rather not...............This is where I got the whole spank someones elses children response, and............ I beg to differ Sherri...I think you'll find the opposite is true when it comes to people that spank outside of the law. I've seen my friend and my own sister do it. Give their kids a smack on the head or a hard smack on their bare bottom and it absolutely is the worst thing to witness....................... is where I was referring that smacking on the bare bottom was lawful. Have I explained my self clear enough for you?

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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I agree, but a cool autumn day isn't cold enough to trigger an asthma attack.

Merry - posted on 09/16/2011

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Sherri, I just had an experience at a bible study retreat and since you are the most level headed of the spankers I want to ask you if you think this mom did right.

Her son Eli is 13 months. We had a plastic kids chair and Eli was climbing on it and standing on the chair. Now his mom wasn't paying enough attention to notice but the only reason he was climbing and standing is because he is too short to sit in it without climbing up and standing to turn around and sit. So she would be talking and she saw him standing on the chair. So she picks him upnand says no Eli no standing on chairs. As she says this she smacks his butt. She hits him so softly he really really couldnt feel it but only he noise of it was heard. Then she sits with him on her lap and holds his nose pressed up against the corner of a metal bar that is the guard rails around a staircase. He's screaming and fighting her and she is holding his nose onto the corner of the metal rail. Then she releases him and says no standing on the chair now give mommy a kiss. He turns around and hits her in the face. So she smacks his hand as she says No Hitting! Then demands a kiss again and he kisses her.

Not joking one bit, less then 5 minutes later he's standing on the chair again looking all happy staring at his mom trying to get her attention with a proud look on his face. So it repeats, the butt smack, the nose in the railing, the kiss this time with no hitting. At this point I take the chair and put it in another room because I feel sick to my stomach watching him fight her holding his nose to the corner.

Do you think that is acceptable?

I really don't. But figure I'd ask if spanking moms would think this is good.

[deleted account]

There are several Triggers for asthma attacks, cold air being one of them Kate, something that affects one person could not affect another.

[deleted account]

I had a feeling you probably use them sometimes without realising, most people do a lot of it is common sense. With the toy chucking I give him one warning then I remove the toy, it is working he is starting to treat his toys with more respect.

I agree with Kate the best way to teach kids they need that coat is to let them get a tiny bit cold on a cool day (not during a snow storm lol) it removes the argument

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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Uhm...being cold doesn't cause asthma attacks. Being sick can, but being cold doesn't make you sick. That's an old wives' tale.

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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Except they never admit it Kate and then my oldest who has asthma most likely would be admitted to the E.R. no thanks it just isn't a debatable topic.

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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You know, the best way to get a kid to understand WHY coats are important is to let them get cold just once. They'll never fight you again.

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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@Toni if they chuck a toy I told them not too, they get time out. I force them to wear a coat whether they want to or not this is not up for debate. Do I deny dessert for not eating dinner well actually I deny any food until they eat their dinner. If they are hungry they can eat their dinner or go hungry till the next meal (Have no idea if that is logical consequence). But for the most part most things they do wrong are punished by groundings, loss of privileges or time outs (only for my 5yr old, older two are too old for time outs now) These are what we use since all my kids are way to old to be spanked at this point.

I guess some things can be logical consequence but I would venture to say most things are still dealt with by punishments.

[deleted account]

So have we Laura, we told daddy off the other day because he flicked a tee shirt at Ethan and it caught his face (it was an accident) so daddy had to apologise (he didn't need telling to like Ethan does lol) and he got a stern reminding that we do not hit in our house, Ethan and poppy cannot hit mommy or daddy and mommy and daddy cannot hit Ethan or poppy. :-)

Merry - posted on 09/16/2011

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My mom did the whole I'm not angry yet I'm going to spank you thing and it was sort of creepy, like why does she want to hit me?
I've only hit Eric three times and all times it was out of fear/anger at his action and all times I felt guilty and apologized.
It's been a year since I hit him and we have a strict no hitting policy in our house

[deleted account]

Sherri are you sure you never use natural consequence? you've never took a toy away from a child because they weren't sharing or because they chucked it when you said not to, or you've never not given a child dessert because they didn't eat their dinner (enough dinner) or let a child get a bit chilly in spring or autumn because they didn't want to wear a coat? I'm sure you do those things or things similar without thinking of them being a consequence, maybe with things you feel don't require punishment?

So you are more passionate about having the choice then rather than the action, the way you portray yourself in these debates is that you wholeheartedly spank your kids and they benefit from it, at least from my perspective, it is interesting to see actually you have probably spanked less than some of the anti spankers, even though you come across as an advocate for it.

America3437 your posts confuse me, nobody said it was illegal across the board to spank a bare bottom or that they don't spank their kids but would spank others, can you elaborate on what you were responding to?

Jaime - posted on 09/16/2011

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Sherri, I don't deny that spanking is disciplline because it's not. You can't argue that spanking is discipline because the very act of spanking someone denotes a loss of control...thus negating any inner discipline held by the parent/guardian. I also won't pretend to respect any attitude associated with a parent's 'right' to use physical force in order to gain compliance from their child(ren). Spanking is legal for the moment, but that doesn't make it right and it definitely doesn't make it any less harmful to a child simply because it's allowed.

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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Not to nit pick, but if you didn't think one was better than another you wouldn't have picked the way you did. :P

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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Better no, different yes. I think there are a million ways to parent and I personally don't think any one way is better or right over another just different. I think every parent, parents by how it works in their household and that is fine with me, even if it differs from my own.

I personally don't parent by natural consequences and am not a fan of it. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with it, it just personally is not my cup of tea.

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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I can accept that, Sherri. But can YOU accept that there are other methods of discipline (NOT punishment) involving natural consequences that could be a better way to teach a child than spanking?

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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However, everyone is saying you should discipline not punish there in my book is zero difference. I discipline by punishing I guess then and I am perfectly okay with that.

Kate CP - posted on 09/16/2011

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"...You can deny spanking is discipline and call it punishment. Then you should call time out, grounding, removing a child and placing a child by themselves in another room all punishments vs. discipline as well..."

They ARE forms of punishment.

America3437 - posted on 09/16/2011

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Actually Smacking a child on bare bottom with hand is allowed in my state. It is perfectly fine to spank child on bare bottom as long as welp doesn't remain after a couple hours is what I was told! and who in their right mind would spank someone's child but wouldn't their own! not acceptable on any level. If I won't spank mine what would give me the right to spank yours?

Sherri - posted on 09/16/2011

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I don't like disciplining in general honestly but I don't dislike spanking anymore than any other form of punishment. However, I do try and use it after our normal methods just don't work. It will never be my very first option to go to right away but I do like to have it in large bag of things that I use when I need too.

Sal - posted on 09/16/2011

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i doubt any mum who thinks smacking is a legit choice actually likes doing it, i don,t fancy my little one screaming in a time out or being excluded from an activity because she won't put her shoes on either (we have a real shoe issue at the moment) and i don't know any parent who does enjoy dishing out punishment/ disapline it isn't fun, but we all make choices on what we think works for us....and as for its effectivness my daugter has fnally stopped trying touching the fire....do i care that it is only because she is sick of being smacked....not one bit,seen as she has survived winter without a major burn and not burnt the house down....we'll work on reason next winter...

[deleted account]

Sherri, from reading this thread I am getting that you are not keen on spanking your kids and although you have permission to and have spanked your daycare kids you would rather not...so if you don't like doing it why are you so passionate about spanking? Is it the right to choose whether or not to spank you're passionate about rather than the actual act?

Sherri - posted on 09/15/2011

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@Jaime all I can tell you then is if you are so passionate about it fight to have it deemed illegal. I personally have a different view and won't be joining that fight but can personally see why you have your view and can respect it, even though it differs from my own.

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