Permission slips to spank?

Katherine - posted on 12/22/2010 ( 105 moms have responded )

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Coming soon to a daycare near you: permission slips to spank your kid! Stop shaking your head; you read that right. A child safety bill up for consideration in the South Carolina legislature would allow parents to write out permission slips for their daycare provider to spank their child. Who knows how long it will take Kendra's Law to get to your state?

At the heart, it's supposed to protect kids from the horrors that befell the proposed law's namesake, a little girl who was beaten by her babysitter, resulting in brain and retinal hemorrhaging. Daycare providers won't be able to smack their charges without a parent's written permission. Excuse me for being dense here, but we really need a law for this?

I'm by no means a spanking advocate, but even the most rabid "spare the rod, you're creating a brat" parents I know will tell you corporal punishment is a personal decision made by a child's parents. If someone else touches their child, they'd be calling in the cops.

I'll grant you they've got compelling arguments. A child who is spanked by Mom and Dad (spanked, not beaten) still gets love and affection from that parent. There is ostensibly a counterbalance to the violence of the act. That's not usually so with daycare providers. Even the most loving sitter is still not a parent who loves you unconditionally.

In the end, it's an argument that smacks of hypocrisy. If we're not OK with someone else hitting our kids, we shouldn't be doing it ourselves. Violence is violence, no matter who doles it out. And parents still account for 70 percent of the child abusers in this country; these people who gave their kids life are not the best judges of when enough is enough.

Which makes parents who would think nothing of signing off on this sort of permission slip even more of an issue. If they're not thinking about the myriad things that could go wrong with someone raising their hand to my child, are they thinking through their own actions? A daycare provider is not a child's parent. They should not have that sort of power, a power that can be so easily misused.

Would you sign off on a permission slip to allow someone else to spank your child?

Heck no!!!!!!

I

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Beverly - posted on 12/29/2010

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I worked 16 yrs teaching pre-kindergarten. I have never laid a hand on any of my students. I will be very honest I never felt I needed to do this. My little students knew what was expected of them and they did it, it's all about respect which I had for them and they for me---children learn what they live!
If they were being unruly than it was the time out chair and even that was for a very short time and very respectfully and calmly we talked about what put him/her in that chair. I never spanked my own children and again, never seen a need to do that. My opinion--spanking creates fear,underhandedness,anger and to be very sneaky.

Kate CP - posted on 12/28/2010

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"...There was a show on TV and in one state they showed how the kids could opt for detention or a paddle on the buttocks as punishment they could bend over and one two three paddles. It stung a bit the kids said but the kids I found opted for it more times then not over the detention."

This, to me, shows that spanking is really not a very good form of discipline. If kids prefer this method (because it only lasts a little while and then they can go off and do things and have fun) wouldn't that suggest to a rational adult that something a little more lasting and time consuming (like detention) make a bigger impact that swatting?

Johnny - posted on 03/22/2011

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Absolutely not. Thankfully, it's illegal here for a school or caregiver to spank a child. That obviously does not stop abusers, but it prevents it from common practice.

I will totally echo what Ashley said so succinctly:
I won't spank my kids,
I won't allow others to,
I certainly won't have them in a daycare were they will see other children being spanked.

[deleted account]

Yea, its banned completely in 29 countries, the states are behind yet again in changing the rules. Which is ridiculous because they are suppose to be so ahead in so many ways, yet lack in basic protection of human rights.

Tracey - posted on 12/25/2010

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And how is a teacher / carer suppose to teach discipline with this? So they can spank one child but not another, surely it just means the non spanked kids will feel they can be naughty and get away with it?

In UK any form of physical punishment in schools is banned, and I don't want it any other way from a parent or staff point of view. I don't want to hurt someone else's kid in class.

How does this relate to child protection? What happens if one teacher spanks but another doesn't believe it is appropriate?

This conversation has been closed to further comments

105 Comments

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Bexterwhite - posted on 03/30/2011

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That is my point. adults abuse kids in all sorts of perverted way's, one of which is spanking. it should not be aloud ever by anyone.

Beverly - posted on 03/29/2011

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As well she should! Didn't harm you? What about the other girl's? How in your mind that was ok? How did that teach you anything? Maybe you have a great body and are not ashamed jumping up and down in front of other girls, well believe me I never would have wanted to do that and would have been so ashamed. Thank God no one can do that today!

Amy - posted on 03/29/2011

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I wouldn't trust anyone laying their hands on my kids. Nope. Especially since everyone's definition of "spank" varies.

the "rod" of discipline should be a leadership. Moses had his ole staff and many leaders in history were shown with a staff or rod -a symbol of authority - even back in hieroglyphic times. It doesn't mean to beat someone senseless into submission or inflict pain. But to be in authority and lead them in what's what. Why would a teacher/staff of a school need to spank? By the time kids are in school - probably too old for a spanking. As far as daycare...eh, no idea there. I am fortunate to stay home with my kids. We only have spanked when kids -after redirection - still went towards wood stove / oven / road. Things that could KILL them or hurt them way worse than a swat on the bum to show them I'm serious, don't push me.

Answer of question. NO. I would never sign that permission slip.

America3437 - posted on 03/29/2011

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Oh Hell NO!!! Not at any age. Now, I have three teenagers and just last year went to the principals office and asked him if I could use his paddle! I was at the school for my youngest child's talent show and was called by a teacher of my oldest one to discuss issues that he was having. My son and his girlfriend got into a argument at school and it goy heated and my son was accused of hitting this girl so, what did I do ? Marched straight to the principal"s office and told him I needed his paddle and my child to his office! Now come to find out this girl actually hit my son so I didn't need the paddle but my point is....... If my child has done something bad enough to need a paddle then call me and I will be more than happy to drive to the school and beat their ass!!!!

Jenni - posted on 03/29/2011

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I love to say: "I feel we are evolving as a species, not devolving". I always take comfort in the fact that; for the most part, we are taking steps forwards in humanity.



Maybe it's a bold statement but for the most part I believe it... but I do tend to be a glass half full sorta gal.

Bexterwhite - posted on 03/29/2011

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I think that "not sticking your nose in" with regards to other peoples shitty parenting, is how our society has got into such a terrible mess.
It takes a whole community to raise a child and support a mother.
If more people stuck their nose in to encourage support and to blow the whistle when things got out of hand, there would be less children being abused.
The fact that a school would even entertain the idea of physically abusing children is outrageous,
When i was at school our PE teacher made us jump naked for our towels when we got out of the shower, it didn't do me any harm, but fuck me if that happened now she would be strung up!

Jenni - posted on 03/28/2011

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True enough. I wasn't considering the context of the debate, behaviour, so I think you were actually more correct than I was.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/27/2011

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Jennifer: to be fair, homo sapiens sapiens only reached anatomical modernity @200,000 years ago - give or take. We didn't achieve behavioral modernity until 50 - 60 million years ago. I try not to count australopithicus as the thought of living in trees gives me a headache. We are both right, in and out of context. ^.~

Jenni - posted on 03/27/2011

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Homosapiens have walked the earth for approx 200 000 years. The oldest organism to be dated is 3.5 million years old. So life forms have 'survived' for millions of years. Not correcting you to be catty. lol Just showing how crazy it really all is to have information at your fingertips. Something we could never do before the internet. Or at least it would involve making a trip to the library...



Anyways, we as a species have 'survived' being spanked, flogged, whipped, beaten... I think what the ladies on this thread are trying to say is we have 'alternatives' that may be more productive and beneficial to our children.



I know you're new so you haven't seen the Hell fire of anti-spanky vs spanky debates on COM but this one is actually really tame in comparison to some. The ladies on DM tend to be more tactful in debates, more respectful of each other's opinions and exhibit more self-control although we do have the occasional heated debate. It's pretty tame here in comparison to other communities. ;)



Edit to add: Please make note that there is a fine line between attacking the argument and personal attacks. The latter has no place on DM.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/27/2011

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So very true, Jennifer. It's almost remarkable that our species has managed to survive for nearly 60 million years without the ability to hit the web! I'm here because of a recent discussion with a friend about spanking that got me wondering. I had no idea it was such a huge issue with so many people.

Jenni - posted on 03/27/2011

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I'm not really sure about the generation gap, persay. I mean, a lot of us received corporal punishment growing up. I guess it is in a way because as adults we live in the information age. Information on various parenting topics is more available to our generation than past generations. Our generation is more informed on all topics, outside family and friends. We have more resources and can research all sides of the argument and then base our opinion. Before the inet we were limited to family, friends,llimited parenting books, and personal experience.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/27/2011

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Jennifer: I absolutely agree that a child watching another receive any sort of punishment is gruesome at best. It's probably worse for the child getting spanked as I'm sure it's embarrassing beyond belief and will open that child to the possibility of ridicule and bullying. A dumb ass idea all around.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/27/2011

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Jennifer: I absolutely agree that a child watching another receive any sort of punishment is gruesome at best. It's probably worse for the child getting spanked as I'm sure it's embarrassing beyond belief and will open that child to the possibility of ridicule and bullying. A dumb ass idea all around.

[deleted account]

Oh my Jocelyn, you are a funny one. Clearly you have some type of 'issues' to be insulting and making assumptions about a total stranger. I didn't flame or insult you so perhaps you should take your own advise and read more carefully. Personal attacks aren't what we're about so if that's what you're into I'm sure there are plenty of other sites that cater to that mentality.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/27/2011

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Stephanie:

Lol - sorry if I scored a hot button with you. I think pretty much everyone spends too much time on line, myself included and at the top of the list. I don't think you read my post very carefully. If you had, I think that you would see that little or no judgement was offered on my part. I just think it's interesting that many in my generation don't observe the spanking issue as many younger people do, specifically when it comes to public/school spanking as was introduced by this thread. Obviously no one in their right mind should authorize a day care worker to physically discipline their child. I thought that went without saying. Returning to the thing that evidently got your panties in a twist, if you are one of the rare individuals who doesn't spend time in the virtual world of social networking that could be spent with family and friends, I salute you! If, on the other hand, you just enjoy a good flame, then by all means, flame on! As my grandmother used to say: better out than in.

[deleted account]

Jocelyn- Who are you to judge any of us for the amount of time we spend online? You are being incredibly presumptuous. You don't know me and have no clue what my life entails. And just bc we are passionate about our children and parent in a way that does not involve violence towards our children doesn't mean we are out judging and pointing our fingers at everyone who does. Yes, I have a strong opinion on the subject and will openly discuss it but I do not seek out other mothers who don't share my opinion with the intent of brow beating them. Your judgement is laughable and dare I be so brazen as to assume that you are an 'empty nester' with so much time on your hands bc you hit your children and now they want nothing to do with you? Not very nice, is it?

Jenni - posted on 03/27/2011

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I can't speak for *everyone* on this thread. But I personally don't have a problem with how parents decide to discipline in their own home. I'm not brash enough to say an occasional 'spank' is going to cause irrefutable damage to a child. I'm sure kids that are spanked on occasion aren't going to be any better or worse for it than my own children.



However, I do not want my child being privy to another child being spanked. If it were to happen once or twice (he's at a friend's house) really, no big deal. It's when it's happening as a 'mainstream' when I have a problem with it. Like at his school. Fortunately, that would never happen where I live. So I could really care less because this is not a real issue to me. I'm merely debating for the sake of debating.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/26/2011

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This must be generational. I'm 56 and grew up in a world where a teacher or school official could absolutely haul off and give you a pounding whether or not your behavior merited same. Obviously most of you believe that no child ever merits corporal punishment, and that, like many other high-concept items is something that will never be universally resolved on an on-line forum. I will say, however, that virtually everyone I knew as a child was spanked at home and sometimes at school as well. No one I know - including me, ever responded to being spanked the way some of you have related here with such passion. It simply was the way things were, and most of us did our best not to attract the wrath of an authority figure. I absolutely love and respect my spanking mom who never terrified me in the way that has been described by others in this forum. If she did, I simply don't remember. On the other hand I am quite certain that had I grown up in the current

kinder/gentler climate that I'd feel quite differently and that I'd be able to understand your horror at the concept of corporal punishment. As things stand,

however, it just seems like an issue that has become inflated far beyond it's worth. Despite your personal feelings, parents will always spank their children. Right or wrong, human nature will always defy attempts at modification. The type of behavioral change you desire re: spanking is far, far down an uncertain road and certainly isn't something that will be realized in our lifetime. I encourage you all to spend less time on line and more time with your kids. I'm an empty nester, so I have an excuse. If spanking fills you will revulsion, don't do it. Please acknowledge, however, that not everyone shares your feelings and to judge those people as bad for their failure to agree with you is a tad fascist...or childish, if fascist is too much. I celebrate all children and their parents and hope for a future in which no child shall know the pain and fear described here. Peace. Out.

[deleted account]

I will sign it only if they sign a permission slip saying that if they find the need to spank my child they have to do 2 things.
1. notify me 1st by phone (because my child will)
2. allow me to beat the ever living shit out of the person who spanked my child because I will!

Jenni - posted on 03/22/2011

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Like I said in that post... that's a whole other debate. Didn't want to take this completely OT.

[deleted account]

Bahahaha!!!! I wouldn't have taken it personally! The truth is the truth...I just wondered which truth you were talking about lol. ; )

Jenni - posted on 03/22/2011

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I thought better of going there. ;) Might be a deep, dark hole I'd have no chance of climbing out of.

[deleted account]

Which personal freedoms? Just curious! ; )

Nobody will ever have 'permission' to hit my children, ever. And if they did, God help them. Not only would I sue them for everything they had but they would also never work with children again...or any job that involved having 2 working legs.

Jenni - posted on 03/22/2011

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Wow, I'm shocked! Apparently corporal punishment in schools is only banned in 30 states....... it is widely not practiced but isn't considered unlawful in the remaining states. Although there are common practices of it in many rural southern states. I had no idea!
I thought most developed countries had abolished this form of discipline in schools. Until today I had no clue this was still practiced. There was also another thread where a woman gives permission at her son's school to have him paddled.
It's nothing new... these states have never made it unlawful to use corporate punishments in schools. If anything more states are prohibiting it:
http://www.corpun.com/counuss.htm
In fact there are only two countries in Europe where corporal punishment is still lawful in schools(France and Czech Republic. Other countries where CP in schools is prohibited incl: Canada, Kenya, Japan, South Africa and New Zealand.
In approximately half of Europe corporal punishment in the home is prohibited.

Nikkole - posted on 03/22/2011

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IF my kids needed spanked I WOULD do it not a total stranger i would never give anyone other than my mom permission to spank (and my mother lets my kids get away with murder haha no spanking there)!

[deleted account]

No its wrong,

I won't spank my kids,

I won't allow others to,

I certainly won't have them in a daycare were they will see other children being spanked.



Not right.



What you may choose to do with your children in your own home, so be it but in daycare etc no way it should even be an option.

Beverly - posted on 03/22/2011

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TealRose,your post is so refreshing! Your experience with your parent's shows what happens to children when they are spanked. Dicipline should be to teach, I have never seen nor will I ever see how this teaches a child. Yes TealRose this is a form of child abuse, more so when you spank in anger and/or frustation!
as I mentioned before spanking
is a sign of weakness it speaks
loud and clear, " I don't know how
I can get through to you that I mean
business. I don't have the know how
or the skills to dicipline you!!! "

Sharon - posted on 03/22/2011

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I've said it before and I'll say it again - some kids will only respond to spankings. I don't like it, but there it is. For me the proof is in my 3 kids, all raised just the same and yet my oldest adhd child ONLY repsonded to spankings.

And FYI - they don't make a public spectacle out of this, at least they didn't when I was in school.

It would have been a much easier time for us all if there was the deterrent of a spanking when he was in school.

There would also be limitations. 3 swats, no bruises, one person and one person only to be the designated spanker, the principal. Its not a free for all pass for just anyone to beat my child indiscriminately.

Katherine - posted on 03/22/2011

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I am thinking that watching it is supposed to be a deterrent. I have now seen more articles on schools who are going to pass out permission slips to spank.
Sad really. I would not want anyone laying a hand on my child!

Sharon - posted on 03/22/2011

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Yes I would sign a slip.

But I fail to see how giving permission to spank will stop a psychopath from beating your child to death.

Tina - posted on 03/22/2011

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There is no way im letting a day care provider spank my boys. But i do give my parents and brother permission to spank if they are in there care for the day or whatever the case may be. But other than family, is a neg. I would think about pulling my kids out of a day care that handed my the permission slip to spank, because accidents happen and how do you know if they are spanking without the slip. Who knows what could happen. They can easily get the children mixed up.

Jenni - posted on 03/22/2011

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One of the biggest problems I have with this is something Loureen pointed out. What about the kids without slips having to witness this?? I don't want my child witnessing an adult spanking another child! What message is that sending my child?
If you can't handle your job as a daycare provider without having to spank... you're in the wrong line of work IMO.
If people choose to spank at home, no biggie. As long as it's not abuse and a last resort. I wouldn't judge another parents' style of parenting. However, considering I am against using physical force to get the message across and it's something I don't want my children thinking is ok. I would not want my children to be audience to it. I know it's not something I can shelter my children from but I don't want them seeing it as the 'mainstream'.

Jodi - posted on 12/28/2010

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I was thinking the same thing Kate. If the kids prefer it, it possibly isn't the most effective punishment.

Bexterwhite - posted on 12/28/2010

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Who would do the job?
What kind of pervert would apply for the position of child spanker?
Because every teacher worth there salt who i've ever met can control behavior in a classroom without resorting to violence, they go into teaching because they love to share there knowledge with kids
And the crappy teachers who can only control with fear aren't going to leave 30 kids on there own to take 1 out and spank it!
So i will look forward to seeing that post advertised!

Nikki - posted on 12/27/2010

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"I think this attempt to "bring back the cane" is really an attempt to bring back respect. Respect that died when parents started trying to be their child's friend."

While I agree it is rather inappropriate just to want to be friends with your child, I don't agree with this statement Parents don't spend enough time parenting their children these days, there are too many outside influences and technology which takes time away from family life and lessons in life. Corporal punishment is not about respect it is purely punishment, it teaches children to be scared , not to respect.

Jodi - posted on 12/27/2010

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In Australia, using any implement (including a paddle) is against the law and considered child abuse....as it should be. And corporal punishment has also been banned from schools. Day cares? Forget it. No way.

[deleted account]

When I was in elementary (way back in the 70's), there was a special room for spanking, with a wooden paddle. I never had to visit that room, but I remember walking past it in line to go to lunch and all of us kids would literally veer away to the other side of the sidewalk when we'd get to that door. I don't know how it works today in the states that it's still legal, but I'm glad NY isn't one of those states. For some reason, I just always assumed that it was illegal in all states. Come to find out, in my home state of Florida, it's still legal. But if we had stayed there and Jacob had gone to school there, you bet I would have caught that in the handbook when he started school. And I would have made it clear that they were to never spank him under any circumstances.

Barb - posted on 12/27/2010

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I don't think a lot of parents realize that if it is in the student handbook that spanking or corporal punishment is a form of punishment that they are agreeing to the school using this as a form of punishment when they sign the paper at the beginning of the year saying they have read and agree to abide by the student rules and handbook.

This law is saying the school/caregiver will no longer carry the policy of spanking or corporal punishment unless it is specified by the parent.

Sherri, i can see how hitting one, two, or three times with a wooden paddle could leave bruises or split the skin to be defined as a beating. Just because the kids chose it doesn't make it the better form of discipline.

Stifler's - posted on 12/27/2010

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I think this attempt to "bring back the cane" is really an attempt to bring back respect. Respect that died when parents started trying to be their child's friend.

[deleted account]

Spanking is a form of discipline that if done should kept in your family. I have very close friends who have spanked my kids with my permission but it should never be done in a childcare setting. I have taken a new stand to discipline and am trying to do things different BUT I am a true believer that it can be effective when done correctly and that is a lot of trust to put in someone you don't know very well.

Charley - posted on 12/27/2010

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okay i believe in spanking i was spanked and i grew up fine but i would never allow someone else to do it

[deleted account]

No one in any school better ever lay a hand on my son using any form of corporal punishment or it will be all I can do to avoid going to jail for beating the shit out of whoever did it. I most definitely would never give anyone permission to touch my son in that manner. Period. Have I spanked my son (through clothing and diaper) in the past? Yes. Awhile back I decided it wasn't a parenting method I wanted to use because it was getting us nowhere so I stopped. I haven't spanked him in over 2 months. Whether I still spanked or not though, doesn't really matter because that's a decision that is made in the home by parents. My definition of a swat on the butt is probably different than the person in charge of spanking at school. Hell no, no one's touching my kid that way. So help them if they do.....

Barb - posted on 12/27/2010

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Sherri, did you see the links that i posted as examples? I don't believe they are an exaggeration on a beating at all.

Even in the student handbook link where the descriptions are so coldly written it describes the instrument to be used, the board length and width. This act is not done out of love or with any compassion.

Please, enlighten me on how it is not a beating. Please give me an example of a swat, or at least your definition of one. To me a "swat" means an tap on a clothed rear with my bare hand.

I do not believe any of these schools have a "swat" policy

Barb - posted on 12/27/2010

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I really think it's a good idea.

If the "norm" now is that they spank or use corporal punishment without asking permission and the parents have to specify that they do NOT want their child spanked. I think it is great to do a complete 180 and make the norm a non spanking policy except for those few where the parents have to specifically ask for someone to spank their child.

Make the parents think it through on having someone else beat their child.

Meghan - posted on 12/26/2010

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I would be finding a new daycare if they asked me my permission to spank. If I found out my ex ever spanked him, we would be going to court right away. My mom did it once and I flipped out. If I can handle my son for hours/days on end without laying a hand on him, other people should give him the same respect

Bexterwhite - posted on 12/26/2010

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when children get really angry or frightened they lash out, as we grow up and learn self control and better ways of communication, this no longer happens or rarely happens.
In our civilized society the only people it is "acceptable" to hit, hurt, smack, spank etc.... are our children.
We all loose it sometimes, but to think calmly and with calculation "what you need is to be "hit". That could never be alright for any child

C. - posted on 12/26/2010

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"Coming soon to a daycare near you: permission slips to spank your kid!"

Now.. I spank my kid on occasion and I allow others (like my husband, mom, sisters, brother, MIL, FIL-- And ONLY those people) to spank him when he NEEDS it.

There's no way in the world I would allow someone that I either haven't met yet or just don't really know, to spank my kid!!! Heck to the no. If you're not family and I don't know your tempers, etc.. You will NOT be laying a hand on my kid or your butt will be hit with a lawsuit, nice and hard.

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