Proposal to make formula available by prescription only...

Jodi - posted on 09/29/2010 ( 154 moms have responded )

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I just heard about a proposal in Australia to make formula available by prescription only! I have to admit...I agree...as long as they make it feasible to GET the formula when needed. Read the link:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/lifestyle/...

I could not find her entire proposal unfortunately, but that's the basic idea. Here is my viewpoint on the topic and why I agree with it under proper circumstances: I think it would be GREAT, and not just for Australia, but for the U.S., Canada, make it global. Like I said, it needs to be feasible. We'll have to increase the amount of lactation consultants and make sure doctors are thuroughly and properly educated on breastfeeding, the road blocks and how to combat them. Mothers should have a 24/7 hotline to call WITH consultants that can get to your house at a moment's notice at 2 a.m. if need be to help with issues like, latch, positioning, supply, growth spurts etc etc etc. I also think that the consultants should be able to give out prescriptions and for the cases where a mother calls at 2 a.m. and the consultant deems formula neccessary can give the mother a 24 hour sample of formula until she can fill the prescription.
I don't think that formula should be absolutely impossible to get either, I just think that a mother should give it a try and have educated help starting and combating issues that most commonly prevent mothers from having a successful breastfeeding relationship. I always hear that it's a parent's right how to feed their child, but what about the baby's right to proper, IDEAL and natural nutrition? This would ensure that a mother CAN get formula if it "isn't for her" (as is one of the reasons I hear SOOOO often) and that baby is given the opportunity to the best and most nutritional food supply straight off the bat.
Besides that, medications are much more regulated than any food, ensuring much higher quality formula for babies/mothers who do need it. Formula companies would surely advertise less, leaving more money just for the purpose of investing it into better ingredients, better safety precautions and again, ensuring higher quality formula. Besides that, as a medication, it would be covered by most insurances, saving cost to the mother who does NEED the formula.
Mothers win in being given the proper support they need to breastfeed AND still have the option to formula feed if neccessary. Babies win with being allowed the best nutrition straight off the bat. Society would win with higher breastfeeding rates which would/could result in a smarter and healthier future population while also lowering breastcancer rates. To add to that, it would open up new job markets (at least in the U.S. that is) in the form of lactation consultants as there would be a drastic rise in the need for more. The only ones NOT benefiting from this scenario is the multi-billion dollar formula industries.

Obviously, I support this movement with the proper guidance to ensure certain rights (such as, not forcing a mother to breastfeed and undergo undue stress and resentment simply because the has the ability to lactate). I have nothing against mothers who use formula for WHATEVER reason, my issue is with the medical society and it's lack of education and support on the subject of breastfeeding and with the money hungry formula industries who don't give two hoots about the health of our children but only making the mommies feel secure and happy while forking over millions of dollars for inferior food. What are your thoughts?

Side note: I am brand-spanking new to debating moms and I thuroughly look forward to getting to know everyone here!

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Krista - posted on 10/01/2010

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Carol, I think that the reason why so many of us get upset about this is because FF moms are already regularly told that they're giving their babies sub-optimal nutrition (and that's phrasing it nicely -- I've seen it expressed with much more vitriol than that, up to and including accusations that we're brainwashed and poisoning our children.) So a proposal to make formula a controlled substance feels like yet another dig at us -- basically an effort to make mothers jump through as many hoops as possible so as to protect these innocent babies from our evil attempts to poison them with formula.

It just seems as though there are a lot of breastfeeding advocates out there who would not be happy unless every FF mother was walking around with a scarlet "F" on her shirt and a placard around her neck saying, "I am feeding my child chemical crap." But we wouldn't have time to walk around, because we'd be too busy trying to complete our Tolkien-esque quest for formula. It's almost like it seems to really, really bother them that many of us formula feed and make no apologies for it.

And Carol, I understand that for you, it wouldn't have been a big deal. For me, it would have been. I'm 45 minutes from the nearest pharmacy, and it closes at 4pm on Sundays. You know that I went through the same thing as you when initially trying to nurse -- the constant pumping, the frustration, perpetually smelling like maple cookies due to ingesting disgusting quantities of Fenugreek. What do you honestly think it would have done to my mental state to also have had to worry about getting a prescription while my doctor was on vacation, or making to the Pharmasave before 4pm?

Jenny - posted on 09/30/2010

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Well I got something out of this discussion. I'm going to buy a can of formula tomorrow to throw in the foodbank bin.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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de·bate (d-bt)

v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates

v.intr.

1. To consider something; deliberate.

2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.

4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.

v.tr.

1. To deliberate on; consider.

2. To dispute or argue about.

3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.

4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.

n.

1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.

2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.

3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.

4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.



Nothing in that says anything about coming up with alternative solutions.



You asked for thoughts, we are debating opinions on the issue. You can't tell people how to respond to your question. You ask the question, you get what you get.



*edited to fix a couple of typos :)

Lindsay - posted on 09/29/2010

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Having formula readily available is not a problem so there's no need to fix it. Breast may be best but formula is not too shabby. I'd challenge anyone to line up a group of kindergarten students and pick out which is a result of formula and which is a result of bf. You can't....

Jodi - posted on 09/29/2010

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" And I read only a few comments on your thread"



Right, so you were too lazy to read everyone else's responses on the other thread, but quite happy to give a huge book full of reasons on this one. Perhaps you should continue reading on the other thread and you will note that everyone agrees that breastfeeding mothers need more support. This isn't support. This is bullshit. This is social engineering. This is a proposal for the government to get involved in something that is none of its fucking business. This is a big fat stick being waved at anyone who has difficulties breastfeeding (or chooses not to) which is a dangerous precedent to set.



And believe me that crap that a child may eat for 17-18 years is going to do far more damage than a non-breastfeeding mother will do to their baby.

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[deleted account]

Welcome to Hell, Jodi! LOL Seriously, welcome to debating mums, but I'm sorry you've been getting pm'ed because of this debate.



Can I just say.... I can't believe a read the whole thing!!! Whew, my eyes are a bit more square after reading all the posts on this topic. It had been debated just before, and I think I posted on it, but I can't remember. I'm lucky if I can remember what I go into the bathroom for sometimes!



On this topic, I was very interested to see that the link was from our local paper! Yes, I'm in Brisbane and the Courier Mail is our paper. What didn't surprise me is to see that some researcher in Melbourne doesn't really know what's going on in her own country!



Here's the deal:

Formula can already be given by prescription! Here in Australia I mean, god forbid I not be as crystal clear as possible. It is not only available by prescription, you can go into the grocery store and chemist to buy it as you wish for between $20-30 a tin. However, if you go to your GP and get a prescription you can then go to the chemist and buy that exact same formula for MUCH cheaper! My BIL's son is lactose intolerant and his formula was up around the $30/tin mark, but with a prescription they were getting FIVE tins for $25 and they were given enough repeats to more than last until the next check up (2, 4, 6, 12 and 18 months is the vaccination schedule). So, in our case the whole "what if I run out before the chemist opens?" problem wouldn't exist, because if you let 5 tins run out before getting more, you're just sad. Not to mention you could just go buy a tin at full price if you choose, but why would you? *edit: I forgot to mention that you can also write off prescriptions you buy on your income tax, so just another reason to HAVE a prescription!*



Formula companies are not allowed to advertise stage 1 or 2, so any formula adverts you see on tv or in mags are for toddler milk... and boy, do they ever flog it like you wouldn't believe! It is actually illegal for them to market any formula for babies younger than 12 months old. My husband was told that from a rep from a very popular formula company here. We happened to be at the Baby and Kids Expo where they had a stand. Also, unlike the US, we do not get formula samples from the hospital or in our Bounty bags. The formula companies are also required to have a giant warning on the tins saying that "Breast is best" and people should consult a physician before using formula and so on.



Hospitals are becoming much more "breastfeeding friendly" too. At least half of the midwife nurses on a maternity ward are also lactation consultants, baby rooms in with mum and they do not move baby to the nursery unless requested... and even then, if the baby wakes up screaming with hunger, they bring it BACK to mother for a feed. They will NOT supplement unless expressly told to. If your baby has to be in special care (there are only 2 hospitals in Brisbane with NICU facilities), they would encourage mum to pump like there's no tomorrow and, when possible, bring her in to feed baby. The hospital that delivered both my boys was a breastfeeding friendly private hospital. As soon as baby is delivered, it goes straight onto mum's chest. Both my boys had a feed by the time they were 20 minutes old. They never left me until it was time for the first bath, which my husband could have done but he wanted to watch instead (and take photos). After a bath, quickly popped onto the scale and then back to mum. If I'd have had a cesar, baby would've been delivered, wrapped and handed to dad.



I think having this breastfeeding friendly approach of hospitals, including making breastfeeding classes available for patients is far more effective than just making formula prescription only. Unfortunately, I think a big part of the reason formula rates are as high as they are is because of the Gen Y syndrome. They want the baby, but not the bother. Okay, not ALL are like that, I understand. It's just my own observations and experience. Also, more women are showing to be incapable of breastfeeding and I think a lot of that has to do with the same thing that's causing more allergies, more cancers and more illnesses to be prevalent in this day and age. We bombard ourselves with EMFs and radiation from every nook and cranny out of convenience, so what should we expect but more illness and problems from untested long term effects of technology. They talk about how high mobile phone use can cause brain tumours, well, what about our microwaves, plasma tvs, bluetooth gadets and Wi-Fi?



It could raise breastfeeding rates to make formula prescription only, but why give them just another excuse for shrugging off responsibility? Give them the knowledge and an environment that is pro-breastfeeding and things would improve in a more positive way. If you want to regulate someone, regulate the formula companies.

Kate CP - posted on 10/01/2010

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"if you're going to get PPD you're going to get it, one situation is not going to magically over-produce those hormones IMO."

This, to me, shows you've never suffered from a mental disorder such as depression or bipolar disorder. Many things can influence a person's mental state and depression including climate change and other external factors. For example: Women who have a colicky baby are more likely to suffer from PPD than those who don't. Women who have a good birth experience (whatever that may be for that individual mom) are less likely to suffer PPD than those who have an unsatisfactory birth. Women who struggle to breast feed their newborns are more likely to suffer from PPD than those who have an easier go of it.

So yes, adding the stress of taking a hungry and fussy baby in to the doctor to get a prescription for formula COMPOUNDED with the fact that the woman is already tired and feels like a failure for not being able to feed her child PLUS the stigma of needing permission to feed her baby can and WILL increase PPD.

Jodi - posted on 10/01/2010

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"if you're going to get PPD you're going to get it, one situation is not going to magically over-produce those hormones IMO."



I strongly disagree with this. Any type of depression can be triggered by a situation. In fact, my PPD was triggered by the fact that in the first 10 days of her life, due to her size, the ONLY time I was allowed to touch my daughter was to feed or bathe her. In fact, I had to go home from the hospital without her, spending my time pumping breastmilk with no baby nearby. While I went on to breastfeed her, it was incredibly depressing. Situational triggers are very real.



Edited to add: Tell that to this mother:

http://www.momlogic.com/2009/05/suicide_...

Dana - posted on 10/01/2010

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Wow, just popped into this thread and read the last couple of posts. I can't believe people are sending you both PM's. I just block ignorant people like that, of course after I get a good laugh at them. lol Dolts.

Kate CP - posted on 10/01/2010

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Seriously, people are PMing y'all instead of debating in the forum? What chicken shits. :(

Charlie - posted on 10/01/2010

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My god what whacko is PMing you ladies ? you know you can block them right and if the keep harassing then report them .

Have a nice date night !

Jodi - posted on 10/01/2010

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Kati, I didn't say that it couldn't make PPD worse in a mother, someone who suffers from depression of any kind can be set of by anything, having to get a prescription, the dishes not being done, the baby didn't smile yet...I said I didn't think it would magically increase the amount of women suffering from PPD, if you're going to get PPD you're going to get it, one situation is not going to magically over-produce those hormones IMO.
Also, who said I had an easy time with breastfeeding? I struggled endlessly for weeks with supply, latch on top of PPD. Fortunately I was able to over come these obstacles, but breastfeeding was not some magic gift handed over by mother nature, I had to work for it and I'm glad that I did. But I don't think formula is poison, I have never claimed it to be so, and yes I realize you said people "like me".
I would also like to point out that formula feeding mothers often bring up how they are made to feel guilty etc etc etc, I don't deny this to be true, but society hasnt' been all that accepting of breastfeeding for many many many mothers either. Nearly 60% of the nation (US keep in mind) does not support breastfeeding in public...point in fact, I havn't heard of a mother being kicked out a public area for formula feeding her baby, I have read online articles, watched online newsclips and heard first hand accounts of, I can't even tally, how many breastfeeding moms going through this. Does this make it ok for either side? Absolutely not, but let's not pretend that formula feeding mothers are the only ones victimized in today's society.
Anyways, it's date night with hubby :) Have a great weekend ladies! And Carol, I too have been PM'd, my inbox can barely keep up! Pay no attention to them, it's pretty cowardly to argue that way.

Charlie - posted on 10/01/2010

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Geez thats pretty crappy people are PMing you Carol , fairly gutless too to have to hide in your PM's instead of debating you here on the public forum .



Anyhoo i am a breastfeeding advocate HOWEVER i struggled with my first to breastfeed Kati has it right about breastfeeding and PPD .

I had PPD but because breast is best was drummed into me ( and i agree ) i felt not breastfeeding was not an option but every feed was another dive into depression directly after every feed it felt as if i was being sucked into a black hole , crying hysterically , 6 months i put up with this , it made me a less an stellar mother and person all for the sake of not feeling guilty , well my depression came to an end when it was so bad it made me physically ill and i needed hospitalization my body was so busy trying to repair itself i no longer produced milk , all of my doctors , midwives agreed that breastfeeding was worsening my depression .



Everyone in my home suffered its not an ideal situation for a child to be brought up in and while he got all the benifits of breast milk at what cost ?



Luckily with my second i am able to enjoy breastfeeding but having that experiance makes me see both sides , getting formula ( $20 ) a tin is expensive , when you run out in a small town where the pharmacy is only open weekdays you better hope you do not run out during the weekend , for the many mothers who wished they could breastfeed and couldnt for whatever reason and already live with guilt should not be pressured more so .

Krista - posted on 10/01/2010

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People have been PMing you about it, Carol? That is just NOT cool. What the hell is wrong with people? And I'm totally with you --- if those regulations are not mandatory, then they need to be. Absolutely.

Johnny - posted on 10/01/2010

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You are all correct. There are lengthy regulations, some inspections, including rules about components that can be imported. However, the vast majority of those rules and regulations are NOT mandatory. Most companies choose to comply, but not all. If you do read the details of Amie's link, it makes this very clear. Personally, as someone who has formula fed and will in all likelihood need to do it again if I have another child, I want those regulations to be mandatory. Formula is not much better monitored than other food products, and with budget cuts to the food monitoring agencies, this really worries me.

Now in my defense, for the people who seem to feel the need to attack & send nasty messages, I am not an anti-formula zealot. I do not want access to formula restricted but the conditions of its sale improved. This is the last I will post and read of this thread, I am just not passionate enough about this issue to subject myself to this, and please don't PM me about it either.

[deleted account]

I couldn't breastfeed Logan...well he was switched to formula at 6 days old as my milk didn't come in. Feeding is a personal choice andit is up to the mother how they feed their child - no one elses.

Rosie - posted on 10/01/2010

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jodi k, you keep on claiming that breastmilk is just completely superior than formula, and formula is crap. i agree it is better, but not so much better to go off spouting about how formula is inferior. after reading some of these things it kindof freaks me out about how much the AAP exaggerates on their studies of other childhood issues. http://stats.org/stories/breast_feed_nyt...
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29710422/n...
yeah, formula fed children are more likely to die....of injuries. kindof left that part out of the overall recommendations though didn't they? breastfed children have less diarrhea, and ear infections. so yes, breastfeeding is healthier, but formula is not the poison many like you claim it to be. in fact i say that claim itself IS the poison. your superior attitude is what gives us mothers who had a hard time with breastfeeding even more guilt, and undo stress. just because you were fortunate enough to have a good time with breastfeeding doesn't make it any less difficult or even traumatic for other mothers who are having trouble. and your ridiculous assumption that you don't think it increases PPD is COMPLETELY offbase, once again. i am telling you my personal experience that everything about breastfeeding made me feel like the worst, unnatural mother ever. adding major guilt and frustration on top of an already fragile psyche. so yes, it makes PPD a THOUSAND times worse for some people.

Amie - posted on 10/01/2010

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Cat I just wanted to expand on your post.

There are fairly lengthy regulations on formula in Canada which is enforced through the CFIA. The regulations can be found here though:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/legislation...

It is long so if people do want to read it, prepare to sit there for awhile. lol

Cat - posted on 10/01/2010

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Carol, I was shocked by your claim that Infant formula is not regulated in the states and canada, so I did my own research, and was happy to find documents that show your claims are misleading...

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceComplian...

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa...

Both of those documents, and links to several others, show that indeed the FDA in the USA and the CFIA in Canada work hand in hand to monitor and uphold a set of standards for Infant formula, and while they might not inspect every infant formula plant on a daily basis, my reading has shown that they DO inspect these facilities, and that the manufacturers are expected to adhere to the standards set out by these two groups... I dislike misrepresentation in a debate, its a pet peeve of mine... Once again, I believe breastmilk is best, but I refuse to vilify the entire formula industry to get that point across...

Johnny - posted on 10/01/2010

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In Canada (and the US as far as I know), there is no government or other medical oversight of formula production, it is not monitored and there are not safety checking procedures. This is something else that would be required if it were a prescription product. That aspect would have definitely made me feel better and admittedly less guilty when I was feeding my daughter formula.

I'm not sure which is would be more frustrating for women, being forced to get a prescription to obtain formula or, for those on lower-incomes, struggling to afford the $25+ a week it costs to feed it to your baby. I actually hope that it would make mothers struggling to breastfeed and turning to formula feel more supported, not less. I've read posts from moms here on COM saying that the struggled through misery breastfeeding simply because they could not afford formula. Of course there are women who would feel imposed upon by having to request a script. But for some, it would be a good thing.

Cat - posted on 09/30/2010

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I'm as pro-breastfeeding as anyone I know, and I breastfed my three kids BUT obviously breastmilk cant prevent everything, as one of my twins has a cows milk allergy, and has never had a drop of formula... I'm all about supporting breastfeeding whereever possible, I do believe its best BUT its not the only way to feed babies... Limiting the supply of formula or making it more difficult to get, is just going to alienate frustrated mothers against the people who support bf'ing, and create some sort of black market formula distribution/creation... And who is going to hurt the most if people start cranking out formula without any government agencies checking it over? Yep, the babies that this proposal is trying to 'help'... Its just not practical

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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I apologize, my post was directed more towards the narcotics aspect. I did not see the non before narcotics, it's late so that's my only excuse for missing a word. haha

Even controlled substances that are not potentially lethal are controlled for a reason. Anti bioitics for example. We have stronger and stronger ones being made because for a long time people were over using them and things like sanitizer. It resulted in super bugs. Hence the stronger anti biotics. This is also why you see signs everywhere advertising on how to properly wash your hands, without the sanitizer. At least that's how it is here.

Formula does not pose this risk.

[deleted account]

I have a feeling there's going to be 4 more pages of reading to catch up on in the morning but I'm exhausted and must retire for the evening.....keeping up with you guys is tough work.

G'night all....

Johnny - posted on 09/30/2010

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I am referring to things you get by prescription that do not pose risk if abused. They are actually in the majority of prescription medications. You may need to follow dosage instructions, but tylenol and even mouthwash can be fatal if you overdose on them.

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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They are controlled substances though because they pose a significant risk if abused. Formula does not.

Those same substances have a limit put upon them for how much a person can get.
Codeine is a drug though we can get here in Canada OTC. It's strictly controlled on how much in a certain time period though. So by the same logic, formula should be a controlled substance.

Either with no use unless a doctor says so or only so much in a time period. Which both pose their own risks.

One is left up to the doctors discretion.
The other is left up to all infants feeding on the exact same amount all the time.

Johnny - posted on 09/30/2010

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I'm not sure that you are entirely understanding my posts Amie.

And in my last post I am suggesting that perhaps, the reasons people get riled up are somewhat overblown by other issues, like guilt. Should we give out non-narcotic/controlled substance medications over the counter or on the shelf because people feel put upon by having to get a prescription. I suspect a fair number of men would be arguing for Viagra to be on the shelf next to tylenol.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Heather, there are only a few cases where a woman's health adversely effects her milk. If you have aids, hepatitis or any other disease transmittable through bodily fluids, you should not breastfeed as you could pass it on to baby. (Not YOU specifically, you as in...whoever would have these diseases.) Otherwise, women with poor diets, high amounts of junk food or even malnourished mothers have milk of the same quality as anyone who has a "perfect" diet. Our bodies take what it needs for the milk, the danger in a poor diet is to the mother, not the infant. As for infections, I have to admit I don't much about thrush and if it can be passed to baby (I know, not the only infection possible, but the most common.), but many women successfully breastfeed while combating thrush with antibiotics.

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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That was the entire point of my last paragraph Carol.

"Which is what others have been trying to say, I assume. We can't just think in our own little worlds, we need to try to see the other side and why we're (generally) so against this."

It is not about the mom's who wouldn't be put out. It is about the mom's who would be.

Jodi, yes IMO is a great option and solves a lot of issues. There will always be a few who get riled up no matter what, we all have our hot button issues after all.

Johnny - posted on 09/30/2010

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Thanks for that Amie. I think my post makes it pretty clear I was specifically speaking of my own experience, and did not assume it applied to others. But many people on here also seem to be assuming that all moms who formula feed would feel badly having to do this, I was simply pointing out that is not the case. Personally, I think a lot of this anger that is going on here in this thread is about a lot more than issues of "convenience", money, and support. As a mom who used formula, I'm a little put off by how intensely defensive so many people get on this topic. Formula, it is necessary, it's a substitute, and it is not the optimum nutrition. The emotional weight put on these issues in the mothering world just seems a bit out of perspective.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Amie, calling anyone who agrees with proposal a breastfeeding nazi and a "titti nazi" is name calling, and since I agree with it, while it may not have been directed immediately at me, it included me. I find no need for you to delete them though. I do not see where I have been condescending OR rude, I apologize if you feel that way...I realize how debates work, that I reply and others reply back...but what does it add to the debate to point out over and over again that it is in fact all opinions? I realize these women can be civil and have a nice debate...I never said any different and I don't think anyone has been out of line or uncivil, myself included. It is a debate, things get heated, and I realize you can't see me, but if my posts are coming across as condescending it's not meant to be, I enjoy the back and forth as long as it actually contributes to the debate...pointing out that my stance is my opinion repeatedly doesn't really contribute IMO. I guess I should use that more...IMO...perhaps it would solve that problem?

Heather - posted on 09/30/2010

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Can I just point out that if the mother's not healthy then breast milk isn't healthy. If we make everyone breastfeed then we could be subjecting a large portion of children to malnutrition and infection that would otherwise recieve formula and be perfectly healthy. While giving formula CAN lead to food allergies or other issues, I would argue that the baby is already predisposed to those things based on genetics. Just because they're breastfed doesn't mean they won't still have food allergies. It just means you'll find out about it when you stop breastfeeding.

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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Carol, that is your opinion based on personal experience. Just as others have formed their own based on personal experience.

I personally know more than one mom who would be upset and it would compound the problem if they had to go to the doctor for a script for formula.

Which is what others have been trying to say, I assume. We can't just think in our own little worlds, we need to try to see the other side and why we're (generally) so against this.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Amie, formula is known to cause an increase risk in food allergies, childhood obesity and diabetes, so yes it does in fact impact the health of our country. I have never said all mother's should have to BF so that point is pretty moot.

Jodi A, I did suffer from PPD compounded by postpartum OCD, I do understand those feelings, I do know what it's like to be suicidal because of it. I do not know the feelings of guilt associated with not succeeding at breastfeeding...I don't necessarily agree something like this would increase a rise in PPD, chances are, if a woman with PPD would have it whether or not this went through, just as she would most likely have it whether or not she succeeded or failed at breastfeeding with or without this ban. I get PPD, I really do, but on the opposite end, what about the babies that would benefit from better health, higher IQ's from breastmilk...or the babies that suffer gastrointestinal problems, lower IQ's, food allergies and the whole gamut of health effects possible through formula feeding?

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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Jodi you have not simply defending your platform. You have been condescending and rude. Just like you are claiming others have been. It's a two way street. The ladies here can be very civil and have a nice debate, if they are treated with respect. I have seen it done on multiple occasions.

No one called you any names. If you choose to take on any title a person has used to describe a sect of women, that is your own doing. Please point out where anyone said Jodi you're a ___ though and I will delete it since I am a mod on this group.

It is not hard to accept you have a differing opinion. You keep coming back and replying, so people keep replying back. It's how the debate board works.

If you are done debating though, feel free to no longer reply. I'm sure once you do, the others will stop as well since they are in agreement for the most part it seems.

Johnny - posted on 09/30/2010

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Is there not an assumption here that requesting a prescription makes a woman a subject of judgment? It really depends on the woman I suppose. I know some women would be deeply upset to have to ask for one instead of just strolling into a supermarket. Either because they don't want to explain why they are not breastfeeding, they feel guilt about it, or they believe it is their right to feed a baby anything they choose. For myself though, it would not have bothered me at all to get a prescription for formula. I fed my daughter formula, and it would not have made any emotional difference to me at all whether or not it was prescription or not. It might have been very slightly inconvenient, but not really. I needed a prescription to help me produce breast milk, and that was not that big a deal to get. I really don't see the difference.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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How many times do we have to point out...every statement here, that is not back by fact...is an opinion? I'm sure there are a ton of people who would argue the point, that isn't the point.
Yes, in my opinion it is ludicrous to find formula "suitable", so many people have pointed out how close minded and stuck up I must be for having an opinion that differs from theirs. I have not called names, I have not made judgments on anyone, I have simply defended my side with my own logic, my own opinions and beliefs. it is becoming very clear that that is not acceptable on this thread by certain persons. I have already conceded and admitted that perhaps there may be something better...although I am not 100% swayed by any standards. This entire debate is based on opinions, why is it so hard to accept that I would have an opinion that differs from someone else's and that I have no problem defending said opinion and stance? You have your opinions, I have mine. All I have done is defend my platform, and without the name calling and judgments that others have decided to do, and voice my opinion on why others opinions are not up to par to sway my opinion. Isn't that the whole point of a debate?

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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I actually have no interest in swaying your view. To be honest with you, if they make it prescription only it will have no impact on my life. I just don't agree with it, and I don't believe the arguments against it are weak at all.



Do you understand the feeling of not being able to continue breastfeeding your child (for whatever reason)? Forcing a woman to go to a doctor in order to get her prescription will compound that feeling. I can see a rise in PPD, which is already at very serious levels, and an illness many of us have had and feel guilty about. Do you KNOW the guilt associated with those things? Have you ever had PPD so severe you were suicidal? Do you KNOW how it would feel to have to then ASK for a prescription for your baby rather than just go to the supermarket and grab a can when you need to? Do you have ANY clue on those feelings? I would never subject another woman to those feelings if I could avoid it, which is a BIG reason why I don't believe this is the solution. I am all for further education, better access to maternity centers or health centres with trained consultants to help with breastfeeding, and making those services available to everyone, but I do NOT agree to subjecting a woman to the judgement that makes formula less readily available because it is deemed inappropriate by a small proportion of society.

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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No deteriorating health can not be blamed on formula. In any way shape or form. Fast food outlets on every corner, bigger and better toys to make your life easier (therefore leading to lazier people), little education on physical fitness, the constant over indulgence, etc. can all be blamed on the deteriorating health in the states.

Yes it is all of a sudden. Otherwise those 40 years of constant growth in BFing numbers, continued education, expanding knowledge for all mothers, continued support, etc. would show (and does) that numbers are rising. It's not a quick fix. It's not meant to be. It also will never make all mothers BF. All mothers should not have to BF.

There are many aspects that I do not agree with when it comes to parenting. I do not support full on bans of those acts because I do not agree with it though.

[deleted account]

That is fine, but it's your opinion that formula isn't suitable. I'll bet there are a TON of people just on this post alone that were fed formula and would argue w/ you that it IS in fact a suitable substitute.

And now I'm actually arguing in favor of formula feeding when everyone who knows me knows that formula feeding by choice isn't even something I can comprehend....

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Jodi... this entire debate is a matter of opinion, either mine, yours or anyone elses. Am I not entitled to my opinion simply because YOU don't like it? Yes, I believe the arguments have thus far been weak, it is your opinion that they aren't...and????? Isn't that the point of a debate? Two sides, hashing it out with their opinions, backed up with experiences and some facts? Once again, I have not suggested banning formula and removing it altogether as a choice.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Teresa, I wouldn't consider formula "suitable", just as I wouldn't consider McDonald's suitable food for a toddler. And again, I have never even implied that there should be a ban on formula, just have it be regulated.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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And just for the record it is *your* opinion that everyone else's arguments are weak. Personally, I do not believe that the potential increase in PPD, the increased pressure on women to be able to or be required to breastfeed, and the removal of the choice are weak arguments at all. Again, all a matter of opinion and perspective.



And as Heather has so correctly pointed out, many people have given other alternatives, just not to *your* satisfaction. Which again, is a matter of opinion.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Heather, Finally an argument to make me mull things over! "No one's going to agree enough to make a change" I can't say for sure it's enough to sway me...as I really feel the issue needs to be addressed by government and they are failing us in that way.
Amie, it is the deteriorating health of the country (which I do realize cannot all be "blamed" on formula, but I do think has a large impact.) and the proven health risks associated with formula in conjunction with it's normalization and perpetuated myths involving both sides that I don't feel a slow change, taking decades, is good enough. I have heard (as a breastfeeding mother that is) from well meaning strangers, friends and family that formula is just as good, it will allow me to sleep, my baby will sleep better, it's better than breastmilk after 6 months and far too many others to list. And for me, it's not that it's "all of a sudden" not enough, since the 70's when there was a huge push for mother's to formula feed only breastfeeding rates have been alarmingly low, and I wouldn't say 40 years is "all of a sudden".
Jodi A, I never dictated any rules...once again...I challenge people to think, I'm very sorry you don't like that, and who is it that keeps bringing it up again and again and again? Move on. I will reiterate, one last time for you consideration, I really don't give two hoots whether or not you agree with me. I enjoy debating for the sake of debating, I often times will take the underdog in a debate, not because I necessarily agree with it, but for the sake of stirring the pot and challenging people to think, a debate is no fun and pointless if there is only one side. Agree or don't, it doesn't impact my life and I won't sleep any different at night, at least I'm open to a change of opinion, no matter the subject, you unfortunately have clearly stated you aren't.

[deleted account]

Lactation consultant on a moment's notice? On Kauai? Not going to happen.

What a parent feeds a child (providing it IS actually food) is a choice. Period. Taking away that choice is ludicrous. Is it sad to see an overweight toddler frequently eating at McDonald's? Sure, but the answer is NOT to forbid every single parent from ever taking their toddler to McDonald's. The only reasonable solution is empowering them w/ knowledge and support.

Formula may not be as good as breastmilk, but it IS in fact a suitable food for an infant.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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"Perhaps we could get back on topic and stop debating the "rules" of a debate?"

Um, YOU were the one dictating the rules. Other are merely pointing out that you don't GET to dictate the rules.

And just for the record, you can debate and present a case all you like, I will never agree to making formula available only by prescription, no matter the argument. Taking away women's choices on raising their children is never an option. It's not like it is poison.

Amie - posted on 09/30/2010

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Have the numbers not been increasing as years go by because of the education and added support?

Why is it that all of a sudden it is not enough?

Is there data to support it's all falling? What has been proven to you (Jodi) that you think this proposal is better than continuing to expand on education and support?

Heather - posted on 09/30/2010

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I'm an American Jodi and I disagree that we only react to drastic change. As a matter of fact, it's the quietly ushered forth plans that are passed and the things we DON'T tell people about that are easily implemented. Our congress can't pass a bowel without arguing about it and this a subject much like abortion. No one's going to agree enough to make a change. If we start with the things that don't require an act of God, we may actually be able to change people's perception of BFing and create an environment of nurturing and support instead of an environment of hostility and hopelessness. "Drastic Reformation" and "Change" are just code words for government takeover and forced indoctrination. If we Americans really want to make a change for the best we need to stop trying to force everything on everyone and start using common sense. Start with the things we CAN effect and if that's not enough then we can work on making more drastic changes.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Kate, I guess I just don't see it that way, I really don't think that many people, moron or not, honestly think that prescriptions are better for you.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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Heather, sorry, I just noticed your post, must have popped up while I was typing my reply. First off, I'm far from pissy at anyone here, I'm smiling and really enjoying this, it's just that I opened this thread to debate the proposal, not the forms of debate which obviously I should have made clear in my OP, now I know for future threads huh?

As for WHY simple education and increased LC's alone wouldn't work, I have indeed addressed earlier on, somewhere closer to the beginning of all of this. I'm from the U.S., so keep in mind this is from my cultural view if you're from somewhere else. In America, we react only to drastic change, not little nudges or whispers in our ears (unless of course they're evil whispers telling us to take short cuts, be lazy or smart ass...as most American's are!!!!) America needs drastic reformation when it needs a change or the impact fizzles out before any benefits can be gained. To make something noteworthy to American's, you HAVE to make sure it's controversial, it's drastic and it's attention grabbing, or nothing will come of it. That is WHY increased education required by medical staff and increased LC's ALONE would not work. If you go back in the beginning, you will see that I have stated this as a reason WHY this alone wouldn't work, so I have done more than claim "I'm right, you're wrong." as you have accused.

Kate CP - posted on 09/30/2010

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I'm happy you disagree. However, most morons (read: a majority of the population) believe that stronger is better and Rx's are better than OTC.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2010

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I disagree, I think most people view prescriptions as riskier, carrying more side-effects and used for more than just everyday ailments. Point in fact, for a basic headache, are you saying that vicadin would be BETTER than tylenol? Yes, it would knock out your pain, but the health risks and side effects are much worse than tylenol carries with it, sometimes the risks DO in fact outweigh the benefits, but in a case like this, they really don't 95% of the time.

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