Puppies

[deleted account] ( 39 moms have responded )

Some people might get upset with me for posting this but to each his or her own.

Where do you draw the line between raising a big family and having a litter of puppies?

Personally, I think having nineteen kids and still pushing for more is WAY over the line. Trying for octuplets in a single gestational period is pretty insane too.

Even when you look at the litter sizes of certain breeds of dogs and cats, they only have maybe three or four healthy offspring at the most. But look at their life-span compared to ours. A healthy dog might last 20 years, same for a cat. Rodents last anywhere from two years to ten, depending on the size of the species and health factors. The smallest rodents usually live the shortest lives, and pop out anywhere from ten to fifteen babies at a single time. Same goes for reptiles and small birds. Not all of the babies live, but that's the thing: it's a survival mechanism. Bigger animals like us don't need to have fifteen babies to survive. Smaller animals, however, are lower on the food chain and die off more quickly, and so they need to mass-produce to keep the species going.

DISCLAIMER: This is just some general knowledge I've picked up over my life-time, from biology and the Discovery Channel and stuff like that. The numbers I've thrown out there are randomly generated based on my experiences, not on any statistics. So if you say I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, you're right. But you can look some of it up and see how far off base I am. I won't be too concerned.

So, where do YOU draw the line between a big family and a litter?

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Charlie - posted on 12/18/2010

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My Nanny ( mum's mum ) had 14 children and ended up working for the UN educating families in third world countries about the effects of large families from every aspect and teaching them about contraception , She learned a great deal from her experience and from further education on the matter .

The biggest point being ( as simple as it sounds ) that more mouths to feed means deeper poverty , means over population , means children skipping childhood , means less time on individual focus of each child and greater stress mentally , physically and emotionally .

All I want is two .

Shauna - posted on 12/19/2010

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If you can finacially support all your children and care for them properly than i dont think it matters how many you have. I however do not support women that continue to have numerous unplanned pregnancies living off the governments money. That in my mind is wrong.

[deleted account]

I'm still giggling about nature's french fries....

But really, anything over 5 is a litter to me. Personally, I'd like 3 and could deal with 4 but over that would probably be too many. I like kids. I work with Infants and Toddlers and really like most of them (there's always at least 1 that makes you want to rip your own hair out!) but I don't think I could provide all the things I want to provide my kids (time, space, holidays etc) if I had more than 3-4 of my own.

I think really big families, unless the kids are quite spaced out, are not ideal. Where's the quality time for Mum and Dad? I mean, obviously they're getting ample bed room time but relationships do need more than sex no matter what a man will tell you. And what about individual time for each kid? And that's not even getting into money, space and just the mechanics of having so many people under one roof. It boggles my mind.

Minnie - posted on 12/18/2010

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I think in the middle ages was when the large families were common. With no knowledge of disease process and little hygiene, poor diet, etc. children frequently died. But I'm not so sure throughout ancient human history. With traditional cultures today being an example, like the Himba and the !Kung San of Africa and South American hunter-gatherer tribes, low fat diet, active lifestyle, and ecological breastfeeding typically result in a maximum of five children throughout the woman's breastfeeding years. And they tend to be relatively disease-free because they're nomadic and don't keep livestock or store grain (although that is beginning to change in Africa).

Krista - posted on 12/18/2010

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I think you have a good point -- smaller animals do tend to be nature's french fry, so they need to reproduce in huge numbers in order to keep the species alive.

We humans, on the other hand, are rarely put in the position of being prey, and we have a very long life-span. However, the latter is fairly recent.

We used to have large families because the odds of ALL of our children reaching adulthood were slim. People had shorter life-spans. There were more diseases out there. Nutrition wasn't as good. In an agricultural society, large families were needed to help out with all of the work. So women had a lot of babies, and oftentimes, it was to the detriment of their health -- sometimes their life.

Our lifestyle, health and lifespan have changed, but our biological capacities haven't. So we're still ABLE to have litters, but a) there's no real need to in today's society and b) it's no less hard on our bodies now than it was then.

My own personal line is 4. Anything more than 4 kids and I start thinking, "Whew! Time to tie a knot in something, people!" But, if you can afford a whackload of kids, want them, and it's not destroying your body, then have at 'er.

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Nikkole - posted on 12/22/2010

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My husbands grandmother had 9 children and after her last one her female organs were pretty much falling out of her she had to have a hysterectomy! Then my Husbands mother had 6 children including him she had her first 2 in her 20's by a man she didnt marry,then she had the other 4 by some guy she wrote letters to while he was in prison when he got out the got married had 4 kids and then he left when my husband was about 3 then she was a single mother but the oldest 2 went and lived with there grandmother but my husband and the 3 younger kids had to live off the government for a LONG time she couldn't afford that many kids and that makes me soo mad is people like her ! And each one of my husbands aunts and uncle have between 2-5 kids each! So we have a huge family but i think any more than 4 is A litter and why would you want more than that! I know i wouldn't just want to be used as a baby maker lol !!!

Tara - posted on 12/22/2010

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I have a litter. lol
My oldest son is 17 my youngest son is 1 year and I have 5, 8 and almost 10 year old daughters and another son who is 14.
My youngest is from my current relationship, he is the baby that proves the pill doesn't always work.
My oldest currently lives with my ex and the rest with me 50 percent of the time.
I love all my kids and if I had 19 I would love them all as well. My love is like a candle, I can light 6 candles and mine still burns as bright.
There is enough of me to go around, we aren't rich but we don't suffer.
The kids all have their own room and we still have a spare room, we have tons of fun as a family and there is never a dull moment.
While there will be more financial struggles as time goes on, with post secondary education, car insurance etc. etc. we will meet those needs when they come up.
I love my big family, I had one brother and we were only 19 months apart, but totally different personalities.
I love the diversity in my life, I love the different relationships that I have with each of my kids.
So, for some there are reasons for large families, might not be for everyone, but it is what makes my world go around... (sometimes so fast I'm dizzy, lol)
:)

[deleted account]

My ideals have nothing to do with God I just love children. Ive noticed that once you go over two you dont really have any more work with three or four the house gets noisier but thats about it.

Nikki - posted on 12/21/2010

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First of all, on the animal thing, yes dogs and cat can have litters as small as one but I have seen litters as large as 13. Also, they are most fertile within the first month after giving birth. So if you look at it that way a cat who has an average litter size of 5 and gets pregnant every 3 months can have 20 kittens in a year. And cats aren't largely preyed upon in this time.

Second, how many children you have is a personal choice. I have no problem with people having many children IF they can support them. It is not your place to judge. Also, these large families you are speaking of are often following what they interpret as the word of God. THe Bible says to be fruitful and multiply, and it also says "As arrows in a quiver, so are the children of one's youth."

The "quiverfull" movement comes from this. It is difficult to raise one child at a time, much less 15, or 19 but being able to handle it and raise your children in the way they should go is a testament to the strength of the parents.

So where to some people having many children might look like stupidity or not knowing what is causing that to happen, to someone with many children who believes in the quiverfull mentality having only one or two children might look like squandering God's gift or not being strong enough in mind and body to handle a house full of kids.

Just another point of view ladies.

[deleted account]

Erin, that's crazy! I agree, that doctor should have been thrown in jail for that mess. Oh, and I'm not sure if you saw my post before I edited it. Before edit, I was referring to Octomom, but I figured I should make it more general.

And I guess I can see why she'd feel that way but good lord, if she was okay with IVF in the first place maybe she could have given at least a few of the embryos to other moms who wanted IVF. I know they wouldn't be their babies, but it'd be like pre-birth adoption...At least the poor woman wouldn't be carrying so many at one time!

Just something random I thought of. I think of random things like that...I know she probably wouldn't agree to something like that, nor would the other hypothetical moms, but it could have been an option...

Ez - posted on 12/21/2010

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Jamie, it is my understanding that she didn't want to leave any embryos behind because of her beliefs on when life starts. She felt that discarding the embryos would be like killing a baby (I thoroughly disagree, but this is her belief).

Ez - posted on 12/21/2010

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The optimal number of children is such a personal choice, and I think it should stay that way. For me, anything more than 5 would be a litter. I personally would like 3, but my daughter may well remain an only child due to the fact I am an single mother.

On the topic of Octomom, I saw a report on her that said there was an investigation into her fertility treatments, and it found the doctor actually implanted 12 embryos. If that is true, he should be in jail. What if all those embryos implanted? She would have died!!

[deleted account]

I'm surprised they put so many fertilized eggs in a single woman at one time, really. I mean, why not just two? Four at the most? I know it's possible for the eggs to not implant with IVF, but still...soooo many? Why??

Stifler's - posted on 12/20/2010

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She is one person I disagree with letting have IVF. Seriously. 14 kids or whatever. Who pays for them? The government.

Sharon - posted on 12/20/2010

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I'm not thrilled with large families. But at least the child one moment that belongs them and only to them - their birth.

its the octuplets and shit that make my eyes bleed. octo mom should have had all her kids taken from her.

we still only hear about her, and never the kids, why? because so many of them have issues.

Vegemite - posted on 12/20/2010

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for me, this is just a personal thing, two is enough. I think you have to be gifted as a parent or crazy to have anymore kids than you have hands.

[deleted account]

Well I have four and would have many more if I could but my house is too small. I dont see what the problem is with sharing bedrooms I did it when I was young. My oldest two kids have always been together, they dont remember a time when they werent and if one of them goes somewhere for more than a few hours the other is walking around lost. I dont dump all the work on the kids and never would yes they help out but they probably do less chores than most kids their age because they are always out at activities. I think if people can afford to keep their kids then its none of anyone elses business.

[deleted account]

Dana, lol, I'm pretty sure I'll like my own daughter, but she's not here yet xD I meant kids in general. The kids in my area are evil little brats for the most part and are as Emma put it, "hell spawn." They do all they can to piss their parents and the general public off. Believe me, I rode a bus my senior year of high school and there were plenty of little kids picking fights with me and my brother. One (he was in like third grade or something) wouldn't stop until I got physical with the little brat. He was such a little shit...ugh.

But I know not all kids are like that. I just don't like most of the kids I've had experiences with.

At the same time, I know a lot of them are like that because their parents don't discipline them, but some of them are just like that. Like hubby's best friend's little brother, or his former step-sister, but that's another story.

Amanda - posted on 12/19/2010

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I have 4 kids and do inhome daycare...I'm with kids day in and day out...don't get me wrong I love my daycare kids just like I love my own! But for us 4 is it. My fiance wouldn't mind a child of his own but he's almost 29 and I'm 24...the 4 children I have are expensive enough. We are able to give them each what they want and enough one on one time...but as for another anytime soon probably not...probably never actually...once you get into a routine I don't really want to ubrupt it by bringing in another money theiving child! Lol...but yes i love my children and wouldn't take any of them back. But as for the woman who have more than 10 kids nowadays...that to me is selfish...is absolutley uneccasary...those children will have no fun childhood memories except for taking care of one another while mom works on another baby...4 is plenty! :)

Doreen - posted on 12/19/2010

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I don't know if we should compare - every person has their own limit. For some... none and for others 19 and pushing. I just want to tell you this story... I met a lady who did face painting at the mall (we sat for a face paint :) Anyway, we started talking and it turns out she has 7 children between ages 6 and 21. I was amazed that she had time to face paint which was by the way her hobby and for fun... so I asked a bit about her kids and how she copes. She home schools them - they all over achievers. Her son that was there (besides for being a beautiful boy) was super bright, had fantastic manners, was excelling in his sports (soccer) and still had that sense of twinkle in the eye that so many "modern" kids seem to have lost about life in general. Why am I battling to cope with homework for 2? I think we meant to be part of a bigger picture. I was so bothered by how could she do so great and I am struggling to keep ahead with 3 and I can hardly manage over seeing the homework never mind homeschool. Some people just can and there is no formula to who and what. We take what we handed and we do the most. No one can tell you where your bench mark lies.



O sorry but I do think it is bad if you USE the "children" to buy a lifestyle off the government.

Stifler's - posted on 12/19/2010

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i don't like other people's hell spawn either, especially if they come over and immediately want to raid my fridge and pantry

[deleted account]

Oh, ok....for me, it just depends on who's kids they are and what the kid is like. Some I absolutely adore and others irritate the hell out of me. Sorta like adults! ;)

Kate CP - posted on 12/19/2010

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I don't like kids, either. I like *MY* kids...but I usually can't stand other people's kids. Whenever some one tells me I should be a teacher I can't help but look at them like they have a second head.

Stifler's - posted on 12/19/2010

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I can't understand people wanting tonnes of kids in this day and age. For me it's like have the kids, go back to work and do something for myself that I've put off to stay home with the kids for then spoil the grandchildren. Can you really do that when you have 20 kids?? Can you even relax or go on holidays or anything? Dogs can have tonnes of kids easily, because all they do is eat and sleep and the babies feed off their teats while they lie around. by the time they have a second litter where are the first? off doing their own thing. when we have a second our first is still a baby that needs closeness with their mother and meanwhile there is laundry since we have social conventions that don't include sniffing other's butts.

Petra - posted on 12/19/2010

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Yeah, I'm kind of with you, Jaime. My partner raises the issue of having another baby, but since my little guy has all of his bits and has textbook development, I feel extremely lucky and would be loathe to go through another pregnancy and birthing experience. I've told him, and he's agreed, that if we want and can afford another child down the road, I would much rather look at adopting.

[deleted account]

Four kids is too many to me. I don't want more than two, ever. Hubby and I are thinking about stopping altogether with this one. So many things could happen. My second pregnancy could be text-book hideous (I've had a pretty damn good first one so far, and it'll be over soon) with pains and bleeding and morning sickness and all the stuff you DON'T want while you're pregnant. I might become pregnant with twins. We might not have the money to raise a second child, ever. We don't plan on staying where we are now, and hope to move out of state within the next five years. Schooling, lodging, food, clothes, the list goes on and on. And I don't even like kids, generally.

So for me, one is really all I need or want, and if I'd had my way I would rather adopt than bring another innocent child into this despicable world. I'd rather provide a loving home and family to a child who has had no such thing because his/her parents couldn't or wouldn't.

[deleted account]

It was extremely over crowded. Before my mom refinished the basement. I had to share not only a bedroom, but a bed with my two younger sisters. It pissed me off, I had no breathing space, I didn't even have my own stuff until i moved out. I coudn't even go to the bathroom or take a shower without someone walking in on me. I really don't care what anyone else says about big families being great for kids. Its not. The only good thing about it, is the fact I have my siblings. I do have a good relationship with them now. BUT i did move out of my home town so i didn't have to put up with them coming over whenever they felt like it.They need to drive 4 hours for that.

Jess - posted on 12/18/2010

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What really shits me out these couples that breed like rabbits is that its their children that suffer. While mum pops the next kid out only to get herself knocked up again next cycle, its the kids who's living space is reduced. Often *not always* these children all have to share a room. I heard of a lady through my work that have 5 kids in 3 bedroom home. Mum and Dad in 1 room. 3 Kids in another and 2 in the other. So when these babies are walking out of mum's vagina just dump another bed in the already over crowded bedroom... mum and dad need their privacy for the baby making !

I have big issue's with parents being selfish !!! Sorry for my rant.

[deleted account]

@Bonnie



that's usually how it works. I hated being the eldest girl, i had so much responsibility. I was like,,7 getting up first thing in the morning to give Tina her bottle, then i had to pack the lunches and get cereal together for my other sisters before i could start getting myself ready for school.

Bonnie - posted on 12/18/2010

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Personally for me, I think 2 or 3 kids is a fair number, 4 at the most. Just to be able to give enough time and attention to each one and make them feel equal. It also means more money for each child and less stress overall.

When you mention the part about having 19 kids and still pushing for more are you refering to the show '19 kids and counting'. If you are, I can't help but get the vibe whenever I turn to that show that the older kids are used to take care of the younger ones.

[deleted account]

Are we talking about kids or puppies? Why is everything confusing me today? LMFAO!

I would never own more than one dog at a time. 5 kids is pushing it but 6 is definitely a litter in my books. I wouldn't have more than 3 personally and I'm pretty sure we're stopping at 2.

[deleted account]

Well. All together i have ten brothers and sisters. I think its awesome that I had so many friends who lived with me :P I also think my mother is a little bit crazy for having so many kids. It burdened me a little being the 2nd oldest. I was changing diapers before i was out of them. I had too much responsibility too young. I think two or three is a good amount on average. Ones enough for me right now.

Barb - posted on 12/18/2010

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Love me some Monty Python.

I only gave birth to one child but i think the line between family and litter is 6. No stats or facts behind it, just my opinion and pulling a number out of my ass.

Petra - posted on 12/18/2010

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Bah, this always makes me think along the lines of over-population of the earth and its inability to sustain a population that is increasing exponentially. Don't get me wrong, having a family is great; but I can't even wrap my head around how someone could deal with 19 kids - I inevitably picture that Monty Python skit with the Catholic family singing about how every sperm is sacred.

[deleted account]

No, Kate, that's a wonderful analogy xD my mom says the same thing, basically. As long as they can go home at the end of the day xD

Jenn - posted on 12/18/2010

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I think if you can afford it and it's what you want and nobody is getting hurt in the process, either physically or emotionally, then go for it. I'm happy with my 3 biological kids and 1 step-daughter.

Kate CP - posted on 12/18/2010

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I dislike owning puppies. Yes, I am a dog trainer and I don't like puppies. I like OTHER PEOPLE'S puppies because I don't have to take them home. :D

Bad analogy for me, I guess. ;)

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