Purity? What is it?

[deleted account] ( 102 moms have responded )

A spin off from the HPV vaccine risk thread. The following comment was made:



Stay pure for the man of your dreams... you will be glad you did as the best gift you can give him is a pure self! ♥



This got me on a rant which I'll continue here.



What exactly do they mean by purity? Why is it only women that it's addressed to? I think about these purity movements with mild distaste. Not so much that they want girls to wait to have sex which isn't necessarily a bad thing as most young girls aren't ready to face motherhood (exceptions are out there of course). Many young people also aren't prepared to be 100% cautious in their use of birth control and condom use.



However it's the tone that gets me and the fact that despite what they say, this purity is invariably directed at the females. Think of the Purity balls where girls are exhorted to pledge their purity, aka viginity to their fathers till marriage. You cannot point to any time period where men were taught to remain virginal till marriage with equal vigor. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't even happen now. I haven't seen a Purity ball where a boy pledges his virginity to his mother till marriage. Only girls seem to be the focus and why?



I sayt it's because certain groups are desperately trying to get back to the days when you married one kind while dated the other. That girls who 'did it' were fallen, hopeless sluts that were the object of gossipy people on a Sunday morning. To the days of the Magdalene laundries and the homes for unwed mothers where their children were regularly removed from them at birth. Some of the girls were glad to get rid of them to avoid that "Impure" label while others were left with holes in their heart for the loss of their child.



But back in the halcyon days of the 50s (snort), it wasn't called purity. It was just done. Mind you this was a far cry better than the honor killings portrayed in the bible (Jesus saving the woman from being stoned is another post for another time but Conservapedia says that story never happened anyway - LOL).



It's the whole SHAME factor though that I find utterly disgusting. Yes, we want to bring back SEXUAL SHAME! Make a person feel shameful for a very normal, very human desire and you can twist that person all over the place. I dont' want to hear how sublime sex is when you've never been with anyone else. That's utterly beside the point and also a very new concept. Let's face it, womens' enjoyment of sex has always carried the shame factor until very recently.



So purity movements IMO have zilch to do with actually remaining virgins. It has everything to do with bringing shame back to sex and I for one find that utterly and ironically shameful.

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Johnny - posted on 04/17/2012

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"I respect any choice that is freely made.



I do not respect the concept that I am bad or sinful because I enjoy non-marital sexual relationships. I do not respect the concept that the woman who still has her hymen is more pure than the one who does not regardless of how that happened. I do not respect the concept woman bleeding on her wedding night is a sign of purity. I do not respect the concept that virginity is pure because it automatically concludes that non-virginity is contaminated"






Perfectly said Jen. My opposition to the "purity" movement is not an opposition to people choosing to remain virgins. It is an opposition to the idea that virginity is an inherently good thing, a universally moral choice and that non-virginity is sinful, bad, and wrong.

[deleted account]

Jen, So it is better to experience the uncomfortable times with someone who doesn't love and care about you to marry you.

I never mentioned anything about casual encounters. Interesting leap there. I didn't say one was better, I'm saying that if you are supposed to consider it sacred yet still don't enjoy it (with one's husband) then that could be very upsetting.

I guess sharing that with the man who has pledged his love for me, and promised to love me the way that Christ loved the church, which means that He should be willing to give his life for me. The Bible teaches that men should Cherish women.

No, it only does that in some places.

There are many groups that have changed or taken things out of context when it comes to the Bilble. I know the word submit makes women cringe, me too, until I came to a place where I had no choice but to allow my husband to be the head of the house.

I wasn't even referring to that passage. I was referring to the passages that give instructions on how to sell your daughter into slavery including how much and to whom. I'm looking at passages that discuss invading a neighboring tribe's lands for the sole purpose of kidnapping women for wives. Now let's contemplate those women specifically. Let's put ourselves in the shoes of those women. You've just been kidnapped and stolen from your family whom you loved. You may not speak the language of your kidnapper who suddenly makes it clear that you're his wife. Are you now going to say, "Oh, ok I'll enter into this conjugal bed with joy" or "I don't want to marry you! Help, I"m being raped!" Or put yourself in the shoes of the Midian virgins who watched their entire families including their infant baby brothers murdered by the man who now says he's going to marry you after he shaves your head and gives you a month to mourn your murdered family. Will you now enter that union with joy? Seriously? Perhaps if you sufferd some Stockholm Syndrome but as a whole, I would never ever every willingly marry a man and have sex with him after I watched him murder my father, mother and brothers.

I'm not taking things out of context at all. i'm looking at the Bible as whole because I've studied it as a whole.

After years of studing and being mentored by godly women, I can honestly say, I like my husband being "in charge". He respects me and my opinions, he treats me very well, I know that he would do anything for me or for our children. Is he perfect no, but neither am I, and we know that about each other.

That's nice but that's your marriage. You are under the misapprehension that this is how it always worked.

God has plans for us and He laid out the path that is best for us. It is always up to us to follow it. I hope we will go to a time where sex, is still considered wonderful, so wonderful that you save it for the person you marry and will spend the rest of your life with.

Then we'd be at a place that has never existed in human history or Biblical history for that matter.

Look, I haven't and still do not denigrate any woman's right to choose. That choice may be to be sexually active when she's emotionally ready to do it or to wait until she's married or to never have sex ever. That choice may be to have as many partners are you can schedule in a day or to be utterly monogamous to your spouse. That choice also includes to be employed outside the home or to be a SAHM. That choice includes being subservient (in your definition of the Bible terminology) or to be the one in charge. These are choices that we should always respect.

I respect any choice that is freely made.

I do not respect the concept that I am bad or sinful because I enjoy non-marital sexual relationships. I do not respect the concept that the woman who still has her hymen is more pure than the one who does not regardless of how that happened. I do not respect the concept woman bleeding on her wedding night is a sign of purity. I do not respect the concept that virginity is pure because it automatically concludes that non-virginity is contaminated.

[deleted account]

Just because you make your kids wait till marriage to have sex, doesn't mean you'll spare them feeling pressured into it once they get there. There is something incredibly pressuring about the expectations of having sex on your wedding night, especially if you're a virgin. It's really bizarre, we were told so much about waiting but nothing about what to do when we got there. Or how to just all of a sudden not associate having sex with going to hell. How to suddenly see it as a "pure" and wonderful thing when up till that moment it was sin. One moment you were not allowed to have sex with this guy, your parents were watching you like hawkes while you're around him, the next he's you're "Husband" and has every right to every private part of you and your body.

I don't think that kind of thinking allows for any transitional fase. You can't do anything together before marrige, no sex, no living together, and then over night all of that becomes an expectation. I don't think that's right or natural. It would probably be best to slowly transition though those phases in a natural progression, as the couple become more emotionally attached, committed to the relationship and trusting of each other.
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Emphasis mine. I think this is the part I liked Best about Jenny's post. This sort of thinking can't just be 'turned off' on the wedding night when suddenly sex is OK and magical. I think if you're raised in that 'pure' environment it msut stick with you at least in the back of your mind. How does something utterly sinful become NOT overnight? Does that marriage ceremony really cancel out all sin?

Perhaps that is a theological concept that I just can't get. To me it's like in my highly Catholic Buffalo where they abstain from meat on Fridays' during Lent UNLESS St Patrick's Day falls on a Friday and then the Bishop gives a dispensation so everyone can gorge on corned beef and cabbage. Ok, before it was a bad and now magically it's good? Truely, I swwear I'm not trying to be rude but it boggles my mind.

[deleted account]

Joanne, I've read the entire Bible multiple times. The Song of Solomon while I agree is a truly beautiful poem about love and lovemaking is an exception to the Bible's normal attitude towards sex and women.

I have a concern about the concept of sex as a sacred act. Here's my thought process. I had to do it myself a lot of times before it became remotely enjoyable due to a variety of issues. Now If I had been under the belief that this rather painful, unpleasant act was supposed to be sacred, I would have been hurting emotionally even more that I wasn't able to enjoy something that was supposed to be so Sacred to God. Maybe that's just me and my own experiences certainly but it does give me pause.

I mean, those jokes about women hiding in the bathroom on their wedding nights had to come from somewhere.

Jenny - posted on 04/12/2012

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My husband and I were raised Christians and we were both "pure" when we got married. Yes, I am glad we both waited, it is very sweet to know you're the only one your husband's ever had. But personally, just because I waited till I was married, did not guarantee that I had awesome- mind-blowing-soul-joining-deep-and-meaningful-sex. What a farce that turned out to be. That kind of sex came later in more natural situations and with experience.



Reading these posts, you know what resounded with me? When someone said something like "What is not okay is when people have sex when they're not ready, due to pressure."



Just because you make your kids wait till marriage to have sex, doesn't mean you'll spare them feeling pressured into it once they get there. There is something incredibly pressuring about the expectations of having sex on your wedding night, especially if you're a virgin. It's really bizarre, we were told so much about waiting but nothing about what to do when we got there. Or how to just all of a sudden not associate having sex with going to hell. How to suddenly see it as a "pure" and wonderful thing when up till that moment it was sin. One moment you were not allowed to have sex with this guy, your parents were watching you like hawkes while you're around him, the next he's you're "Husband" and has every right to every private part of you and your body.



I don't think that kind of thinking allows for any transitional fase. You can't do anything together before marrige, no sex, no living together, and then over night all of that becomes an expectation. I don't think that's right or natural. It would probably be best to slowly transition though those phases in a natural progression, as the couple become more emotionally attached, committed to the relationship and trusting of each other.

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Sal - posted on 04/18/2012

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I agree with the statement "I respect any choice that is freely made" Parents need to understand that their children maynot follow their beliefs and have to prepare them to deal with situations that they might face... They need to teach them to have respect for themselves and be confident in the choices they are going to make, I just had this congersation with a friend last week who is very faithful and committed to her faith and she did remain a virgin until she married and made that choice on her own, she said there was no way she could of been strong In her conviction for so long (she married at 33) is she was just following her parents rules, she either would of just done it or married anyone who asked at 18, it was her personal faith that gave her the strength to hold on to her deciosion,

Jenny - posted on 04/17/2012

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"No where in the Bible does it say sex is shameful."



Joanne, it say's this plenty of times in the bible. You're probably referring to sex IN MARRIGE.



Sex outside of marriage is portrayed as a sin against your own body, fornicators and adulterers are told they will not inherit the kingdom of God, its a "work of the flesh", sex before marriage is something "unrighteous people" engage in, if you do have sex before marriage you shall have part in the "lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" and the bible advises "To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

Jennifer - posted on 04/17/2012

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So here's my deal- My girls are expected to wait. It is not something we talk about endlessly. We discuss the how's and why's of sex and babies. My girls are put on BC at 14 or 15 (the shot, so I have some control of that) due to it helping with uncomfortable mood swings and periods. We discuss the reasons for them being on BC at that time. I also point out that WHEN they decide to have sex,the BC is ONLY good for stopping a preganancy, and not always good for that! We then discuss condoms. They are told that if they are too embarressed to carry/use condoms, that would be a clear sign they are not ready for sex. Condoms are placed in their dresser, and I check every so often. So far no restocking with my girls........They KNOW I expect them to wait, I don't need to drill it in more, they either will or they won't. They do need to know that I love them, no matter what, and that I expect them protect themselves, and they need to know HOW.



My boys can't be put on BC. My boys are entering an area where they have little to no control over ANYTHING once their little sperms wiggle free. I do try to scare them. I beg and plead with them to wait. I tell them every horror story I've ever heard! I stock their dressers with economy sized boxes of condoms! I treat their GF's just like my husband treats my girls BFs! I meet the girls parents, and they are expected to eat dinner with our family early in the relationship. My oldest(20) now has a GF that he is having sex with. It embarrassed everyone, but, yes, we talked abut family planning together!



Maybe I am going overboard with my boys, but having two brothers and a husband who have spent thousands of dollars just to be able to visit their kids,(that doesn't include child support) I don't think I am. My husband has a cousin who is not yet 30 and has 6 kids by 6 women. His youngest is 4 weeks old. In every case he claims to have been tricked.......that will NOT be my boys! "It's not my fault" will not fly in this house!!



I expect my boys to be responsible, I expect them to take a leadership role. I expect them to use common sense. I don't mind my boys dating a girl who has 'slept around' because that is not how you judge a womans worth, but I do expect them to be smart enough to stay off the Muary show. I think the people who are only going after the girls to stay 'pure' have it backwards. We've been doing that since time began.........insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results............it's time we teach our boys that they can control the zipper on their pants. Boys may be boys, but mine get cut no slack in this area, and anyone who thinks their son doesn't have the ability to think with his big head, is selling their son way short. We held our girls to a high standard for a long time, it's time we teach our boys the same things.

User - posted on 04/17/2012

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Jen, So it is better to experience the uncomfortable times with someone who doesn't love and care about you to marry you. I guess sharing that with the man who has pledged his love for me, and promised to love me the way that Christ loved the church, which means that He should be willing to give his life for me. The Bible teaches that men should Cherish women.
There are many groups that have changed or taken things out of context when it comes to the Bilble. I know the word submit makes women cringe, me too, until I came to a place where I had no choice but to allow my husband to be the head of the house. After years of studing and being mentored by godly women, I can honestly say, I like my husband being "in charge". He respects me and my opinions, he treats me very well, I know that he would do anything for me or for our children. Is he perfect no, but neither am I, and we know that about each other.
God has plans for us and He laid out the path that is best for us. It is always up to us to follow it. I hope we will go to a time where sex, is still considered wonderful, so wonderful that you save it for the person you marry and will spend the rest of your life with.

User - posted on 04/17/2012

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No where in the Bible does it say sex is shameful. Please read Song of Solomon, for example. It is just supposed to be between a husband and wife. The purity movements do include boys as well. But it is amazing if girls say "no" the boys will as well. It is about respect for each other. I have 3 boys and 1 girl. She happens to be 15 and a virgin. He father and I have enc her not to date until she is older, and to remember that dating is preparation for marriage. She has had 1 "boyfriend" and they used the term "courting" which puts the emphasis on getting to know each other, whereas they feel that "dating" puts more pressure on sex. I really liked that boy and they are still friends, just friends.
God didn't mean sex to be shameful, it is only when it is outside of what He intended for us. As for what is in the Bible I would research that and not just look at one place. I support my daughter's pledge of purity and will enc my boys to do that as well. They will respect the women in their lives enough to wait and share one of the wonderful things that God created for us until they are married.

Jenny - posted on 04/15/2012

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The domination I grew up in do funny things too. Their women are not allowed to wear pants because it's a sin to wear men's clothing. But...and there always is a but, isn't there? if its cold or the woman is working outside, its perfectly okay for her to put pants on, underneath a skirt. Speaking of purity, somehow the skirt makes the pant's pure.

And to tie that in to the topic; "marrige" is sort of like the skirt in this scenario, and it makes unpure things pure.

There is some abuse that goes on in that community which is made justified by "marrige". i.e husband's being physically and verbally abusive to their wives. Somehow no one dares to intervene because that may lead to that marrige to break up (divorce) and noone wants that to happen.

[deleted account]

You obviously arent' in a highly ethnic Catholic area. They do things like that all the time around here.

Jenny - posted on 04/15/2012

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I've never heard of St Patrick's day being an exception to abstaining from meat of Fridays. Too funny!

Lacye - posted on 04/14/2012

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The whole purity thing started way back when the most valuable thing was a woman's virginity. Alliances between countries were based on if a woman was "pure".



However, in this day and age, it's completely backwards. Women are no longer used like a breeding cow. Women are more out in the open with their sexuality.



Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with a person (whether man or woman) saving their virginity until marriage. It is one of the few things in life that you can only give away once and it is very precious. For most youths, at least some of the ones I've met, it's not about being ashamed of sexuality. Practicing abstinence is something they honestly want to do.

Cyndel - posted on 04/14/2012

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Just so you know, I thought this was my Christian moms group not Debating moms. The bible says to judge Christians by the bible only. If you aren't a Christian then I will only hold you to civil law. Only if you are a Christian will I hold you to civil law AND the bible.

It isn't against civil law anymore to have sex out side of marriage (with certain restrictions, underage etc.) so as long as you don't claim to be Christian I don't care as long as you aren't hurting anyone else in the process.

Merry - posted on 04/14/2012

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I know a lot of virgins lol. All female cuz I don't talk to guy friends about sex haha. One is 25, never kissed a guy even, one is 26, engaged, one 24, one 23, one 22, one 21, one who just married as a virgin at 23. So yeah, not super old but not like 18-19 like I was" and for the record I didn't marry young to have sex, I married young because my dad kicked me out and I had no where to live so we figured might as well marry and get an apt.

Merry - posted on 04/14/2012

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I think purity balls are creepy and weird and sexist.

But I do think being a virgin til marriage is a good thing at least in my faith.

I wouldn't look down on anyone for having sex out of marriage, but for me and my kids I am of the nelief that saving your body for your husband or wife is best.

Mostly it comes down to my faith so I feel it's highly personal and not my place to put my beliefs on anyone else.

But I will be trying to teach my kids to not have sex or sexual actions til marriage.

Jodi - posted on 04/14/2012

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I didn't wait until marriage to have sex, but my husband was my first and still my only. I was also his first, and still his only. We waited until we were engaged, we lived together only long enough to plan our wedding. We have been together for 9 years, we've been married for just shy of 5 years. I have mind blowing, awesome sex, I have the past experience to tell me that sex with my husband is earth shatteringly good. What past experience? OUR past experience, we learned TOGETHER, I know his body like I know my own body, he knows my body like he knows his own. We are comfortable with each other and explore many things sexually together. I don't need to have other sexual partners under my belt to know when it's amazing sex. THAT little way of thinking drives me crazy!!!! lol



I was ready and willing to marry my husband when we had been dating for only 6 months, we almost did get married, but our parents asked us to wait and so we did. We got married when we were 22 instead of 18-19. My marriage is amazing, it has its hard times, and we work them. I like to think we will be together until we die, but I'm not naive enough to think that things or people can't change. Shit happens, and I trust we will work through whatever comes our way, but there's no such thing as 100% guarantee.



I don't like the word "pure" in context with virginity, I never thought of myself as "pure", I was a virgin, and so was he. So in that regard, yeah, "purity" groups are crap. I also think that virginity should be equally important for the males as well as the females in these groups.



Lastly, I am not religous, I am Pagan, virginity was something I chose for myself without any outside forces influencing directly. I'm sure my parents assumed we were having sex long before we actually did.



As for marrying young, everyone I know married young, and my husband and I are the only ones who weren't sexually active early in the relationship (early being a few months in, we waited a couple of years). So, in that respect, the age of getting married has no bearing on waiting in terms of people I know, people just get married young in my area I guess!

Sylvia - posted on 04/13/2012

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Rebecca, I also have observant Jewish friends (I'm Jewish, too, but not that religious!) who were/are shomer negiyah -- that means you don't touch people of the opposite sex whom you aren't related to, and when I say "don't touch" I mean *not at all* -- and yeah, they not only married really young but married really soon. And sometimes it works out great, and other times ... not so much.

Mrs. - posted on 04/13/2012

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My close friend who married, due to her faith (she's Jewish), when they were both virgins, married at a young age. She told me, part of it was just not wanting to wait any longer to be with him sexually. I don't blame her, I probably would have gotten married at 19, if I thought the only way I could have sex, without going to hell or something, was to get married.

Interestingly, they were married for about 7 years or so and then there was some big issues. He cheated on her and he had to deal with some severe depression. They are still together, after a great deal of therapy and work. Still, waiting until you are married to live together and have sex does not mean you can avoid heartache, depression, cheating or any of the things non-married folks have to deal with.

Sylvia - posted on 04/13/2012

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I noticed that too, Krista! I think we should also bear in mind that comparatively recently, sixteen or seventeen was a not unusual age for girls to get married ... at a time when girls tended to hit puberty later. (Men got married later usually, but then there was much less expectation that men would be "sexually pure", as several people upthread have mentioned, seeing as how men couldn't get pregnant...)

Cyndel - posted on 04/13/2012

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Um I have a friend that is a virgin will be marrying in about a year...after she turns 31. The man is also a virgin and the same age.

I've known many who married in their 30's and later as virgins.

Krista - posted on 04/13/2012

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One thing that I've noted about a lot of people who strongly advocate for the idea of waiting until marriage...

They all married young.

And not to be snarky, but I'm thinking it's fairly easy to admonish people to wait until marriage when you only had to wait a fairly short time, in the grand scheme of things.

Cyndel - posted on 04/13/2012

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I believe in purity because sex is precious. and yes I do believe as does everyone I know personally who believes in purity that it is just as important for a man to be sexually pure as a women.

I expect my sons to exhibit self control and wait for their wives, There father did, when we married he was 21 and I was 19, we were both virgins, we held hands, and kissed, but no fondling, no touching besides, shoulders, face, and hands. These were our own rules that we placed on ourselves then told our friends and family so they could help us keep them. I couldn't imagine being with any man who wasn't my husband, not just my husband W. but my husband period.

Sex is so intimate and requires such trust, I could never give that to a man who hadn't bound himself to me and me to him. The thought makes me shudder.

Sylvia - posted on 04/12/2012

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So sorry for your loss, Jen. May his memory be a blessing to you and your family.

Krista - posted on 04/12/2012

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Oh Jen...i'm so sorry to hear about your father. You're in my thoughts, sweetie...

[deleted account]

Are you saying I cannot believe in sin because you don't? or that I just can't say it in public? I am confused and I am not being sarcastic.

--
This is the only thing I have time to answer as I'm on the way to the funeral home. My father died yesterday.

I am saying that to call me a sinner is insulting and as insulting as calling you a whore. If you wouldn't want me calling you a whore in public, then I would ask you not to call me a sinner in public.

Jennifer - posted on 04/11/2012

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I NEVER regret my son and I am sorry if others feel I should somehow.. I agree that purity is defined by the motive of the heart when something is given. The prostitute gave her last bottle of perfume to bathing the feet of Jesus.... it was the most honored gift because it was given with a pure heart. I may be a single mom and not able to give my body as that symbol.. but rest assured, my heart is still encasing many treasures. If you put your heart and mind to waiting then you have my full support and blessing ABSOLUTELY 100%.. however if you do decide otherwise, I will still support and bless you and encourage you. I feel that its not for me to judge that as I know how it is to be talked about on Sunday morning and the silent stoning from community and past friends.. but its made me see.. its made me see that people in REAL life need REAL love.

[deleted account]

Okay, Johnny I have no problem with saying virginity instead of purity. Impurity can also mean "a state of immorality, sin" that would be the definition that applies, that is Christian theology. It will never be changed There will always be exceptions, and I am sorry for your friend. I can come up with many examples where sex outside of marriage ended terribly causing the individual incredible pain, all of those stories are not going to change your mind either.

Meme, we disagree. I got nothing else. I don't believe that cohabitating is helpful, you do.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/11/2012

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Michele---So I answer quoting you meme where you say you would DISAPROVE, meaning that you would simply disaprove of waiting right? or did I read it wrong?



MeMe---You would have to marry them soon after meeting them, like before moving in together.....no? I would disapprove of this for sure."



I would disapprove of someone, such as my children marrying anyone soon after meeting them. I think that would be a very unethical move, simply because they would not know this person well enough and I would fear they were getting in way over their heads (nothing to do with sex). No, no where there did I say that I disapprove waiting, I simply would not want my children to marry someone, when they have not figured out what type of person they are first. ;)



Now, if you can live with someone for a few years and not have sexual relations, cool. I just don't know anyone that could.

Johnny - posted on 04/11/2012

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The use of the term purity to describe virginity directly says that those who are not virgins are thus impure. Terms such as contaminated and dirty are synonyms of impure. So by stating that:



virginity = purity, cleanliness, etc.



you are stating that:



non-virginity = impurity, contamination, etc.



As I said previously, I think the term virginity really does suffice. As does the phrase "choosing to wait for marriage". One is a technical term and the other just describes a choice. They do not carry assumptions or judgments. And they pretty clearly describe the situation.



"most of the point in abstinence has to do with emotional baggage that tends to come with not waiting"



I find this to be quite a huge assumption. There is emotional baggage in life. My girlfriend who did chose to wait until marriage actually carries a huge amount with her, and I spend hours on chat with her trying to help her through things because she can not talk to her husband about her feelings. She's got more issues than most of my other close girlfriends who are not virgins combined. I really haven't observed some sort of big psychological deficit that comes along with chosing extra-marital sex as a mature person. I would agree that if someone is not emotionally mature and ready for more intense things, it would be a bad choice. But then, they probably are not really ready for marriage either.

[deleted account]

Umm I never said anyone was, dirty, contaminated or ignorant. Why are you assuming that is what I mean. I also don't believe that a person who waits is better then someone who does not wait. I never said any of that. I am trying to understand and answer your questions. My teaching my children abstinence has nothing to do with what you teach your children, if we don't have the same belief system it would be silly to hold you accountable for your actions according to my set of values.

I ask all of you what am I supposed to say? What would satisfy you? Where we can maintain seperate but respectfully different views?

[deleted account]

From Jen:
"So its not okay for me to want my children to wait because it is part of my morals and values?
---

Show me where ANYONE suggested that. "

So I answer quoting you meme where you say you would DISAPROVE, meaning that you would simply disaprove of waiting right? or did I read it wrong?

"I guess, I just don't believe in marriage unless it is absolutely for sure, you have been together and lived together for a few years. How can you be and live with someone for years and not have that close sexual relationship with them? You would have to marry them soon after meeting them, like before moving in together.....no? I would disapprove of this for sure."

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/11/2012

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Michele---This shows that some do not believe in waiting. Meme I am not trying to pick on you I am just saying that it has been said here that waiting is not fully supported.



Ah, what I was saying was that for me, I do not agree that a person must wait. Since, I believe in first living with the person for a couple years before marrying. So, I was asking the question, of how, with my belief system, could a person live with their mate (unmarried) for "x" amount of years and not have sexual relations.



You're correct, waiting is not fully supported in some people's belief system. However, I do have respect for those that do believe in waiting, as well. I respect both sides, I just believe no one should be told they have to wait (but can if you are not fully ready). I would never call the non-waiting side "dirty" (contaminated) nor would I call the other side "ignorant" for waiting.



I believe it is up to the individual. If one feels best with giving themselves to a man/woman that they have been committed to but not married, I feel that is their right, without being made to feel bad about it. If another feels it is best to wait until they have said their vows, I feel that is their right.



I feel it is wrong for either side to say the other is wrong, a sinner, impure or pure.



I do not agree with installing ridiculous notions into our young girls heads, either. I think it is wrong to brain wash a girl or a boy into thinking that if they do have sex before they are married, that they are disgusting human beings. To me that is very wrong. I do agree, though, that children need to understand about protection and that being in a committed relationship is highly recommended, along with being mature and ready emotionally.



I just fail to see why a person must first be married. As a matter in fact, many people are refraining from marriage these days, they live together with monogamist beliefs but do not take that extra step. I think saying that you must wait until you are married is silly, since to me that is also forcing marriage. It is also saying that you are not allowed to be a complete woman/man until you are married and express your love to the one you are with until you sign papers and say vows. Not everyone wants to be married. It is best left up to the individual, without strings of negative accusations put upon them.



To me the best approach is to educate our children and explain that it is OK to wait but it isn't a requirement in order to be some being that is better than the rest, that have not waited.



ETA:

I believe adultery is wrong. Not so much a sin. It is, however, against every value and moral I have. I would not forgive my husband if he committed such a thing. For me, it has to do with trust. If there is no trust, there is no relationship.

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When exactly then do you say okay NOW we know eachother enought to commit? My version of what marriage should be is probably different then yours. I did not have to live with my husband ever to know we were going to work. I also never had to live with my friends and I know which ones I could or could not live with.

I do not believe a womens value in marriage has anything to do with her hymen intact or not. That would be silly, most of the point in abstinence has to do with emotional baggage that tends to come with not waiting. We can go around in circles I can't change my beliefs for you! I believe adultary is a sin, sorry if that is offensive to anyone. I am not really sure what you want me to do about it?

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Here Jen

"I guess, I just don't believe in marriage unless it is absolutely for sure, you have been together and lived together for a few years. How can you be and live with someone for years and not have that close sexual relationship with them? You would have to marry them soon after meeting them, like before moving in together.....no? I would disapprove of this for sure."

This shows that some do not believe in waiting. Meme I am not trying to pick on you I am just saying that it has been said here that waiting is not fully supported.

Are you saying I cannot believe in sin because you don't? or that I just can't say it in public? I am confused and I am not being sarcastic.

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If a person believes that having sex before or outside of marriage is sin then can we call it sinning? Everyone sins.... And if this is not part of your belief system then why would you care if I say it is a sin. I am not hypocritical and saying all those who cohabitate are evil sinners and I am some sort of righteous human being, I sin just as much as the next person and acknowledge it daily.

I think the whole purity movement is a bunch of parents trying to teach their children about abstinence, not how to discriminate against other peoples beliefs. Perhaps the message needs to be clarified?
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I find being called a sinner insulting. Because I do not believe that sin is possible. I believe we can do bad things but sins are not the same. Because the sin of looking on someone with lust us just as bad as screwing your friend's husband and that's thoughtcrime, not real crime. So calling me a sinner is akin to me calling you a whore. If you're not a prosititute, why would you be offended?

Because the concept is insulting to you.

And I do disagree with the message being sent in 'purity' movements. I've read enough about enough movements to form that opinion. It's overwhelmingly taught to girls because a female's worth is in her hymen for marriage.

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So its not okay for me to want my children to wait because it is part of my morals and values?
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Show me where ANYONE suggested that.

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Do you know alot about your close friends? You don't need to live with someone to know if they are compatible or not
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I simply do not agree. I only know a lot about friends that I've been friends with for over a decade and even then, I'll never know quite what they're like until I live with them. My best friend is one of 39 years. I only realized last year that I would not want to live with her.

Other friends, no clue. I'd have to live with them first to see if I could tolerate marriage.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/10/2012

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Johnny---Is there some reason why referring to it as maintaining virginity or choosing to wait would not suffice?



Funny you said this. I was just thinking the exact same thing. I came back from making lunches, to write this very thing. ;)

Johnny - posted on 04/10/2012

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"So its not okay for me to want my children to wait because it is part of my morals and values? If our morals and values are different then it would follow that the stuff we do could be considered immoral by another person, then what? I comprimise my integrity because you want me to approve of your actions?



What you chose to do does not affect me or my beliefs. Perhaps there is a word besides pure that would be more exceptable to you?"






Le sigh. Michele, of course it's okay for you to want your children to wait and to follow the morals and beliefs that your family holds. It's more than okay. If it is what is right for them, then it is the best thing for them. If it jives with your morality, then it would wrong to chose to do otherwise. No one is asking for you to compromise your integrity or change the way you raise your children.



But yes, I do expect for you not to judge my actions or those of anyone else based upon the standards you set for yourself. I do not judge you or anyone else based on my standards for me and my family. If you are doing the best thing for you and your family by your beliefs and morals, then I approve. I don't need for other people to live according to my beliefs to make them right for me.



However, words hold power. Referring to other people's lifestyle decisions as impure is rude and disrespectful. When the term purity is used to describe waiting for marriage, then it immediately indicates that not waiting is impure (synonyms: contaminated, corrupt, debased, defiled, desecrated, diluted, dirty, doctored, filthy, foul). Obviously that is deeply offensive to those that choose not to follow that lifestyle. Is there some reason why referring to it as maintaining virginity or choosing to wait would not suffice?

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Meme I know we tend not to agree in general but I am happy that we can have different ideas and beliefs and still have a civil conversation. Seems like everyone is always on the attack and that debate means scream at people, I just think that alot of it is people being unclear



I am always delighted when someone is in a marriage that is working, I studied it in college because family is so important to me, seeing as I did not have much of one growing up!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/10/2012

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Perhaps for me, actually I know for me, my beliefs come directly from my upbringing. Having gone through 2 divorces and 3 marriages with my Mother, it installed not only fear but serious caution.



So, I do agree that some people can have a wonderful marriage even if they had not lived together first. I am just hesitant, since I have had bad relationships. Where, if I had married them, I would be a divorcee right now.



Where I spent 6 months dating my husband before we moved in together, we were older (30) and had already experienced terrible relationships. We decided at 6 months we would buy a house and see how we lived together. 5.5 years later, it had proven we were meant to be together. So we married. Now it has been 6.5 years and it is wonderful. So, honestly, if I had taken a step with blind faith and married him before moving in together, it would not have made a difference.



In heinsight we could've married and everything would still be just as perfect. I just had no way to ensure that, so for me it was best to test the water's (so to speak), first. I also have a 13.5 year old daughter (she was 7 when we met). I had to make sure if it turned into a disaster, she was not stuck either, like I had felt when I was a little girl.



A good friend of mine just got married. He is East Indian and of buddhism religion. He left for 6 weeks to go home (India) and came back married. It was an arranged marriage, one he had no clue about, until his Mom announced it when he was there. He is excited. I am very happy for him. He has had premarital sex, though, his wife has not. He has also been subjected to some crazy Canadian women in his 10 years he has been here. lol Nothing that his wife would ever be. Hopefully, his expectations are not too high (or low?)..... ;)



It is cute to find all those neat little fun quirks about them though, isn't it. Mine is much better at yard work than I. ;)

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I learn new stuff all the time but we had all the basics, childrearing, finances and housekeeping stuff figured out. Moving in earlier would not have made our marriage any better then it is now. I now know he sings while showering and cooking ;) and that he is much better at laundry then I am but is completely incapable of organizing. Not anything that is a deal breaker...

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I actually would never use the word pure even when talking to my children or friends. It seem archaic even to me. My kids are too little for this anyhow. We mostly just explain that mommies and daddies get married and have babies... Since my oldest is 4.



I have many amazing friends who did not wait and/or lived with their spouses. I don't think it reflects on your love for your children or parenting capabilities. I was just responding to the question. I do not equate wanting my children to wait until marriage with adding shame to sex. I do not believe that this should be directed at girls and not at boys. I also think that I share this with many other parents who have similar beliefs.



If a person believes that having sex before or outside of marriage is sin then can we call it sinning? Everyone sins.... And if this is not part of your belief system then why would you care if I say it is a sin. I am not hypocritical and saying all those who cohabitate are evil sinners and I am some sort of righteous human being, I sin just as much as the next person and acknowledge it daily.



I think the whole purity movement is a bunch of parents trying to teach their children about abstinence, not how to discriminate against other peoples beliefs. Perhaps the message needs to be clarified?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/10/2012

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No, I think if your belief system employs teaching your children to wait for marriage it is absolutely OK. There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever. Just don't judge others that have different values and morals. Since, most woman here - even when we have different views - are wonderful Mom's. We all want what is best for our children. We just don't all agree with how that is to be done from a teaching/guiding practice, for us and our children. ;)



You are not wrong to believe in what you do. We are not wrong to believe in what we do. Perhaps, leaving the word "pure" out altogether, is best when speaking outside of your circle of friends? Since not everyone believes that if you're not pure, you have sinned and are therefore contaminated (not all of us have religious beliefs).



ETA:

I did not know before my husband and I moved in together how terrible he was with his finances. I did not know how he would be raising children. I did not know his every single quirk. We were together a while before we moved in together. I learnt a lot about him once we moved in together. Are you saying that you have not learnt anything new, since you have lived with your husband?



My parents too were divorced. Then my Mom remarrid and divorced again. Now she is remarried again. 3 marriages. She has now been with this man for 18 years. Maybe it will last. You know what though? They lived together for 13 years first, they just got married 5 years ago. ;)



Like I said, it all depends on the person and what they believe BUT also what they have experienced. ;)

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Meme, my husband and I have been together for almost 7 years, married for almost 5. I moved in the day we got married. I also knew all the stuff you listed. We are completely compatible and I know that when we said until death do us part, we meant it. I am well aware of how serious marriage is and lived through the divorce of my own parents, so I have seen it go wrong. My husband and I would not be any better off then we are had I moved in here any earlier.



What you did, was what you needed to do. I didn't agree with your comment, my kids will not be taught the same as yours regarding sex and marriage because I believe differently then you. It has been said here that people are not against waiting. It seems to me that you are against waiting, because you say that not cohabitating is illadvised. Maybe I misunderstood your point of view.

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So its not okay for me to want my children to wait because it is part of my morals and values? If our morals and values are different then it would follow that the stuff we do could be considered immoral by another person, then what? I comprimise my integrity because you want me to approve of your actions?



What you chose to do does not affect me or my beliefs. Perhaps there is a word besides pure that would be more exceptable to you?

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