Religion & Hypocrisy

Jodi - posted on 09/27/2009 ( 51 moms have responded )

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I know this may end up baing a hot topic, but I know everyone here is incredibly open :)



I personally was raised Protestant, but my husband, and now both my children are Catholic. However, we get to church maybe 4 or 5 times a year, so we have beliefs, but we are not fanatical about them.



This recent case about the mother who was implanted with the wrong embryo (see the thread, I'll post it when I save this and find it, LOL) it turns out the implanted mother was Catholic. The Catholic faith's position on abortion is that "A human being comes into existence at the moment of fertilization of an oocyte (ovum) by a sperm."



However, on the flip side, the family was undergoing IVF in order to have a baby, and the Catholic Church's position on this is "the Catholic Church condemns as gravely evil acts, both IVF in and of itself, and stem cell research performed on IVF embryos."



Over the years, I have encountered many religious hypocrisies, I could spell out many more here. This particular one was just one that came to mind when I read the article.



Thoughts? Not just on this particular issue. Do you believe sometimes people use religion to justify certain actions, but are quite happy to disregard it when it serves their purposes?

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~Jennifer - posted on 09/28/2009

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Alright...here we go....



In my opinion, anyone that uses their religion as an excuse for allowing or disallowing anything concerning another human being is a hypocrite.

Religion, whatever denomination a person follows, is supposed to be about you, your god(s), your personal relationship with the god(s) and what you believe to be the interpretation of the values you have discovered through your personal relationship with your god(s).

Not everyone is going to have the same personal relationship - it's impossible. The phrase 'personal relationship' means just that -PERSONAL - as in "between you and", but the mistake that is made is when an individual uses their private experiences / interpretations and projects them onto another individual.

Whatever you deem your god(s) to be, whatever you deem the instructions that you receive from your relationship with your god(s) to be, is what is appropriate for you alone. To use your own personal relationship with your god(s) to determine what is right for another individual is impossible.

Put it in the theory of a 'family' unit. Do you have the same relationship with your father that your sister has, or are there differences? Does your father's advice to your brother apply to you as well, or does your brother receive different advice than you do? Does everyone in your family do exactly what your parents want you to do? Do you love them any less if they don't? Do your parents love you any less if you don't heed their advice? Do you ostracize a member of your family because they interpret an event, a story etc. differently than you? Has your family ever been told something and each person has their own interpretations of what was said? Did the family love each other any less for it?

Well, why would a god love someone any less for any of the same reasons?

This was the easiest simplest way I can think of to describe the act of using your own PERSONAL relationship, your own interpretation of it to influence or affect another individual.

The only thing that a person can honestly maintain in regard to their religion / beliefs is that your god(s) will make known to you what is the right thing for you, and you alone. A person can tell the story of their relationship with their god(s) to another, possibly in the hope of helping someone find what they believe to be the greatest, most positive influence in their lives......but they will not develop the exact same relationship. Your god(s) may have a message for you that doesn't apply to another individual's situation, and may speak to that other individual in a way that THEY can understand and deliver a message that is right for that person, but not necessarily right for you. Who is to say that god(s) are not speaking to them? Who is to say that you got the 'right' message, and they misinterpreted theirs?

Who are any of us to assume that what had been deemed acceptable in your 'personal' relationship - acceptable for your own mind and beliefs, that is, is the same message that another person has received? Is it so hard to believe that god(s) would speak to each individual in the manner which they would understand, and in a manner that coincides with their own personal existence?

I believe that anyone that inflicts / pushes their personal values gleaned from their relationship with god(s) onto another person - values which should pertain to 'you' and 'you' alone - values / beliefs that they have discovered through their interpretation of their own sense of religion could be considered a hypocrite.

If it's a personal relationship, it only applies to you, *personally*.

?? - posted on 09/28/2009

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YOU in this post is not directed at any single person - it is YOU in a general sense not a personal sense so if you take offense to me saying YOU in this - it must be you on a deeper level and it's your own personal conflict that is making you feel offended - not my words. Just wanted to start off on a clarifying note there so that no one gets their knickers in a knot and interpreting shit to mean something personal when it's a completely general post.





Why would you want to believe in something that makes you try and conform someone else to your thinking? If you believe in something like that......... I think you are a complete hypocrite to believe in... free will... or freedom, period.



It's hypocritical to say 'I believe my religion wants me to push my beliefs on you... and you should listen because my relationship with God is what is right and proper' then reject anyone else's beliefs because they're not yours.



I think that if you believe in something that says it's ok to push your beliefs onto someone else - you are hypocritical to turn around and say "It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it." You can't be entitled to something (like an opinion/view/belief) if EVERYONE else isn't entitled to their own as well. You lose that privilege when you try to decide for someone else what they are entitled to.



If you can honestly say that you think ANYONE has any right to push their beliefs/opinions/views on anyone and those people are RIGHT to expect EVERYONE to accept/conform/believe in those opinions/beliefs/views - you are a complete hypocrite if you turn around and want any sort of freedom for anything - free will - choice - anything that isn't a decision that is made for you by someone else.



If you expect any other single person to conform to your beliefs, views, opinions, lifestyle, idea of the norm, thoughts of what is proper - you are a hypocrite if you are unwilling to do the same.







There is a difference between discussing your personal experiences, sharing your story and peddling your business. I think there is a huge problem in religion when they feel they have to peddle their beliefs door to door, table to table. A lot of religious people say "It's my JOB to spread the word of God." Well, if it's your JOB to peddle the bible - I think you're on a great start to disrespecting the TRUE meaning behind the bible. Religious people say that organized religion isn't a corporation, it's not a business - it's a personal relationship with your savior. So... keep it that way - stop peddling the bible and pimping Christ on every corner. I think anyone who tries to PUSH their beliefs is a self-serving, arrogant, conniving, hypocritical douche bag that needs to be smacked over the head with something heavier than the bible.

Evelyn - posted on 09/28/2009

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Jenn, sorry but that makes no sense. You said, "I believe hypocrisy enters religion when the believer can not keep their personal relationships with their God(s) personal and PRIVATE - in ANY religion".

Maybe I missed something, but how on earth is witnessing your faith to someone hypocritical? Either they agree or they don't, case closed. What you said doesn't even even come close to hypocrisy.

~Jennifer - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Christa:

You are talking about people pushing their beliefs on others. If one's beliefs are to convert others then they are being true to their beliefs and are NOT a hypocrite. Now if their religious beliefs are live and let live and THEN they try and push them on someone, THEN they are being a hypocrite. If they say they have a personal relationship but also believe that their God(s) want a personal relationship with everyone to share a universal message then it’s not hypocritical to try and get others to equally believe, because that's what your God(s) would want you to do.


 ('you / your' does not mean "Christa" - it simply means 'anyone')



No, I said that it's fine to make suggestions, to share 'YOUR' story, but not to DECIDE for others. 



to paraphrase:  Just because someone wants to be a virgin when they get married doesn't give them the right to strap chastity belts on anyone else to MAKE them stay that way too.   



 



If "you" believe that something is wrong, it's still only  'YOUR' belief, a realization that 'you' personally have come to - a realization to which you hold yourself and only yourself.  It doesn't mean that just because you think it's 'this way' that it SHOULD be that way for EVERYONE.  It's fine for"you" and that's what makes a person an individual - their own belief of what is right or wrong for THEMSELVES.  (and how they come to that decision of what is right and wrong)



 To truly have a personal relationship between yourself and your god - the true definition of that theory- is what is between 'you & god' stays between 'you and god'.  If 'you & god ' decide that "x" is right for 'YOU' and "y" is wrong for 'you', then that's that.  It doesn't mean that "y" isn't right for someone else and it definitely doesn't mean that god's relationship to someone else's life is the same as 'yours'.....it's impossible for 2 people to have the exact same relationship with god.



I think that hypocrisy comes into play when people try to make the interpretation of their PERSONAL relationship with their god(s) into  a public requirement for all.   To say "this is the message I have gotten from my relationship with god, and you should have gotten the same message too......"    "My message was right, but you missed the point"   "God told me this and I know I heard it correctly so 'you' can't be right in what you heard"?



....doesn't that sound a bit elitist?



How do 'you' know?  Or do 'you' just assume that 'since this is what "I" believe,  "I" have the right to affect other's lives because of it"  



No one can say whether the message they receive from their god(s) is the same language, text, or theory as someone else received.  They can only say that the message they received was right for themselves, and themselves alone.  



(Now, I'll be personal about it:)



As far as "live and let live".....I do subscribe to that theory.   I've not EVER pushed my belief on anyone, I've never quoted my books to make a point, and I've never told anyone about the 'punishments' that await them for doing "__________".     I do not try to convert the masses, simply because it's not necessary.  If (a) god wants to make themself known to an individual, they will.  If the person chooses to hear that god, they will.  If a god has the power that most believe a god to have, well, they don't need me to find them followers.  If someone WANTS to learn what I know, I will teach them.  If they ask, I answer.  If they don't, then I say nothing.   I am one of the people that know that 'mine' doesn't need to be the same as 'yours' for me to do what's right for myself, and do that which  "harms none"  but me.  That is my 'definition' of 'personal'.  I don't see how something can be personal if it affects someone else negatively.

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Honestly, I think a good number of religious people don't actually look to their religion to decide what is right and wrong. I think they already know what they feel is right or wrong based on their culture and experience, and look to religion for justification. That's why two different people can look at the Bible or Koran or whatever, and come to completely contradictory moral stances. I don't know that there is anything particularly wrong with this. I think this cognitive dissonance is just a part of human nature. I know I have beliefs that are not self-consistent, and I'm not even religious.

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Louise - posted on 09/30/2009

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I have not read any of the other posts as of yet.. but to be completely honest i think religion is used to justify alot. Now i have never been a religious person myself, but i fully respect the right of others to have their faith. I have been put off from religion by lots of thing, i feel religion is used to justify (just to name a few) discrimination, racism, war, hate against other religions, ignorance and also peoples personal predjudice against whoever or what ever that may be. I also feel like some people who choose to believe in god try to force their beliefes upon other, i have seen it in debating mums and other communities on COM.

I can't see how they can justify saying abortion is a sin etc etc then on the other hand condem couples who are unable to have children in the natural way, cause surely no matter how sperm meets egg is irrelevent, as that embryo is a life in their eyes as soon as conception happens. The baby is still grown within the mothers womb and born in the same way. So why does the fact that the egg and sperm needed a little help to get started matter? It shouldn't if you ask me...

Charlie - posted on 09/30/2009

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OK

This really gets my goat !

" spare the rod , spoil the child "

IT IS NOT A BIBLE QUOTE , it was first written Aelfric's Homilies, circa 1000:
"Se ye sparas his gyrde, he hatas his cild."

Then re written by John Skelton's Magnyfycence, a goodly interlude and a mery, circa 1520: "There is nothynge that more dyspleaseth God Than from theyr chyldren to spare the rod Of correccyon."

The coiner of the version that we use in everyday speech was Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, the satirical poem on the factions involved in the English Civil War.

It was the ADDED to the the Bible and is first listed in John Coverdale's 1535 "updated" version , in Proverbs:

"He that spareth the rodde, hateth his sonne."


Wonder what else has been " updated " ?

Charlie - posted on 09/30/2009

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This quote fits this thread perfectly and fits my thoughts on the subject .

George Bernard Shaw said, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says. He is always convinced that it says what he means."

Yes i believe people use all religion for their own purposes weather it's to better themselves as a person , guide them through life , start a war , "smack " a child , demean women each person interprets their "bible " their own way or perhaps follow devoutly whatever their leader ( minister , priest ect.)say's is the "truth ".

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2009

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No worries Christa, it was just your reference to "after reading through the post". I figured by "the" you were referring to a particular post :) I didn't take it personally, was trying to understand why you may have thought "the post" was putting down someone's faith, because I simply couldn't see it.

Christa - posted on 09/30/2009

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Quoting Jodi:



Quoting Christa:

After reading through the post, I actually feel this post has some hypocrisy in it itself. First of all, I don't think it is the "job" of any religious person to convince someone to join their way of thinking. When you approach someone about your "faith" or "religion" or whatever you want to call it......it should be in the manner of sharing your belief. If they are responsive then so be it. But if not, you can't shove it down their throat....that would be the first step to hypocrisy. Another that I noticed here is.....putting down other religous groups that YOU don't agree with. We aren't all going to believe the same way; if we did we wouldn't be having this conversation. Just because I may believe a little different then you (meaning any one of you) doesn't make me right and you wrong. I believe the Bible is subject to interpretation. When we read it....our prayer should be to hear the message we need for OUR life. That could be a bit different for each and every one of us. We have all been through different struggles in our lives and we all need something different to get us through each day. Therefore the message we receive from our Pastor, Deacon, Prophet, Priest, Lay Minister, etc (I apoligize for missing anyone's church leader's name) will touch us each in different ways. As for not being perfect, thank Adam and Eve for that, I believe there isn't a Christian among us who obeys all the rules of their faith. That is the one thing that makes us equal....the desire to always try to be a better person than we were yesterday.





 



br />Christa, I am making the assumption that you are referring to my posts??






 






Can I ask where the heck I put anyone down for their beliefs?  Or where I was shoving something down someone's throat?  I couldn't give a shit what they believe and choose to do, it is entirely their choice.  I am actually totally pro-choice personally.  No-one is perfect, but I just find it ironic that someone can be pro IVF and anti abortion.  Kind of like people can be pro-choice and anti-circumcision.  Many of the arguments are the same, but they are arguing different sides of the same argument in each of the two difference circumstances.





 





Actually I wasn't referring to any ONE person. If I am going to respond directly to someone, I will use the quote that they said in my response so that it would make sense. I was being very general in my response #1 beause there were a couple posts targeting a religion and #2 it was my response to this thread how makes makes "religious people" hypocrites. Please don't take it personally.....as we have posted before......this is a debate forum....not a personal attack forum.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2009

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Quoting Christa:

After reading through the post, I actually feel this post has some hypocrisy in it itself. First of all, I don't think it is the "job" of any religious person to convince someone to join their way of thinking. When you approach someone about your "faith" or "religion" or whatever you want to call it......it should be in the manner of sharing your belief. If they are responsive then so be it. But if not, you can't shove it down their throat....that would be the first step to hypocrisy. Another that I noticed here is.....putting down other religous groups that YOU don't agree with. We aren't all going to believe the same way; if we did we wouldn't be having this conversation. Just because I may believe a little different then you (meaning any one of you) doesn't make me right and you wrong. I believe the Bible is subject to interpretation. When we read it....our prayer should be to hear the message we need for OUR life. That could be a bit different for each and every one of us. We have all been through different struggles in our lives and we all need something different to get us through each day. Therefore the message we receive from our Pastor, Deacon, Prophet, Priest, Lay Minister, etc (I apoligize for missing anyone's church leader's name) will touch us each in different ways. As for not being perfect, thank Adam and Eve for that, I believe there isn't a Christian among us who obeys all the rules of their faith. That is the one thing that makes us equal....the desire to always try to be a better person than we were yesterday.



Christa, I am making the assumption that you are referring to my posts??



 



Can I ask where the heck I put anyone down for their beliefs?  Or where I was shoving something down someone's throat?  I couldn't give a shit what they believe and choose to do, it is entirely their choice.  I am actually totally pro-choice personally.  No-one is perfect, but I just find it ironic that someone can be pro IVF and anti abortion.  Kind of like people can be pro-choice and anti-circumcision.  Many of the arguments are the same, but they are arguing different sides of the same argument in each of the two difference circumstances.

Jodi - posted on 09/30/2009

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Quoting Christa:

Quoting Jodi...

No-one follows the bible in the same way because the Bible is open to interpretation, end every demonination interprets it differently. I'll be honest, having attended Catholic Mass in a few different Parishes, they even sing the Lord's Prayer in a different way in each Parish and I get confused when I go somewhere different.

I am not saying it didn't happen....I am seriously asking this question. How did they say the Lord's Prayer different? As a Catholic who has been to ALOT of different churches, I have never heard it any different way.


 



The Lord's Prayer itself is not different, it is just sung differently, and some churches add additional flourishes to it, that's all, nothing major. The Gloria can also be sung slightly differently. While the basic procedures for Eucharist are the same, there are small procedures that are different. Each priest has his own way of performing his Mass, and even provides his own anecdote after the readings to relate to the bible, that's all I was getting at.

[deleted account]

Quoting Christa:









Quoting Diana:





 I consider it all to be organized religion. It's not just one denomination who believes that Christ is the only way into eternal salvation-they all do. Denominations bicker about how to interpret certain parts of the Bible, and about how to best carry out the mission that God set before them, but they are all of the same religion with the same cornerstone of belief. There are different factions of Mormons, Muslims, and Jews-yet we refer to them in coversation as "Mormon," "Muslim," or "Jewish" rather than by specific faction-this is what I mean-Christianity in the broader term, including all denominations, because no denomination is any less Christian than the other (except maybe according to one another...lol).















You are obviously free to view them as you want.  The point I was trying to convey is that Christian is the least specific grouping.  In the way that bears, dogs, cats and humans are all mammals.  None of us are less of a mammal then the other, but you can not call a cat a dog just because they are both mammals. (not the best analogy, but I can't think of a better one right now lol)    While you are right all those denominations believe in Jesus there ARE reasons why people associate with one denomination or the other.  There are "rules" one follows that the other doesn't.   You can't judge a Catholic’s actions against the Methodist "rules" or visa versa.  Just as I am a non-denominational Christian so you can't judge my actions off what the Catholic church says and call me a hypocrite when I go against the Catholic Church.  I am not a Catholic.






 






 






I get what you're saying-I do. I just think that Christianity at large can be referred to in the same way that we refer to other religions at large. Certain Muslim sects, for instance, believe that a conractual marriage between two (otherwise single) people allows them to have sex and enjoy the benefits of marriage without the legal aspect-and they can either set a date on which to terminate the "marriage" or just terminate it when they please. That is that particular sect's way of getting around the "no dating" part of the religion. Other sects absoultely do not agree with this pratice, and consider it as sinful as dating and having sex outside of marriage-they don't recognize these contractual marriages. (I swear I'm not making this up-I have a friend who was in one of these contractual marriages at one point.) So that's a pretty big discrepancy, and it's just one right off the top of my head, so there are others, but a lot of times we refer to Muslims at large. So that's kind of what I mean-just that in the same way we can lump those people together (and the same way that often the sects who believe in jihad are lumped in with the peaceful sects of the religion) then we can lump Christians together, because although the interpretation differs, the cornerstone is still the same. (Sorry-I didn't mean to hijack the thread.)



Edit: Upon re-reading this I feel that I should clarify that what I am *not* trying to say is that all factions of Christians, or Muslims, or any other religion are the same. To use your analogy, the overall religion would be the genus, mammal, and the sect would be the species, cat or dog. So certain things can be said about the general, while others have to be said about the specific. (All mammals have hair; all Christians believe that Christ is the Son of God who died for the sins of humanity; versus cats eat rats; Southern Baptists believe that women should not be ordained as ministers.) Sorry-didn't want to confuse the issue further.

Christa - posted on 09/29/2009

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Quoting Evelyn:

I don't really think it matters which denomination you belong to. I believe that as long as you have accepted Jesus as your savior, you can make up a denomination for all I care. I was raised conservative Baptist, and while I still feel most comfortable in a Baptist church, I don't consider myself "Baptist" anymore. I'm more like Christa in this sense..I'm non-denominational.

Jenny, you basically are repeating what Christa and I have been trying to convey. Christianity is a very broad term, because I don't think any Christian denomination would claim that another was doing it "wrong". Just differently. Perhaps you don't get it, but as a person of faith, it makes perfect sense to me.

Let me repeat what I've said previously...I am not so vain to believe that my way is the ONLY way. It is not for me to judge how God manifests himself to someone else, I am in no way condemning anyone to damnation lol. I'm just trying to help you ladies understand things my from vantage point...why I feel the way I do sometimes stems from my faith, sometimes it doesn't. I just don't see why it should be dismissed just because you don't happen to believe the same things I do.



I 100% agree with this!!

Christa - posted on 09/29/2009

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Quoting Jodi...



No-one follows the bible in the same way because the Bible is open to interpretation, end every demonination interprets it differently. I'll be honest, having attended Catholic Mass in a few different Parishes, they even sing the Lord's Prayer in a different way in each Parish and I get confused when I go somewhere different.



I am not saying it didn't happen....I am seriously asking this question. How did they say the Lord's Prayer different? As a Catholic who has been to ALOT of different churches, I have never heard it any different way.

Christa - posted on 09/29/2009

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After reading through the post, I actually feel this post has some hypocrisy in it itself. First of all, I don't think it is the "job" of any religious person to convince someone to join their way of thinking. When you approach someone about your "faith" or "religion" or whatever you want to call it......it should be in the manner of sharing your belief. If they are responsive then so be it. But if not, you can't shove it down their throat....that would be the first step to hypocrisy. Another that I noticed here is.....putting down other religous groups that YOU don't agree with. We aren't all going to believe the same way; if we did we wouldn't be having this conversation. Just because I may believe a little different then you (meaning any one of you) doesn't make me right and you wrong. I believe the Bible is subject to interpretation. When we read it....our prayer should be to hear the message we need for OUR life. That could be a bit different for each and every one of us. We have all been through different struggles in our lives and we all need something different to get us through each day. Therefore the message we receive from our Pastor, Deacon, Prophet, Priest, Lay Minister, etc (I apoligize for missing anyone's church leader's name) will touch us each in different ways. As for not being perfect, thank Adam and Eve for that, I believe there isn't a Christian among us who obeys all the rules of their faith. That is the one thing that makes us equal....the desire to always try to be a better person than we were yesterday.

Jodi - posted on 09/29/2009

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Quoting Jenny:

So is only one denomination following the bible properly or all of them? Who has the correct translation? Why the huge discrepancies? Which one is doing it right? Cause it really can't be all of them, can it? Who's rules are what Jesus meant?



No-one follows the bible in the same way because the Bible is open to interpretation, end every demonination interprets it differently.  I'll be honest, having attended Catholic Mass in a few different Parishes, they even sing the Lord's Prayer in a different way in each Parish and I get confused when I go somewhere different.



Having said that, the Bible is also the creation of Man, and not only that, it is an interpretation of the Apostles by the Church itself in around the year 1,000AD. 



A bit like the game Chinese Whispers??  It was interpreted in 1,000AD, then I am sure it has been rewritten many times since then, we now have the modern Good News Bible, all along interpreted by the priests or equivalent of the time .....I wonder what the original actually said???



I am not trying to diminish the value of the Bible, but I am saying that we have to really consider the interpretation carefully.   There is not right or wrong, there is only belief.



About my opening post, I have a problem with the hypocrisy because they both cover the same issue - how can you reject abortion on the basis of the Catholic faith, due to the sanctity of life and God's "perfect timing" (and will) and yet also approve of IVF?  I do understand this is a couple that are probably trying to reconcile their beliefs (and I absolutely admired them for their decision).  I just find it a little hypocritical on what is essentially a single issue within the teachings of the Catholic CHurch.



 



BTW, this is not about the Catholic religion only, it is about any organised religion.  All of them have these issues in some way (like the cults that claim to be Christian but where the men are allowed to have 20 wives if they choose). It's all about interpretation, but interpretation can be hypocritical.

Evelyn - posted on 09/29/2009

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I don't really think it matters which denomination you belong to. I believe that as long as you have accepted Jesus as your savior, you can make up a denomination for all I care. I was raised conservative Baptist, and while I still feel most comfortable in a Baptist church, I don't consider myself "Baptist" anymore. I'm more like Christa in this sense..I'm non-denominational.



Jenny, you basically are repeating what Christa and I have been trying to convey. Christianity is a very broad term, because I don't think any Christian denomination would claim that another was doing it "wrong". Just differently. Perhaps you don't get it, but as a person of faith, it makes perfect sense to me.



Let me repeat what I've said previously...I am not so vain to believe that my way is the ONLY way. It is not for me to judge how God manifests himself to someone else, I am in no way condemning anyone to damnation lol. I'm just trying to help you ladies understand things my from vantage point...why I feel the way I do sometimes stems from my faith, sometimes it doesn't. I just don't see why it should be dismissed just because you don't happen to believe the same things I do.

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

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So is only one denomination following the bible properly or all of them? Who has the correct translation? Why the huge discrepancies? Which one is doing it right? Cause it really can't be all of them, can it? Who's rules are what Jesus meant?

~Jennifer - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Jenifer:



Quoting Jo:

...I'm not talking about those 'drive-by' religion reminders....





Sorry - off topic - but I was amused when I read this sentence, because I actually was drive-by witnessed to recently. My husband and I were out walking, and a car sped by us, stopped, backed up, and a women yelled out the window to ask if we knew Jesus and to offer us some pamphlets. Seriosuly, who does something like that? I guess I must really look like a heathen or something.






if you look like a 'heathen'.........



....their car probably would have melted when they pulled up next to me.



=P

[deleted account]

Quoting Jo:

...I'm not talking about those 'drive-by' religion reminders....


Sorry - off topic - but I was amused when I read this sentence, because I actually was drive-by witnessed to recently. My husband and I were out walking, and a car sped by us, stopped, backed up, and a women yelled out the window to ask if we knew Jesus and to offer us some pamphlets. Seriosuly, who does something like that? I guess I must really look like a heathen or something.

?? - posted on 09/28/2009

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Evelyn - you said that the lady gave you the pamphlet and walked off - that doesn't bug me. It never has - I don't even get upset when people come to my door and ask to talk to me about their religion. I politely say no thanks and wish them a good day. It's the nice thing to do. It's polite. It's the decent thing to do. I've had people approach me and give me pamphlets, I either take it and say thanks or say no thank you and carry on. It's not a big deal to me at all.



I'm not talking about those 'drive-by' religion reminders - I'm talking about the people that Christa mentioned - the people whose belief it is to PUSH their religion and the people who are continually forcing their religion on people. The people who figure "GOD SAID SO" is the RIGHT reason for ANYTHING to be implemented and forced upon an whole group of people (ex: The USA). The people who expect everyone to convert, who expect everyone to conform to the "Christian" way. The people who are completely hypocritical in saying they want all of the respect in the world by every single person - by them converting and conforming - when they can't even respect someone who says "No thanks, I don't believe in god."









Jeannette, I think I would like 1 Fish 2 Fish Red Fish Blue Fish to be the next book that comes into play! hehehe



I agree with you 100% that we can all be hypocrites. It's a human trait we all have to accept at one point or another. It's parallel to lying. We're all liars at one point or another about one thing or another. It doesn't make us BAD people (well some situations it makes you a naughty person - but shit happens!).



It only becomes extremely serious when it's in excess. When we're lying to be conniving (instead of lying to save feelings for example) and when we're being hypocritical to force something onto people who are unwilling to just bow down (instead of hypocritical to teach a lesson in life - don't do drugs from someone who has done drugs, for example).



(not addressing anyone in particular here)



It's unnecessary and I think the whole idea of trying to force your beliefs on someone - whatever the belief may be and whoever that someone may be - if you are trying to force your belief on an unreceptive person you're wasting your time and trivializing your faith, religion, opinion, view, idea, whatever. I wanna emphasize too that I think there is a difference between discussing and debating vs pushing and forcing.



To me, if you have to lower yourself to be rude, pushy, and end with "you'll go to hell" or anything along those lines - you're doing your faith an injustice. You're undermining your own faith, you're losing the point with yourself, and it comes off to me that you've lost control of your "personal" relationship with God and you are REACHING, BEGGING, NEEDING someone else to belief to justify your own faith.



No one NEEDS me to believe in god for their relationship with god to be real and it really really really bugs me that people throw away decency, common sense, general moral standards by being rude, ignorant, mean and low people to push their beliefs -- only to turn around and claim that those moral standards, that they just threw aside to shove their beliefs down my throat, are the reason that abortion is bad, that gay marriage is wrong, and numerous other stances they have for whatever is wrong in the world.

[deleted account]

Quoting Evelyn:



Quoting Diana:




Quoting Christa:

Laura you are incorrect. Christianity in the purest since is not organized religion. What I mean by that is I don't do what "the church" tells me to. There isn't some "head human" telling me how to interpret the bible and how to live my life. I have a relationship with Jesus and he helps me interpret the word of God. Organized religions have some Pope, Prophet, Bishop etc telling them how to interpret their particular religion. When I sin I don't go ask a human for forgiveness and do hail Mary’s, I don't go kill myself because some human told me it's what Allah wants, etc. That is what I mean when I say I don't belong to organized religion.








Wait, so Catholics aren't Christian?








If you go to church, you have church leaders, right? How are they different than Catholic or Muslim leaders?








Christianity is very organized. The relationships between husband and wife, between father and family, between preacher and congregation should be earthly models for the relationship of God the Father to God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure how much more organized that can be.








(Please be aware that I'm not being accusative-I'm honestly asking, because your logic in this paragraph does not make sense to me and I want to understand where you're coming from.)








There are alaways contradictions in religion-which is one reason I don't participate in any sort of religion. I don't agree with going and sitting among people and acting as though I believe the same though do while secretly hating some of the things they believe. I find that, for me, it's better to believe in a Creator that I have my own, very personal relationship with and on one else is involved with-not Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Jews, or anyone else-this way I get to avoid the hypocrisy of belonging to a group that I don't agree with.









I guess this means that every single person that belongs to a political party in this country is a hypocrite then? Because using that logic, either you have to believe and agree with EVERYTHING or you're a hypocrite. Do you see how that makes no sense? Like I said at the beginning of the thread, just because I don't agree with every single thing that the Christian faith stands for, does NOT make me a hypocrite. The same way that I'm a liberal and I don't agree with EVERY single thing my party does.






Makes perfect sense to me, as it's exactly why I refuse to affiliate myself with one political party or another. So no, I don't see how it doesn't make sense. By my definition, and per my personal beliefs about what hypocrisy means, it's hypocritical to claim to belong to something but disagree with much of that something's platform. And for the record, I never actually said you had to agree with every single thing, every single time something is said-it's just that I've not found a religion (or political party) that I agree with more than half of, and it would be hypocritical of me to claim to belong to that religion (or party) if I disagree with a majority what it has to say, or if I disagree with something that is a cornerstone of that faith.



I'll illustrate. I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin. I don't believe that there is only one way to heaven. I don't believe that a god who is as wonderful as all that needs me to be his recruitment officer. I believe in using every measure possible to prevent the conception of a child if one is not wanted, so as to avoid either an abortion or another child in the foster care system, and I believe in using every available option if a couple wants a child and cannot have one. I believe that life-saving measures such as chemotherapy and blood transfusions are a testament to life being sacred, not a corruption of the body. I don't believe we can know what happens after death until we die, and I don't want to speculate about it, because life is short enough and I just want to enjoy it. That just cut me out of several religions for several different (and very big) reasons, among them Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Islam. I won't sit in a church of any of those religions and pretend to believe anything other than what I believe-because I feel that doing so would make me a hypocrit.



If someone else believes differently than me then that is fine-and we all have our right to belong to whatever faith we want. But I grew up in a devout Methodist family, and I no longer go to church because when I left home and had some new and different experiences, I realized that I no longer believe what the church says I should-and so I decided I'd rather try and find something else than go to church and pretend to ascribe to something that I don't believe. I have yet to find that something else. Maybe it exists, maybe not. But until I find a religion that I agree with at least the majority of, and a place in which I don't spend most of my time cringing at what is said, I won't say that I'm of a part of any religion.

[deleted account]

Quoting Christa:



Quoting Diana:




Quoting Christa:

Laura you are incorrect. Christianity in the purest since is not organized religion. What I mean by that is I don't do what "the church" tells me to. There isn't some "head human" telling me how to interpret the bible and how to live my life. I have a relationship with Jesus and he helps me interpret the word of God. Organized religions have some Pope, Prophet, Bishop etc telling them how to interpret their particular religion. When I sin I don't go ask a human for forgiveness and do hail Mary’s, I don't go kill myself because some human told me it's what Allah wants, etc. That is what I mean when I say I don't belong to organized religion.








Wait, so Catholics aren't Christian? I never said that, I said I am a non-denominational Christian.  That is what I'm discussing.



I know you never said that directly-it was just the wording. You said Christianity wasn't organized but then used Catholicism of something that was organized, so I wondered what you meant.




If you go to church, you have church leaders, right? How are they different than Catholic or Muslim leaders? They are not, but I am not relying on them to tell me how I am supposed to feel or believe  Church for me is about felloeship with others and self reflection. 



I guess I can get that. For me, I just feel hypocritical if I claim to belong to a church or a religion but don't disagree with large portions of what they say (I say large portions because I doubt anyone agrees with 100% of what any other person says.)




Christianity is very organized. The relationships between husband and wife, between father and family, between preacher and congregation should be earthly models for the relationship of God the Father to God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure how much more organized that can be.








(Please be aware that I'm not being accusative-I'm honestly asking, because your logic in this paragraph does not make sense to me and I want to understand where you're coming from.)








There are alaways contradictions in religion-which is one reason I don't participate in any sort of religion. I don't agree with going and sitting among people and acting as though I believe the same though do while secretly hating some of the things they believe. I find that, for me, it's better to believe in a Creator that I have my own, very personal relationship with and on one else is involved with-not Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Jews, or anyone else-this way I get to avoid the hypocrisy of belonging to a group that I don't agree with.  That is sort of what I'm saying, although I do call myself a Christian because I believe Jesus to be the savior and the words of the bible to be true.  However that doesn't mean I believe or agree with every other person who says they are a Christian.  Also by not associating with a particular church or denomination I avoid being linked to some of the hypocrisies.  I guess I view "organized religion" like the Catholics, for example.  If you say you are a Catholic, you usually subscribe to the Church and it's teachings and hold the Pope in a high regard.  If the Pope says something then it must be so to many Catholics.  I view the Pope as just a man.  As is every other religious leader.



 



Many people identify as a Christian.  I think it's a very broad term that many have their own definition for.  That's why it's important to clarify what is meant when a person says they are a Christian.  Catholics, Mormons, Lutherans, Methodist, etc all call themselves Christians but they also have other "rules" that their specific denomination adds or interprets from the bible.  I am non-denominational meaning I take the bible as God's word and I interpret it myself, I don't rely on a human to tell me how it should be.  The point of church/fellowship for me is to discuss it and then decide for myself if that is how the bible was meant to be interpreted.  Does that make any sense?  That is how I don't consider myself a part of organized religion, though some of you may disagree. 






 I consider it all to be organized religion. It's not just one denomination who believes that Christ is the only way into eternal salvation-they all do. Denominations bicker about how to interpret certain parts of the Bible, and about how to best carry out the mission that God set before them, but they are all of the same religion with the same cornerstone of belief. There are different factions of Mormons, Muslims, and Jews-yet we refer to them in coversation as "Mormon," "Muslim," or "Jewish" rather than by specific faction-this is what I mean-Christianity in the broader term, including all denominations, because no denomination is any less Christian than the other (except maybe according to one another...lol).









 





 

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

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I've just read through all the posts...I hope I have not "pushed" my beliefs on anyone..I hope I have been accepting...okay, I falter, but most of the time, I hope I have been accepting.

Jeannette - posted on 09/28/2009

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absolutely...as I have been finding more and more evidence to prove this in other posts in other topics!

We can all be hypocrits...we are human...to legislate complete and utter hyporcrisy based on a Bible that one is not necessarily following to the tee...and to legislate based on this book for people who have no belief system...and to legislate based on this book - what happens if another book comes into play?

?? - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Evelyn:

you seem to harbor a bit of anger towards Christians...maybe I'm wrong, but that's the vibe I'm getting.





Not at Christians. At religion in general. Annoyance of mass stupidity, masses of otherwise nice, smart, friendly people dropping any and all decency for another persons human rights - the same rights, respect and decency those people DEMAND all for something that that person doesn't wanna hear.



If someone is gonna get offended, mad, up in arms saying that I shouldn't reject their beliefs, that I should accept their beliefs as my own -- cause I don't want, don't need and have the right to reject - they are a complete hypocrite.



Like I said, I have had many conversations with people who have their beliefs, I give them respect and I listen respectfully, I ask questions, I learn, I appreciate their input, I respect their ideas, their views, their beliefs and every single time it's been a 1 sided conversation. As soon as I say "I don't believe." My opinion has no value. My thoughts have no value. There are no questions asked, there are not thoughtful inquiries, there is absolutely nothing BUT preaching. I don't get the same respect back. If I were to converse the same way they conversed with me the conversation would be nothing more than 2-3 sentences. And both people walking off in a huff.



Quoting Evelyn:

I just don't see why people get so upset especially over people of faith. So what if they witness to you? So what if they are stubborn? I'm sure you've tried to convince people of this or that at some point in your lives right? If you don't agree, just say so and keep it moving.




It's just plain annoyance of being dismissed because I don't believe in god by people who do believe in god and it's their JOB to spread the word of god and because I'm not buying what they're selling they still expect me to listen to their sales pitch quietly, respectfully, calmly, patiently and then say "thank you for teaching to me it was invaluable time spent" cause if I don't then I'm a rudie tudie that has no respect for life and it's me that is the hypocrite and it's me that is dismissing their right to free speech and it's me being disrespectful and mean and trying to undermine the value of the bible and god and everything else you could possibly think of. BUT it's absolutely NOTHING for someone who is religious to brush me off simply cause I don't believe in god.



Your religious belief and you wanting to share the word of god or whatever - spread gods love - peddle your bible doesn't give you the right to be an indecent human being. Since when was being rude the right way to get any sort of message across? Why would someone who is "trying to do Gods will" by spreading the word of God want to be rude and pushy and ignorant of people's feelings? It doesn't exactly put a positive light on that religion or the bible or that person in general. People that are pushy and rude and try to shove GODS LOVE down my throat are doing the complete opposite of what they are "supposed to be doing!!!" They're turning people off instead of bring people in.



It's pretty much the same thing as faithism. It's a hypocrisy. I don't believe in god but HOW DARE I say that, what a disrespectful shrew I am for dismissing religion and rejecting religious beliefs. Even though I'm more prone to respecting religious people and their preaching than they are even remotely going to even fathom the idea of respecting me for not being religious.



I hope this all makes sense - I'm typing with 1 hand while my son is cuddled up in the other arm lol

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

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"That is sort of what I'm saying, although I do call myself a Christian because I believe Jesus to be the savior and the words of the bible to be true. "



The bible is the word of man, not the word of god. If it was the word of god there would have been nothing lost in translation because she would have seen that coming.

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

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The majority of Christians, or any religion, that I know are like you. They are reasonable people with a strong belief in their religion...the problem is (not that I'm speaking for Jo) that so many seem to believe that they have the right to change the laws of the land to suit them and to tell people who disagree that they are doomed to burn in hell.

I am well aware that they are not the majority, but man, they are LOUD :P

Evelyn - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Jo:

Sharing your experiences and talking about your life and explaining why you think your beliefs is completely different than pushing your beliefs, expecting people to conform and becoming offended when someone rejects them.

I think wanting people to accept your opinion and RESPECT your opinion is also completely different then wanting people to conform to your opinion and choose your opinion as the one true right proper opinion as their own.

I would love for people to ACCEPT my opinion - I try to accept everyone's opinion as their own - the second that they decide that my opinion isn't worth the same respect though - F U.

I can discuss for days on end different aspects of other people's views and beliefs and I will openly ask questions, learn, and accept it as their own opinions. I have yet to experience that same respect from someone who is religious (outside of my family and even then it's always ended with them telling me in 1 way or another that my life is not RIGHT and will never be, because I don't believe in God.)

They want me to listen, respect, and convert/conform - but refuse to do the same for me. I don't even want them to convert, conform, stop believing, any of that junk I would just like to have the same respect given to me when I am speaking that I give them when they are speaking.

I think THAT is what is hypocritical.


I get what you're saying, and as you know from my previous post...I am definitely not one of those "pushy" Christians...lol. I do share my beliefs with anyone who asks or if the moment presents itself, and like I said before, either you agree or you don't . No skin off my back. I have a feeling you have run into some pretty pushy people Jo, lol...you seem to harbor a bit of anger towards Christians...maybe I'm wrong, but that's the vibe I'm getting.



I just don't let it get to me. Just like the other day, I'm shopping in the store and this lady walks up to me and asks me what language I speak...so I'm like huh? She's like...can I give you a pamphlet? So I said sure...she gave me a Jehovah's Witness pamphlet in spanish and told me to read through it and if I was interested that I could give her a call. I said thanks and I walked away. I know it is a part of her religion to reach out and witness to people, so why would I be offended if she does so? I don't have to agree with her, I just move on with my life.



I just don't see why people get so upset especially over people of faith. So what if they witness to you? So what if they are stubborn? I'm sure you've tried to convince people of this or that at some point in your lives right? If you don't agree, just say so  and keep it moving.



 

[deleted account]

Ah, I get what your saying now, Jo - and I definitely agree. I think you put it a lot better than I could.

?? - posted on 09/28/2009

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Sharing your experiences and talking about your life and explaining why you think your beliefs is completely different than pushing your beliefs, expecting people to conform and becoming offended when someone rejects them.



I think wanting people to accept your opinion and RESPECT your opinion is also completely different then wanting people to conform to your opinion and choose your opinion as the one true right proper opinion as their own.



I would love for people to ACCEPT my opinion - I try to accept everyone's opinion as their own - the second that they decide that my opinion isn't worth the same respect though - F U.



I can discuss for days on end different aspects of other people's views and beliefs and I will openly ask questions, learn, and accept it as their own opinions. I have yet to experience that same respect from someone who is religious (outside of my family and even then it's always ended with them telling me in 1 way or another that my life is not RIGHT and will never be, because I don't believe in God.)



They want me to listen, respect, and convert/conform - but refuse to do the same for me. I don't even want them to convert, conform, stop believing, any of that junk I would just like to have the same respect given to me when I am speaking that I give them when they are speaking.



I think THAT is what is hypocritical.

[deleted account]

Quoting Jo:

If you can honestly say that you think ANYONE has any right to push their beliefs/opinions/views on anyone and those people are RIGHT to expect EVERYONE to accept/conform/believe in those opinions/beliefs/views - you are a complete hypocrite if you turn around and want any sort of freedom for anything - free will - choice - anything that isn't a decision that is made for you by someone else.


Actually, I do think everyone has the right to try to convince me that their beliefs/opinions/views are correct. But I am under no obligation to listen or care. I'd call that freedom of speech, and it isn't something I want to mess with. And while I don't force my beliefs on people, I certainly would like everyone to accept some of my opinions - like those on gay rights, universal healthcare, etc. I don't like witnessing - I find it annoying and rude - but to call it hypocracy stretches the definition so far that it becomes meaningless.

~Jennifer - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Evelyn:

Jenn, sorry but that makes no sense. You said, "I believe hypocrisy enters religion when the believer can not keep their personal relationships with their God(s) personal and PRIVATE - in ANY religion".

Maybe I missed something, but how on earth is witnessing your faith to someone hypocritical? Either they agree or they don't, case closed. What you said doesn't even even come close to hypocrisy.



If you have something that you CLAIM to be personal "My personal relationship" for example, then take that personal / private relationship and make it common public knowledge, it's no longer personal.  The SPLIT SECOND after you make it public, and then declare your 'personal relationship" again - it becomes hypocrisy.



Can you explain to me how something private and personal can be made public knowledge / public statement, yet still remain private and personal?

Evelyn - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Diana:



Quoting Christa:

Laura you are incorrect. Christianity in the purest since is not organized religion. What I mean by that is I don't do what "the church" tells me to. There isn't some "head human" telling me how to interpret the bible and how to live my life. I have a relationship with Jesus and he helps me interpret the word of God. Organized religions have some Pope, Prophet, Bishop etc telling them how to interpret their particular religion. When I sin I don't go ask a human for forgiveness and do hail Mary’s, I don't go kill myself because some human told me it's what Allah wants, etc. That is what I mean when I say I don't belong to organized religion.






Wait, so Catholics aren't Christian?






If you go to church, you have church leaders, right? How are they different than Catholic or Muslim leaders?






Christianity is very organized. The relationships between husband and wife, between father and family, between preacher and congregation should be earthly models for the relationship of God the Father to God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure how much more organized that can be.






(Please be aware that I'm not being accusative-I'm honestly asking, because your logic in this paragraph does not make sense to me and I want to understand where you're coming from.)






There are alaways contradictions in religion-which is one reason I don't participate in any sort of religion. I don't agree with going and sitting among people and acting as though I believe the same though do while secretly hating some of the things they believe. I find that, for me, it's better to believe in a Creator that I have my own, very personal relationship with and on one else is involved with-not Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Jews, or anyone else-this way I get to avoid the hypocrisy of belonging to a group that I don't agree with.





I guess this means that every single person that belongs to a political party in this country is a hypocrite then? Because using that logic, either you have to believe and agree with EVERYTHING or you're a hypocrite. Do you see how that makes no sense? Like I said at the beginning of the thread, just because I don't agree with every single thing that the Christian faith stands for, does NOT make me a hypocrite. The same way that I'm a liberal and I don't agree with EVERY single thing my party does.

[deleted account]

Quoting Evelyn:

Jenn, sorry but that makes no sense. You said, "I believe hypocrisy enters religion when the believer can not keep their personal relationships with their God(s) personal and PRIVATE - in ANY religion".

Maybe I missed something, but how on earth is witnessing your faith to someone hypocritical? Either they agree or they don't, case closed. What you said doesn't even even come close to hypocrisy.


I'm with Evelyn on this. While I may object to proselyzing, I don't see how it, in particular, in hypocritical - in particular when your talking about a religion that encourages witnessing. Certainly this would be the case for Christianity and Islam, and likely other religions as well. And I think people can be hypocritical in their beliefs even when they do keep their beliefs private.

[deleted account]

Quoting Christa:

Laura you are incorrect. Christianity in the purest since is not organized religion. What I mean by that is I don't do what "the church" tells me to. There isn't some "head human" telling me how to interpret the bible and how to live my life. I have a relationship with Jesus and he helps me interpret the word of God. Organized religions have some Pope, Prophet, Bishop etc telling them how to interpret their particular religion. When I sin I don't go ask a human for forgiveness and do hail Mary’s, I don't go kill myself because some human told me it's what Allah wants, etc. That is what I mean when I say I don't belong to organized religion.



Wait, so Catholics aren't Christian?



If you go to church, you have church leaders, right? How are they different than Catholic or Muslim leaders?



Christianity is very organized. The relationships between husband and wife, between father and family, between preacher and congregation should be earthly models for the relationship of God the Father to God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure how much more organized that can be.



(Please be aware that I'm not being accusative-I'm honestly asking, because your logic in this paragraph does not make sense to me and I want to understand where you're coming from.)



There are alaways contradictions in religion-which is one reason I don't participate in any sort of religion. I don't agree with going and sitting among people and acting as though I believe the same though do while secretly hating some of the things they believe. I find that, for me, it's better to believe in a Creator that I have my own, very personal relationship with and on one else is involved with-not Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Jews, or anyone else-this way I get to avoid the hypocrisy of belonging to a group that I don't agree with.

~Jennifer - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Christa:

Jenn, I completely see what you are saying but I don't think it relates to the original post. I'm not discussing whether it is right or wrong to push your beliefs, I'm simply stating that if your belief IS to push them onto others then it is NOT hypocritical when you do.



Well, I gave my opinion on hypocrisy within religion in general. 



 Had I gone strictly along the lines of the original post, I feel that I would have been commenting about the multitude of contradictions in the bible again, as the OP used "Catholics" for an example.  I do not wish to get into that again, nor do I wish to base my comments simply on the contradictions of christianity since the thread is titled "RELIGION and hypocrisy" not "Christianity & hypocrisy" or "Catholics & Hypocrisy"



I state again:  I believe that hypocrisy enters religion when the believer can not keep their personal relationships with their god(s) personal and PRIVATE - in ANY religion.



 

Jenny - posted on 09/28/2009

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Then I guess the question begging to be asked is is it your belief to convert others to your way of thinking?

~Jennifer - posted on 09/28/2009

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Quoting Christa:

If a father has 4 daughters and he wants all of them to stay a virgin until they are married, he will have a different relationship with each of them and a different way of conveying that message, but in the end the message is the same for them all. Some may not receive that message, that doesn't mean he love's them any less, it just means they didn't follow his message and maybe he has to change his approach for the next message. If one sister tries to help another sister who is in the process of doing the opposite of what their father’s message is, is she a hypocrite?



No, she's (we'll call her daughter A) not a hypocrite to what SHE believes is right- but she can only believe it is right for herself.  Suggestions made by (A)  to   sister (daughter B) are fine,  if she(B) is willing to hear them.  She (B) may not feel that the message is suited to her own personal life, that they may not be 'right' for her (B).    If she's(B) not willing to hear those suggestions, then the message still remains the same to the first sister(A), and will reflect in her(A) personal decision to remain virginal.



....but the 'chaste' sister(A)  also has NO RIGHT AT ALL  to strap a chastity belt on the other one because she(A)  THINKS she(A) knows best due to  her personal  interpretation of the message in her 'father's' request, or because she is convinced that she(A)  is somehow superior and decides she is going to make other sister's(B) decision for her - simply because she believes that what is right for her (A) MUST be right for someone else. 



(....and that's when personal interpretations become hypocrisy - when 'you' say something is 'personal' and apply that stigma,- 'your' own personal interpretation-  of right and wrong to someone else's life......it's no longer personal - it's intrusive. )



 



 

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

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The bible itself is a human thread between you and your god. I may have been wrong about church but I thought the bible said something about worship in the house of god...sorry if I was wrong about that.

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

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The bible itself is a human thread between you and your god...but I'll admit that I may have been wrong about the church thing...sorry

Sara - posted on 09/28/2009

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I think that depends on your denomination, whether or not you are "required" to go to church. The Quaker church I attended growing up didn't say that you had to go to church at all...

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

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In fact, I think that as Christians, you are required to go to church and worship...just another example of ignoring the rules that are inconvenient...If you believe the church is corrupt, that's because it is...and it started a LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG time ago

Isobel - posted on 09/28/2009

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First of all Christianity is an organized religion...whether you go into a specific church or not doesn't matter. You pick and choose the parts of the religion that are not in conflict with your personal beliefs and ignore the parts that don't... or are inconvenient. (by you I mean religious people in general)

You are right though, people are not perfect. I don't subscribe to any particular religion (I have one of my very own that I know to be true), and I'm still a sinner. No matter how I try, perfection is just not an option...When I die I know that I will have lived a good life, that I was a good person, and never hurt anyone or anything if it could have been avoidable.

Sara - posted on 09/28/2009

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I think that Mary makes an excellent point. I think to some extent people do pick and chose what ideals they want to believe in when it comes to religion. I consider myself to be Christian, but I don't believe everything that another Christian might. But, I unwaveringly believe what I do believe in and not just pick it up when it suits my purposes. The only real hypocrisy I see is when you see those preachers on TV talking about damnation and hellfire for the gays/heathens/sinners...and then get caught snorting meth off a gay prostitutes ass. But, when you paint yourself into a Godly corner like some of those men have, you're bound to fail. Everyone sins. I just find it funny that what those people tend to be most vocal against, turns out to be usually what they get in trouble for...Ted Haggard.

ME - posted on 09/28/2009

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I think there is the possibility for internal inconsistencies in any personal belief system. I think, like some of the other women here, that I am a good Catholic, despite hating their stance on Abortion and gay marriage. I find their stance WRONG. I think it goes against what God would truly want for people. Jesus preached love and acceptance of all people, not just the people with whom we feel most comfortable. I don't think that Catholic doctors should be forced to perform abortions any more than I think Catholic Priests should be forced to perform gay marriages, but I don't see how that translates into making either illegal...



I never thought I wanted children UNTIL I accidentally got pregnant with my son. This has helped me to understand why people would go through IVF, even if they aren't completely sure that it is morally ok to do. However, I think it is very important to recognize internal inconsistencies in one's personal belief system, and to decide whether you can legitimately continue to hold two opposing beliefs. For example, there was a time, long ago, when I ate meat...I realized that I couldn't continue to do so since I could never kill an animal myself...Socrates said "the unexamined life is not worth living"; I tend to agree with that. I continually examine my personal beliefs, feelings and ideals to make sure that I feel really comfortable with the way I am living, and the way I am treating myself as well as the rest of creation.

[deleted account]

What I'm about to say proberbly has nothing to do with the subject of this thread but I remember reading this story about a year ago of this guy who was in his early to mid 20's attended a religious school etc masturbation is a big no no but one day he decided to donate his sperm to couples who cannot concieve.

So this guy went through with the donation, got payed for his services, and decided to take his parents out for dinner and was going to tell them about the gift he gave. He was too nervous to tell his parents because he knew he would be looked down upon due to his religion.



This subject is close to my heart, reason being that I was concieved this way. I am by no means religious but Impo (in my personal opinion) I don't think people should give up trying for a child naturally (now don't get me wrong, there is absolutley nothing wron with adoption- I was adopted) and feel its a part of "Gods plan" for one to not be able to have a child naturally.



The thread you're talking about, is that the one where one of the mother's ended up terminating the pregnancy and it was another mums embryo that was inside her and it just happened to be that it was the last embryo she had left?

Konda - posted on 09/27/2009

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I too am Catholic, does that mean I believe in every single thing the Church does, nope....sure don't. I stopped giving money to the Church when they started paying off family and kids that were molested instead of just having the sick bastards arrested....where else do you get molested and get a $50K check? Only from the Catholic Church. The priests should be in prison just like any other pedophile.

I have a hard time with confession also...I think I should have a straight line to God, not need someone else to 'help'. Then again, I do ask Mary to pray for us...so I suppose there is hypocrisy there.

I am also for birth control...though I couldn't use 'the pill' because of health problems, I think the rhythm method is just stupid...you know what you call those that use the rhythm method???? Parents.

Also, I don't know how much Louisiana news anyone hears, but an IVF place screwed up a bunch of embryos and have no clue who which ones belong to.....now what? It is illegal in LA to destroy an embryo.

Evelyn - posted on 09/27/2009

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Sure people use religion to justify certain actions, just as others use other things for justification, but just because they disregarded the Catholic church's stance on IVF doesn't mean they are hypocrites. It might just mean that they happen to disagree with them. Just because someone is Catholic doesn't mean they agree with EVERY single thing the church does. I am a Christian, and I obviously don't believe EVERY single thing that all other Christians do. Although I do feel like Christianity is a little more blurred around the edges than the Catholic church...they are MUCH more regimented.



Some could call me a "relgious hypocrite" because I am not "against" homosexuality or certain reasons for abortion. That's fine, that's their opinion. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But only I know my heart and I'm not concerned what people think of me in that sense.

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