Shuold disabled be sterilised to stop pregnancy?

Tracey - posted on 02/16/2011 ( 199 moms have responded )

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/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357259/Mothers-court-appeal-sterilise-girl-21-learning-difficulties.html

The tearful mother of a pregnant woman with severe learning difficulties pleaded with a High Court judge yesterday for permission to have her forcibly sterilised.

The woman, known only as Mrs P, broke down as she explained the drastic procedure was the only way to spare her 21-year-old daughter the heartache of having further children and being forced to give them up for adoption.

The daughter, known as P, already has one young son and is due to give birth to a girl today by caesarian section.

She was described as ‘sexually healthy and active’ but unable either to exercise restraint, or fully to comprehend the consequences of her behaviour.

Her mother told the Court of Protection that while her family would support these two children, they could not cope with any more.

She said: ‘I want the best for my daughter. We want to keep the children together as a family unit. But obviously we can’t keep on supporting more and more children.

‘She doesn’t see anything wrong with her behaviour. She hasn’t got the capacity to realise about her actions. The problem is, if she has any more children we can’t make a commitment to bring them up. Any future children would be removed. She doesn’t understand that she won’t ever see those children again because she says, “I am their mummy”.

‘She doesn’t understand that they will get a new mummy. She thinks she will be able to see them at Christmas, birthdays and weekends.’

Campaigners have warned that the case – which could result in P’s fallopian tubes being sealed – could have a devastating impact on the human rights of the disabled.
Like a bereavement: Mr Justice Hedley said that Mrs P may not understand the full impact should any children be taken away from her

Like a bereavement: Mr Justice Hedley said that Mrs P may not understand the full impact should any children be taken away from her

They said sterilisation is too extreme a step to be carried out without consent and called for alternatives such as a long-term contraceptive to be considered instead.

But Mrs P told the court she had already tried – and failed – to persuade her daughter to have a long-term contraceptive injection at the family planning clinic. After initially agreeing, P refused to have the jab at the last minute and came out of the clinic carrying a bag of condoms which the court heard were ‘useless’ for her situation.

Mrs P said: ‘We need something done. She fell pregnant with her second child quite quickly and the thing that worries me is if something isn’t done she will be pregnant quite quickly again.’

Mrs P, who is not represented at the hearing, brought the case to the Court of Protection, sitting at London’s Royal Courts of Justice, because she believed sterilisation was in the best interest of her daughter.She said that with a boy and a girl her daughter would have ‘a complete family’ and that she could help bring them up together in the family home.

Her NHS Trust and local authority are also understood to support the application. But Official Solicitor Alastair Pitblado, representing P’s interests at the hearing, said expert evidence was not yet available for the court to rule whether she should be sterilised.

‘The issues raised by this application are extremely serious and important,’ he said. ‘A decision maker acting on behalf of P must always question if they can do something else that would interfere less with her rights.’

Adjourning the case until May, Mr Justice Hedley said P was a young woman who ‘by reason of a medical condition suffers from significant learning difficulties’. He said: ‘If she were to have a child which could not be cared for within the family there would almost certainly be an immediate intervention at birth and a permanent removal with a view to adoption outside the family.

‘P herself would understand that she had lost a child, but would not understand how final that loss might in fact be... It is easy sometimes to underestimate the impact of that kind of loss, which is as near to bereavement as is possible to get without an actual death.’

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~Jennifer - posted on 02/21/2011

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Jackie,

I see that you are a member of the community "Mothers of Special Needs Children"

I wonder....would you mind me linking your diatribe to the community over there and ask them to come to DM and weigh in on your opinion of children with 'non-functional / lame dog' [sic] disabilities?

What exactly is the nature of your lame dog...sorry, I mean "child's" disability, if I may ask?

[deleted account]

Jackie, by your logic, I'd have never had my son. Recovering crack addict here. 17 years clean. Thank the gods I wasn't sterilized by some sweeping law like you propose. No offense Jackie, but I sorta take offense to that. And I think so would my son, if he could understand what you're saying. So would every person who knows and loves him.

Krista - posted on 02/16/2011

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I do think teens should be sterilised. Because frankly I'm tired of my fucking tax dollars going to raise the next generation of trailer trash."



Um, Mike? Sterilization is permanent. So if all teens were sterilized, there wouldn't be ANY next generation, trashy or not.

Charlie - posted on 02/21/2011

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*VOMIT*

Yes it is hard to debate with failed logic that insists on purification of the human race based on an opinion formed around a serious lack of compassion and empathy and basic understanding of the human mind and body , it's funny that you question our mental capabilities when it is your clearly warped idea or definition of a persons capability to live that begs the question ? what exactly are your capabilities if you cannot understand simple abilities , definition of " brain dead " what kind of intelligent person uses " slang" as a reason for euthanasia ?

No one is trying to make you be quiet we are all stunned at the sheer inhumanity of your posts , they are equal to ideas set forward by the likes of people like Hitler, that isn't trying to attack you that is just the truth .

The beauty of being human is having emotion , feeling compassion the fact you don't even see the emotion or cruelty in your own posts shows a LOT , heck even some animals are capable of compassion and emotion , even people with disabilities are capable of emotion which makes me think .....perhaps they are more human than you .

Tara - posted on 02/16/2011

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Hmmm.... Jackie, if you child was born with autism or your child was born healthy but suffered head trauma resulting in enough brain damage to still function but would require support throughout life, would you have them "put to sleep?". To save yourself the money and time?
Honestly your opinion is highly Aryan in nature. It smacks of a superiority complex mixed with some extreme narcissism thrown in the mix.
I take it everyone you care about are perfect. And if you found out that someone you care about were actually battling an addiction to pain killers you would recommend they be put to sleep? Or at least sterilized? Hmmm.... I'm going to have to think on this for... oh no I didn't... that's whacked.

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Alyssa - posted on 02/21/2011

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Jackie
"""""My vision usually bothers other people who have never dealt with it more than it bothers me... you leave me guessing that you have never known anyone with a visual impairment. """""

And you leave me guessing you have never dealt with someone with a disability, if you have then I am even more disgusted in your attitude.

I can tell you now, this his how people with disabilities feel. It DOES NOT bother them how you feel. To them they are just like everyone else and many don't acknowledge that they actually have a disability. All they know is the world treats them a little different than everyone else. HOW ARE YOU ANY DIFFERENT. I wonder if you have the opinions you do because you feel that society dumps you into the same minority group as quote "Tards"....is this why you feel the need to belittle and dehuminise people with a disability? Because you feel you are one of that group and you need to prove to someone...or yourself that you are better?

Amie - posted on 02/21/2011

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*** MOD Alert ***

This thread has deteriorated into personal attacks, vilifying and flaming. It is too far gone to be saved, it is being locked.

Amie
~DM mod

Johnny - posted on 02/21/2011

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Well, I've seen a lot of disturbing things in my time here on COM, but Jackie's comments take the cake. Personally, I'd rather spend time with the "barn animals" she so derides rather than listen to such abhorrent, ignorant, and despicable ideas.

I've worked with addicts, the mentally ill and the mentally disabled. I was a social worker. I've also worked in child protection, and I can tell all of you that if we had a foster parent spouting off this kind of hate speech, suggesting the extermination of other humans, those kids would be gone from their care so fast their heads would spin. I would love LOVE to find a way to let them know that this Nazi is out there brainwashing the "rejects" of her state in to thinking that their parents are worthy of execution.

Honestly. This is making me ill. I'm really having a hard time believing that she's not a troll, but I suspect that is wishful thinking. I think in all likelihood, even some Nazis would have a hard time accepting her level of hate.

You may be an American honey, but I doubt anyone there is proud of having to share their country with the likes of you.

Nikkole - posted on 02/21/2011

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I agree with Marylea there is not enough information to judge this women and say what should be done with her!

Anyone who believes in killing disabled people who are a QUOTE "drain on society" is a MONSTER and has no heart! Jackie i seriously HOPE your children have no major desirability's later in life (god forbid) Because your solution would be to take them out back and get rid of them so they would not drain your pocket book or mess with your way of living because why should you have to take care of your child the rest of your life?? This is basically what you are saying what about all the other mothers out there who have severely disabled children and LOVE them with ALL there heart and soul, should they just kill them off because its costly to take care of these kids?? You are the ONLY person on COM i can say that makes me sick!

Stifler's - posted on 02/21/2011

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Yeah I would like to know what "learning difficulties" even means and how disabled she actually is. It sounds to me like it's pretty severe if she can't understand that her future offspring will be taken away and she won't see them again.

Marylea - posted on 02/21/2011

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I don't even know what to write. I've typed and retyped so many responses but in the end nothing I write conveys how I feel right now. There are no words to describe how truly disgusted I am with the things Jackie has said. So I am choosing to ignore the ignorant comments made by said person.

That being said, this article does not give enough information for an outside party to judge/determine the best course of action. There are a lot questions, for me anyway, that would have to be answered in order for me to decide what is best. It is unlikely that this woman will actually be forcibly sterilised. Regardless of mental capacity it is a breech of human rights to forcibly strelise someone and its a matter that should not and cannot be taken lightly.



The following is a side note to the above article on the daily mail website.



"Court applications for forced sterilisations are extremely rare.

The last case was heard eight years ago at the Family Courts, when a judge agreed that it was in the best interest of a woman with learning difficulties to have the procedure.

Three years earlier, Mr Justice Wall gave permission for a hysterectomy to be performed on a 29-year-old woman with learning difficulties.

However, his ruling was overturned by Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss, then head of the family division of the High Court.

She considered such surgery to be ‘premature’ and suggested the woman be fitted with an intra-uterine coil instead.

The Court of Protection was set up in 2007 to decide on medical treatments for individuals judged by psychiatrists to lack mental capacity."

User - posted on 02/21/2011

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How on earth did this family come to find themselves in this predicament? Maybe if she is a burden on her mother and can't abstain from sex or use contraceptives, she should move in with the guy she's been having sex with? Or perhaps she could find a better use of her time working as a Walmart greeter? If nothing else, maybe she could be sent away to a nunnery?

Surely there are options here. You can't force someone to use contraceptives or birth control, but if they're living under your roof you should have some say in what's going on.

Angela - posted on 02/21/2011

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"Angela, you managed to misspell also. I have a speech reader that reads the words exactly the way they are spelled. Do you want to know how I put on my pants also?"

ksjdbflsibghfbdfihvbdfp;vpvobfbdf;h bspd;vbp;f;vdfvnsodbfvbdvjbjv...CAN YOUR SPEECH READER READ THAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Krista - posted on 02/21/2011

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Wow, you're just keen on putting all SORTS of people to death, aren't you, Jackie? The severely disabled, those who are against the death penalty...who's next on your little "hit list", pray tell?

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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Angela, you managed to misspell also. I have a speech reader that reads the words exactly the way they are spelled. Do you want to know how I put on my pants also?

Krista
I am confused about what is truly evil... a man who rapes a child or a woman that thinks it is wrong to put that man to death because she thinks capital punishment is evil. IMO they are both evil and both should be put to death. You say tomawtoe and i say tomato

Charlie - posted on 02/21/2011

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I know what an addiction is thanks but an emotional problem within ones self doesn't negate the ability to have emotion and understanding towards other human beings .

Stifler's - posted on 02/21/2011

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I'd like to know what all this drug addict and genocide business has to do with the disabled being sterilised.

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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Loureen... addiction is the effect of a person with already emotional problems so if the addiction is supposedly cured doesnt mean the emotional problems are also corrected, they are a separate problem that also needs to be addressed.

Krista - posted on 02/21/2011

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I didnt say all flaws are considered reasons for death or restrictive reproduction...

Well, that's awfully big of you, isn't it?

If a person doesnt understand the consequences of assisted suicide, is it really all that bad?

Well, if you murder someone in their sleep, they're not aware of it, so hell, is that really all that bad?

YES, JACKIE, IT IS THAT BAD. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MURDERING THE SEVERELY DISABLED BECAUSE YOU FEEL THEY ARE A DRAIN ON SOCIETY.

Seriously, I don't know how to put it any more clearly than that.

Yeah, you've got a right to your opinion.

And I have the right to tell you that your opinion makes you sound utterly inhumane and downright evil.

See, we Canadians have freedom of speech too.

Jodi - posted on 02/21/2011

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And just for the record, Jackie, there is a difference between anger and disgust.

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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I didnt say all flaws are considered reasons for death or restrictive reproduction... a lot of people have disabilities that do not restrict their way of life (hardly) at all.

Angela... I think you are a very strange person and I answered your question once already. You are already making my life rough with your consistent misspellings, is English your second language? My vision usually bothers other people who have never dealt with it more than it bothers me... you leave me guessing that you have never known anyone with a visual impairment.

Charlie - posted on 02/21/2011

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and to say that addicts cannot have function emotionally on a human level past their " needs " just shows another layer of your ignorance .

Krista - posted on 02/21/2011

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Jackie, either you're a modern-day Jonathan Swift, in which case my hat is off to you, or you are genuinely suggesting that drug addicts be sterilized and the severely mentally disabled be murdered, in which case you may want to step back because I am about to throw up from the utter vileness that you are stating, and I'd hate to get barf on your shoes.

Stifler's - posted on 02/21/2011

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Jackie... drug addicts and the disabled are nothing alike. Disabled people are not disabled through any fault of their own.

Charlie - posted on 02/21/2011

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I wonder how the department of social services would find these views for potential foster carers ? Alarming I'm sure .

Angela - posted on 02/21/2011

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"Some people with disabilities are a lot like basic farm animals; they have a need to feed/drink, stay warm/shelter, breathe.. and some have a need to feel loved/companionship (however they think this emotional/physical basic need is met). Just because this sounds human doesnt make it human."

JACKIE,THATS A BASIC NEED FOR EVERYONE WHETHER YOUR DISABLED OR NOT!

[deleted account]

Not me, Jackie! I mentioned epilepsy because you came across to me, in your original post, as someone who wants no flaws at all!

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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"The beauty of being human is having emotion , feeling compassion..."
"heck even some animals are capable of compassion and emotion , even people with disabilities are capable of emotion..."

the subject lady of the discussion does not have emotion, compassion, etc except her own selfish desires (like most addicts). She does not want to prevent pregnancy but also does not want the responsibility of raising a child thus lacking any kind of human respect. Some people with disabilities are a lot like basic farm animals; they have a need to feed/drink, stay warm/shelter, breathe.. and some have a need to feel loved/companionship (however they think this emotional/physical basic need is met). Just because this sounds human doesnt make it human.

Angela - posted on 02/21/2011

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WOW Jackie,
For someone who has so many opinions and is so high and mighty,you surely cant hack being compared to disabled cause your visually impaired,well cause you set your profile to private.

Jodi - posted on 02/21/2011

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I'm just going back to the "holy fuck" response I had earlier. I think that says it all.

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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the rest of the world does not get to have an opinion... some countries are restricted on what a person can say, wear, do, etc... are you trying for sarcasm or sheer stupidity.

My purpose for mentioning my home country is there are no restrictions.

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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Epilepsy has absolutely nothing to do with mental incapacity or this debate. That disease does no inhibit your ability to think, rationalize, or act in a socially acceptable manner. With proper medication, epilepsy can usually be controlled. I am sorry but it sounds like you have a problem with it, not me.

Rosie - posted on 02/21/2011

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ahh, the i'm american so i can have an opinion line....does the rest of the world not get to have an opinion?lol! and i wonder why the rest of the world thinks were a bunch of arrogant assholes....

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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Seems to be a lot of anger over my opinions, seems several of you think it is your right to make me be quiet... does what I say have any affect over any of your lives? Yes I may think that some of your family members or even you, do not deserve the right to reproduce but nothing I say can change that. I am an American who has the right to express myself. I think a few of you do not have the mental capacity to debate without taking it personally, shown by your personal attacks.

There is a difference between special needs and a child/person/human who lacks the mental capabilities to live. I have several friends who have children that I think are a drain on society and their own enjoyment on life but I do not express those feelings to them. I am not cruel... my opinion is just that... my opinion.

I am a mother to two children, step mom to two children, and I foster children. My opinions on 'tards and "special needs" children are from life experiences. I despise parents who are addicts and use the foster system as their revolving door. I wish capital punishment was used on parents who abuse, neglect, or refuse their children. If a mentally challenged person cannot physically or mentally care for a child then she does NOT have the right to reproduce. To say that is HER human right to reproduce is cruel and unjust to the child.

Nothing is black or white when it comes to people, their emotions, or life in general. I wish people wouldnt be so sympathetic to the "dark" side of humanity, some people do NOT deserve a second chance. Population control is a good theory but putting one person in charge could prove to be too much power for one person BUT having too many in control would just lead to a failure in the system also. Putting "down"/killing those that can't contribute isn't such a bad thing if you take "emotion" out of it. Debating over babies/elderly who need care is not part of this debate... that is just being overly dramatic. Yes, a lot of you should be thankful I am not in charge of the world.

Tara - posted on 02/21/2011

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Or we could hop over to Moms of children with special needs and re-post the topic there. Or more precisely post about putting our special needs citizens to sleep.
Maybe that will shut her up or make her realize how barbaric she sounds.

Alyssa - posted on 02/21/2011

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Some food for thought. This shows you just how "entitled" people with disabilites are to have sexual relationships...

There are organisations in Australia who educate people with disabilites on relationships including sexual activity. These organisations have the capacity to help people access paid, legal, prostitution services to fulfill their sexual needs at the clients request. There are prostitutes who specialise in providing services to people with disabilities including physical and intellectual disabilites.

Not to say that all people with disabilities access these services but if it is their choice then this is an option.

~Jennifer - posted on 02/21/2011

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...well, I guess we'll have to wait another week for a response to that question.

....I have time.
=)

Charlie - posted on 02/21/2011

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She is functioning being in care doesn't mean she isn't , just because you couldn't handle a special needs child ( or adult ) doesn't mean the rest of the population who have them in care cannot either , it doesn't mean there aren't strong , caring , willing people who are able to give them the best life they can and it certainly doesn't mean they should be " put down " like dogs .

I cannot express the disgust I feel over reading your opinions on this , your lack of understanding , logic and compassion is frightening , your ability to pull definitions out of thin air then use it as reasoning to kill is astounding to say the least , i know who I would rather be among the human race ....the disabled .

Angela - posted on 02/21/2011

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"She is NOT functioning if she needs 24/7 care."

No one said shes not functioning,Jackie.
She just cant coonect that having babies=sex...

Newborns,infants and children need 24/7 care and there functioning!

Jodi - posted on 02/21/2011

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So....my great grandmother, who was extremely elderly (let's just say she was 102 when she passed away) ended up needing to go into a home when she was in her late 90s because she *needed* 24/7 care. That's right. She was still a functioning adult, and quite healthy, but she DID need a lot of care because physically, many of her bodily functions were failing, and her daughter could no longer care for her. She still enjoyed the life she had left, but just needed care.

She was brain dead by your definition.

She was still alive and functional in many ways by my definition.

If she were your mother, you would have put her to sleep.

She wasn't your mother, so she was put into a home where 24/7 care was available to her, but where she could still enjoy the company of other people, she still gained something from life, and was loved and loved us in return.

[deleted account]

I'm glad it makes you chuckle when you think about what drug my daughter will be addicted to. You're sick.

Johnny - posted on 02/21/2011

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So requiring care negates the value of a person's existence. So, when you get older, as soon as you are unable to handle your own care without assistance, I assume you will go jump off a bridge to spare everyone the trouble?

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

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She is NOT functioning if she needs 24/7 care.

"Well, Jackie -- I guess Roxanne is doomed to a life of addiction. I wonder what her drug of choice will be."
The second line is the humorous part... I didnt write it, I just chuckled at it.

I still function... if I could not care for my children or needed constant care, I would hope somene would be kind enough to put me to sleep.

Charlie - posted on 02/21/2011

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Wow your opinion defies logic ...seriously , you want to euthanize people based on some slang term ( which also doesn't define this girl )

You are disturbing your very logic would put you in the " brain dead " ( in slang of course ) category would it not ?

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