Spankin'!!

Kate CP - posted on 06/18/2011 ( 61 moms have responded )

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Heard about this on the news last night and decided to post it. This is a blog-type article but it seemed the most complete I could find.

"Woman Loses Custody of Kids After Spanking Her 2-Year-Old
POSTED BY MEREDITH CARROLL ON JUNE 18TH, 2011 AT 10:16 AM
It seems that spanking used to be more common (and acceptable) than it is today

For some reason, I don’t exactly equate spanking with child abuse. I had plenty of friends who got spanked or had their punishments meted out with belts when we were kids. I’m not condoning either one, and yet I never thought of them as abused kids, per say.

That being said, I’d never spank (or hit or beat or whip or grab or pinch or smack or slap) my kids. I think if you hit a kid in anger, the kid in turn learns to hit in anger. And while I find it hard to stand in judgment of how other parents choose to discipline their kids, I can’t imagine what toddlers can do that’s so terrible that a parent feels that laying a hand on them will really make it better. Furthermore, it breaks my heart to think of a kid my daughter’s age or younger being punished in a physical fashion.

A judge in Texas seems to feels the same way, having issued a “stern warning” to a mom who admitted to spanking her 2-year-old daughter.

Judge Jose Longoria scolded Rosalina Gonzales for spanking her 2-year-old daughter, saying it was something that belonged “in the old days.” Gonzales has lost custody of her three kids and was sentenced to five years probation in Corpus Christi. She must also attend a parenting course.

Back in December, Gonzales’ daughter was taken to the hospital by her paternal grandmother after she noticed red marks on the girl’s bottom. A belt wasn’t used and there was no bruising.

Prosecutors deemed it a “pretty simple, straightforward spanking case.”

Judge Longoria, however, said it was unacceptable behavior.

“You don’t spank children today,” he said. “In the old days, maybe we got spanked, but there was a different quarrel. You don’t spank children.”

Gonzales is fighting to get her kids back, but the judge said until she’s deemed capable, they’ll live with their grandmother.

While spanking isn’t officially illegal in Texas, the state’s attorney general’s website says: “The state law allows the use of force, but not deadly force, against a child by the child’s parent, guardian, or other person who is acting in loco parentis . . . Most parents do, in fact, use corporal punishment at least occasionally, and most do not, in fact, consider it abusive.”

I don’t know if other factors contributed to Gonzales losing custody of her kids, although it seems to have just been the spanking from what I can gather. I don’t think spanking is OK, but I’m not sure why it’s so different today from when I was a kid and spanking was more a matter of course for plenty of parents."

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[deleted account]

Obviously we're coming at this from different angles, but I just cannot wrap my head around why anyone here is so vehemently defending this mother. Is EVERYONE wrong? The Judge, the grandmother, the CPS worker, other witnesses.....hell, even the mother plead guilty but for some crazy reason some of you are hellbent to uncover some secret conspiracy.

Here's a thought. Maybe she plead guilty because she's actually guilty, and maybe everyone else did their jobs. For crying out loud.

Sarah - posted on 06/20/2011

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I agree with Amie, of you're spanking your 2 year old hard enough to leave red marks all over their bum......then things need to be looked into. If that unearths more problems......then hell yes the child should be removed.

Amie - posted on 06/20/2011

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I do think there is more to this story. I can not see children's services removing a child for a first offense such as this unless the marks were severe. There probably is more to this story but it probably will not be published in full, to protect the children.

As for the grandparent, well I've had mine take my son in to emerg. They answered questions on whether or not they thought our son was being abused. He had broken his leg twice in less than 3 months. They had to do a report. Children's services were called, interviews were done, inspections, etc. We were found to have a good home free from abuse. We carried on our way. They CAN tell the difference between a good home and an abusive home. It's what they do.

I'm sure their are some who are a little gung ho about it but those are few and far between. I don't agree with spanking, I do not spank my children. If you leave marks on your child, you deserve to lose them if the reviews and inspections show you should. They most likely found something we are not privy too.

Dana - posted on 06/19/2011

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I don't think a Judge = good decision every time either but, the fact is, there were marks left on this child. This woman also pled guilty after working out a deal with prosecution, which to me shows more to this story.

You don't pled guilty after working out a deal unless something was seriously amiss.

[deleted account]

There has to be more to the story than that this woman lost her kids for spanking. For a judge to have done something so drastic, there has to be either other offenses or something else going on. If it IS a first offense, then sorry girls, I don’t agree that she should lose her kids. I am all on board with her (or ANY parent) taking parenting classes, anger management classes, whatever helps make her (and us) better moms. But I just honestly don’t think taking her kids away for a first offense is acceptable. Many of US wouldn’t have our children in that case. Some of you can say proudly that you’ve never spanked your kids and I think that’s great, I really do. But if I go by some of the statements here, then I should have lost custody of my son a long time ago because I used to spank him and I’ve left marks on him before. Some of you know that several months ago, I stopped spanking my son. I stopped because it wasn’t having the effect I wanted; he wasn’t learning anything. Also, and for me, most importantly, I felt like because of my history of child abuse (from my childhood), combined with my temper, I was headed down a slippery slope and I very easily could have crossed the line into abuse.
I think it just kinda floors me to hear that so many of you that I love and respect, think it’s ok to take a child from a parent because she spanked him/her. If it was excessive? Yes. If it was a situation where she’d had multiple CPS reports and investigations for abuse? Yes. But based on the facts they’ve given us, if it’s a first “offense”, then no, I fully don’t agree with her losing her children.

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Dana - posted on 06/20/2011

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That's understandable, Toni!

But, yes, she got 5 yrs probation, parenting classes and her kids were removed to the grandmother while it's being investigated further.

[deleted account]

Just because she only used her hand it can still be abusive, you do not need to use an object for it to be abuse. If excessive force was used even with only a hand then it would be abuse. Now I am not saying that this woman was abusive because she spanked her child BUT I cannot see why if she only spanked him with due force she would have all her children removed from her. There has to be more to this story than what we know. I agree that if it was a case of simple spanking she shouldn't have her kids taken off her (and I am anti spanking), a parenting class would be a better fitting 'punishment' for her (as she left marks).

Dana - posted on 06/20/2011

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Exactly, Dana. But, you see, some of those who spank can not admit that, otherwise they have to face the fact that they might have been in the wrong at some point in their lives.



It's better to defend the abuser! *eye roll*

Dana - posted on 06/20/2011

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So it's possible that the abuser lied about using her hand and not an object too. I mean how do we know she's credible?

Dana - posted on 06/20/2011

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Why do you think the grandmother "obviously" had an issue with the mother?

My view is that the judge and everyone involved, including the prosecution, in a conservative state, thinks that this woman did something wrong. She pled to a lesser charge which ended up being a felony injury - how on earth do you think what she did was right? All because she says she didn't use an object, just her hand??

Dana - posted on 06/20/2011

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Why is the grandmother going to "get hers". There's no evidence that she did anything wrong, however there is evidence that the mother DID something wrong.

It's amazing how you pro-spanking people will stand up for someone just on the fact that you yourself spank. It could be that this woman is a total nut job - Yet you're blaming the grandmother. It's rather insane.

[deleted account]

I'm just confused about why you think that? Nobody here has all the facts, so you're jumping to conclusions about the grandmother, and a judge over someone who plead guilty.

This case didn't just go from the grandmother to the judge. Some kind of an investigation had to be done before it ever got in front of a judge. I love how the spankers are outraged.

Heather - posted on 06/20/2011

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depending on the child's skin, a light tap can leave a red mark. If the mark is there for more than 24 hours or if it's a bruise, maybe. There are too many people that have not truly seen an abused child. Once you see that, you will be able to distinguish between spanking and child abuse. The judge was hopefully going off of circumstances that were not released to the public.

Teresa - posted on 06/20/2011

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They were never able to catch the jack ass at home to interview him and get his side of the story since he was a truck driver.

[deleted account]

Every day people plead "guilty" to crimes that they didn't necessarily commit. It may shock you (those of you who know me) to learn that, in my youth, I plead "guilty" to a crime that I officially didn't commit. Why? Everyone says how "Oh, I'd NEVER plead guilty if I wasn't guilty". Right. Say that when you're scared and a prosecutor (or some other law enforcement agent) is sitting there pounding into your head what the OTHER consequences COULD be if you even attempted to prove your innocence. Now, take that fear and multiply it by a million, in the face of losing your children. ALL THREE OF THEM. I'm not saying this IS what happened, because we obviously don't know, but, it's possible. I plead guilty and maybe so did she, in order to avoid permanently losing her kids, as opposed to maybe only losing them temporarily. Life happens. The gentlest swat on the butt, through a diaper and two layers of pants, can still leave a mark. Personally, my gut tells me that this grandma had it in for her and finally had "ammo" to prove it. But...note that at the hospital, when the grandmother took the baby, there were no marks or visible signs of abuse. Hmmm.



We will never know all the facts of this case because in most states, juvenile records are sealed. All we can assume, and I don't like assuming, is that there must have been more to it than what they are telling us. And anyone who thinks that one mark on a baby's bottom is cause to take a child away from their mother is no friend of mine.



Edited to add : The crime I plead "guilty" to was a felony. I was faced with a choice. Either plead guilty and have time served, along with community service and restitution. Or. OR. Up to 25 years in prison. I didn't commit the crime. Is it on my juvenile record? Most certainly, yes ma'am. I walked, did my time picking up trash on the side of the highway, paid my fine and went on with my life. But was I guilty? Hell fucking no.

Jodi - posted on 06/20/2011

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I must also say, thinking about it further, it seems odd for the grandmother to take a child to the emergency room for red marks (no bruises, blood or broken skin). I must wonder as to the relationship between mum and dad (paternal grandmother's son). Especially as now the paternal grandmother has custody of the children. There was possibly motive in her actions. Not that I condone the spanking anyway (after all, there were red marks that obviously hadn't faded, so it IS an injury), but it does make one wonder.

Jodi - posted on 06/20/2011

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Where I live, it is illegal to leave marks of any kind. Better just not to spank at all IMO. Then you don't have to worry about accidentally crossing the line.

I also suspect there is more to this story, however. It is unlikely to be the first time this has perhaps happened? Maybe there have been previous reports but no substantiation and this was just the straw?

[deleted account]

I wonder if someone scared her into pleading guilty saying that she'd get off easier for it? Or it's just that no one wants to share the truth.... I kind of find that a little hard to believe though since people tend to LOVE to run w/ a story.... who knows for sure? Not me.

Kate CP - posted on 06/19/2011

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I keep thinking "There HAS to be more to this story" but I can't find anything else. So either it's been tucked away nice and tidy and there's no leaks about any other incidences of abuse OR she really did have her kids taken away JUST BECAUSE she spanked them.

Helen - posted on 06/19/2011

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I think she lost the kids over more than just a spanking. There has to be more. I don't believe that you should NEVER leave marks, clearly that's abuse. I don't see anything wrong with spanking, as long as it's not out of anger.

Dana - posted on 06/19/2011

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Not only that but, the two yr old didn't say shit, the grandmother did! ;)

Rosie - posted on 06/19/2011

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i think its a bit much that the children were removed. like joy i used to spank, and have messed up in my quest to be a nonspanker a couple times. i don't feel that equates my children being taken away.
i do think there has to be more to the story.

[deleted account]

I did notice that (pleading guilty) on the other post of this topic, so yeah... I'm leaning towards the judge's side on THIS case now.

[deleted account]

I definitely do not automatically trust a judge's decision. I know of a case where a boy was removed from his mother for spanking him w/ a slipper on his butt. Yes, I know... object=abuse, but the boy didn't have a mark on him and the man that he was given to had beaten his mother to a bloody pulp right in front of him. She later DID get full custody, but the removal and only getting to see his mother for supervised visitations were quite disruptive at the time.

Teresa - posted on 06/19/2011

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Yes Jennifer there was evidence. I had pictures and there were still blood blisters on him bum. The DCFS worker documented it all and still nothing happened. Very frustrating.

Jenni - posted on 06/19/2011

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@Teresa Link- was there evidence? Did he still have the marks? If it happens again, take photographs and document it. That's really sad, I'm so sorry that happened to your 3 year old grandson.

I'm a little torn on this because I don't know the full details of the case. For a first time offence, I would think the best route is parenting classes not removal of children but part of me is applauding the judge, since I don't agree with spanking whatsoever.
To me the line is so fine between what's abuse and what isn't and entirely subjective. Besides, what are the chances this is a first time occurance? This is just the time it was documented.
When I think of spanking children, I think of a day when it was completely within a man's right to physically discipline his wife. I imagine at the time, we would have been hearing the same excuses justifying hitting a woman as we do now with hitting a child. When I hear people use justifications for spanking their children, I can't help but insert the word 'wife' for 'child'.
When abuse comes down to a matter of degrees, it's a dangerous thing to be tampering with, at all.

Teresa - posted on 06/19/2011

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Hey Petra - I reported my daughter's boyfriend for leaving marks on my grandson and they did NOTHING at all. Very frustrating. He spanked him with a pancake turner/spatula. Left blood blisters on his bottom. He was 3 and he would not sit down and eat. Heart breaking. DCFS did come but NOTHING happened as a result.

Petra - posted on 06/19/2011

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There are a lot of other factors that would support removal of the kids, even if it is the first incident. If she had a bad attittude in Court, if she had some other areas of potential neglect/bad parenting in the home, if she is completely ignorant in terms of what constitutes abuse - though it is possible (but not as likely) that this particular Judge is imposing his preference in his interpretation of the law. Unless anyone can find the complete reasons for judgment, all we have is that she spanked her child hard enough to leave a mark, Grandma saw the marks and lost her shit and took the child to the hospital.

I kind of want to high-five Grandma here.

[deleted account]

I think the judge is privy to information we're not, I really don't think he would take the kids off their mum over one incident (like this one) so it must have happened before.

Dana I absolutely assumed the judge was a woman too...

Teresa - posted on 06/19/2011

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I certainly hope this mother gets her child back if it was all over a spanking. And I mean a swat or two when I say spanking not the use of a belt or board etc.

Spanking is not illegal in Texas so that makes this judge wrong all over the place. It is his job to interpret the law as written not make new law to suit his personal fancies.

Where I live spanking is not illegal either.

[deleted account]

The Judge is a he, not a she, Loureen. Just sayin'.....

I originally assumed it was a woman too, but I'm not sure why. Interesting, isn't it? I was surprised to know that it was a male judge. Possibly another debate though...

Charlie - posted on 06/18/2011

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I am with the judge ...he said when she is deemed capable she could have them back ...take some parenting classes and take them seriously and then get your kid back and keep your hands OFF them .

[deleted account]

That is clearly abuse though, Jenn.

Some people do bruise super easy though. As I said in the other post on this topic... I bruise SUPER easy. All throughout my childhood my mom was afraid someone would call CPS on her because of various bruises all over... and I was only ever spanked once in my entire life.

Jenn - posted on 06/18/2011

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My mom left marks all up and down my behind with a broken cutting board when I was young...wonder what the judge would think about that!

Dana - posted on 06/18/2011

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Yeah, I'm with you, Dana.

It's just still not clear. I know in other states (not sure which ones or if all of them possibly) leaving a mark is abuse which is deemed illegal.

Dana - posted on 06/18/2011

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That's exactly what I was saying in my post above yours, Dana. Marks cross the line from a "simple" spanking into abuse. So, I question the statement of "isn't officially illegal in Texas".

[deleted account]

"......reasonable discipline"

That sorta leaves it up to the judge then, doesn't it? I guess he figured it wasn't reasonable.

Kate CP - posted on 06/18/2011

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That's not how the law is written in Texas, Dana. This is the penal code:

"Abuse does not include reasonable discipline by a parent/guardian/managing or possessory conservator if child not exposed to substantial risk of harm. Family Code Sec. 261.001.[Ci.] Parent/stepparent/person standing in loco parentis to child is justified to use non-deadly force against a child under 18 when and to degree the actor reasonably believes necessary to discipline, or safeguard or promote child's welfare. Penal Sec. 9.61.[Cr.]"

[deleted account]

"......isn’t officially illegal in Texas."

Nope, it's not illegal. And I do tend to agree with Teresa to some extent. If this was a one time, first time incident, it does seem a bit extreme. THAT is why I'm convinced there's more to the story.

On the other hand, don't marks constitute "abuse". I just think there HAS to be more to the story. I'm going to see if I can find something else that has more details.

Dana - posted on 06/18/2011

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Hm, I thought it was illegal when there are marks left, which crosses the line into abuse.

[deleted account]

Dana, spanking is not illegal. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

I too think it is a bit extreme to take the children. I'm with Teresa. If an investigation found more...then I'd be behind the removal of the children.

[deleted account]

Removed my first paragraph just in case I'm still being 'stalked'.... ;)



Now, yes... if a proper investigation and such did take place and there was found to be good reason to remove the children.... I'd be fine w/ it. I'm going off of only what was said in the OP though and it doesn't mention any of that.

[deleted account]

Teresa, if marks were witnessed, do you think that it's the first time she "spanked" hard enough to leave a mark? What "circumstances" would make it ok with you?

While I think removing the children is extreme for a first time offender, I have a feeling there is more to this story than we're privy to here?!?!

Wouldn't CPS be called in to do an investigation before a court and a judge were involved?

Dana - posted on 06/18/2011

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If it's illegal, then it's illegal. In cases like that there are no other circumstances.

[deleted account]

Yep, I can't help but agree with the judge. I'm glad her punishment also included a parenting course, although I don't think THAT alone is enough. A one time parenting course, unless it's primary focus is to teach positive discipline techniques IN DEPTH, is not enough. It's definitely a start though. Progress, not perfection. Right?

[deleted account]

I have mixed feelings on this due to a personal experience 7-7.5 years ago. Do I think this woman was right to spank hard enough to leave a mark? Absolutely not. Do I think this one incident in and of itself should be enough to remove her kids from her home? No.... it would depend on other circumstances to me.

Katherine - posted on 06/18/2011

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I say good too. She deserved probation and everything she got....jerk.

Dana - posted on 06/18/2011

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Oh no, there's two threads about this lady. Yours was up first but, I posted to the other thread. I'm just going to C & P my post referring to her sentencing.

You - posted 1 minute ago

I say good! No child should have marks on them from any parent's discipline. -ESPECIALLY a two yr old!

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