spanking study/debate

Christina - posted on 02/08/2012 ( 410 moms have responded )

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http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/spanki...

my only comment is I personally noticed a link between lack of punishment to lack of respect for authority... I am not saying everyone every were needs to beat there kids but after working with kids I am much more for stricter parenting. Only a parent knows their kid well enough to know the best punishment for them, but I think the outlawing spanking your disrespectful, rude, mean, brat is wrong. Then studies sayin staying specifically American children are arrogant and have high entitlement issues because of to much positive feed back and the whole everyones a winner thing... there seems to be no happy medium studies like this come out then more laws come out and next thing you know your once toddler that didnt respond to time out is standing in F_*$ YOU, MAKE ME, OUR NOT MY BOSS! At a whole 10 yrs old making a seen that embarrasses everyone...

Just wondering what yall think about it I guess do the benifits out way the risks, and what form of punishment or rewards do you use, do you use different things for each kid an if so why?

I spank on occasion when the situation is extreme and nothing else has worked, my son never has really responded well to time outs but my daughter has so she gets less spankings. We do use rewards for potty training in the form of stickers which has worked wonders for my son, but thats the only reward system we have used and that has stuck

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Karla - posted on 02/25/2012

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I’ve been thinking about this thread and I’m having trouble with the way things are being approached.



I think there are a lot of assumptions about what pro-spanking and anti spanking parents think. It appears to me that many of us have used spanking in some form whether or not we believe it’s a good form of punishment. I’m sure that comes from our own history and how we were treated and of course our own beliefs on whether or not we believe it’s a proper way to punish.



The OP asked: “Just wondering what yall think about it I guess do the benifits out way the risks, and what form of punishment or rewards do you use, do you use different things for each kid an if so why? “



Even that question assumes there are benefits and risks. I think the difference between pro-spanking and anti-spanking parents is that one group believes the benefits do outweigh the risks, some go so far to claim there are no risks despite many studies that indicate otherwise. (Don’t ask for them, a whole list was posted many pages ago and you can do your own research at a University Library.)



While the other group believes the risks are not worth any suggested benefit.



This doesn’t mean we have to call names or insinuate ignorance. Obviously many from each group do not understand the other, but we are all in the same boat as far as trying to do our best.



It’s so frustrating though, to feel so confident in one’s beliefs and not have them validated. I think that’s why these studies have been such a big issue in the debate. The studies most definitely say even small amounts of spanking cause problems in people, and they say extreme use of spanking will almost definitely cause future problems in people, but if you have no faith in the study then of course you discount it entirely.



I really think there is no winner in this particular debate, but I do hope some people can read it, and see the study-based articles cited here and use it to make the improvements in parenting that they desire.

Kate CP - posted on 02/22/2012

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*waves hand in the air* I use to spank and now I don't. I'll never do it again. Is it tempting? Hell, yes! But...it doesn't work. It breaks a child's spirit, it doesn't teach them to NOT do it again (just teaches them to not get caught), it teaches young children to hit when they're angry, and it's mean. To hit your kid is mean. I'm sorry, but there is no other way around it. You can tell me it's a tap, it's a swat, a light slap on the butt. Whatever. Own it, man: you HIT your kid. You may do it out of an attempt to teach them right from wrong but you're still hitting them. That's like saying you're starving a kid for getting fat. Yea, you're doing it "for their own good" but it's still WRONG.



As adults we need to model behavior for our kids: Keep your damn hands to yourself. Hands are for hugging and helping, NOT HURTING.

Johnny - posted on 02/08/2012

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As noted in the article, 32 countries have bans on spanking. These include Sweden, Finland, Norway, Austria, Cyprus, Italy, Denmark, Latvia, Bulgaria, Germany, Romania, Ukraine, Hungary, Greece, Netherlands, Portugal, Israel, Iceland, New Zealand, Uruguay, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Kenya, and Tunisia. I could not find research to suggest that it has effected these countries in any negative way. In fact, the research in Sweden (the first country to ban it in the 70's) has pointed to the opposite.



As well, for those major countries with no bans, UNESCO, Save the Children, the Australian Psychological Association, Canadian Paediatric Society, the British Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and Royal College of Psychiatrists and the American Academy of Pediatrics and the National Association of Social Workers all have stated that spanking has negative effects.



I am sure for those that believe that they are doing the right thing or that it is God's word, no amount of expert opinion will sway them from striking their children. No ban or law or guidelines will keep them from thinking that the only way for children to learn the most difficult of lessons is from a physical strike. I am sure this is the case in those countries that have banned it as well as those that are currently going in that direction.



I was spanked as a child. It did not harm me physically. I am not violent, quite the opposite. Although I have struggled for a long time with self-doubts, fear, guilt, and shame. Who knows if being spanked had any role in that? I did grow up much loved, well-cared for, attended to, and otherwise treated with respect by parents with whom I still have a good relationship. By parents who now say that if they had known then what they know now, would not have considered spanking me. Who believe that they could have taught the same lessons such as road safety and not talking back by other techniques as they did with spanking.



It saddens me that no amount of evidence, research, or data will ever be enough to get people to stop doing this. Random anecdotal stories, myths, family tradition, the local norms and the rules of bronze-age tribespeople appear to have more sway in how we discipline our kids.



I've been reading these debates for 3 years here on COM, and I've never heard one good reason to spank. Yeah, yeah, all kids are different. No shit. The evidence actually suggests that difficult, behaviorally challenged kids actually respond worse to spanking, not better. I'd love to see long-term, evidence-based data suggesting spanking is beneficial to children and helpful to society.

[deleted account]

I used to spank my son (on his bottom, through diaper and clothing) and Krista is absolutely right in that, for me, every single time I'd spank him, it was about ME and MY frustration. It most certainly wasn't about teaching him a lesson or changing his behavior. All it managed to do was to scare him. Once I realized this, it broke my heart. Just the THOUGHT of my son being afraid of me made me feel like curling up in a shame ball forever. So I stopped about a year ago, shortly after his 3rd birthday. I had to re-evaluate my reasoning behind every time I would feel the need for discipline and, as it turned out, he wasn't misbehaving just to misbehave. He wasn't doing things JUST to piss me off. Go figure. My son actually needed the most simple thing...to be heard. Once I figured that out, his behavior changed IMMEDIATELY. All it took was me simply getting down to his level, looking him in the eye and talking with him...WITH him, not TO him or AT him. More importantly, listening to him. Once he began to feel validated, it became much easier for him to stop his own unwanted behavior. Instead of throwing tantrums, he sometimes just comes to me and says, "Mommy, I feel sad." And then we get to the root of it. A few times, if I've said no to him having something he wants, he'll even say to me, "Mommy, I'm very angry at you right now." My reply? "I know baby. I'm sorry you're angry with me." 9 times out of 10, situation diffused immediately. I know that my examples only relate mostly to my own child. But I strongly believe that every parent can find a solution that works for their child(ren) and that spanking isn't necessary.



I got a lot of flack from people when I first stopped spanking, which I totally didn't expect. My aunt, my best friend and my girls online (you know who you are :) are the ONLY ones who showed me support and encouragement. Everyone else thought I was nuts. My own MIL, my son's grandma, actually told me that if I didn't spank him, he would end up out of control and eventually end up in prison. How she made that leap is another story but, it most certainly wasn't the support I had hoped for. What few seemed to understand was that, for me, I saw far too much of my mother in me when I was angry. I grew up in a home that consisted of about every kind of abuse you can imagine. Physical, verbal, sexual, emotional, you name it. So in the end, for me, when I was spanking my son, I was walking a very thin line that I'm POSITIVE I would have crossed eventually, had I continued spanking. I choose every day not to go there. Do I sometimes WANT to still spank him? Sure. But I also know for a fact that it wouldn't do either of us any good. He'd learn to fear me, not respect me and I'd take a ride on the shame spiral.



And that brings up something else. Someone mentioned respect or the lack of it in kids today, who aren't spanked. If you spank your kids, what makes you so sure that they respect you? Do you ever stop and wonder if maybe your kids obey you out of fear of the consequences of physical punishment, rather than out of respect? True respect has nothing to do with fear. Respect is earned, and I just don't see how you can earn someone's respect, especially a young child, by using a physical punishment like spanking as a tool. And just to clarify, this last part isn't meant to be a stab at those of you who do spank. I'm sure most of you spank and don't cross that line into abuse. But it still doesn't make sense to me, the respect thing, and how it relates to spanking.

Karla - posted on 02/09/2012

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I’m going to respond to a bunch of stuff on here, my own methods are at the end:

Linked study:

”While banned in 32 countries, corporal punishment of children retains at least partial social acceptance in much of the world. Debates on the issue typically revolve around the ethics of using violence to enforce discipline.

With the study, Durant hopes parents will start to look at the issue from a medical perspective.”




I doubt that these 32 countries have a huge problem with “disrespectful, rude, mean kids and adults. THE biggest issue with eliminating spanking as a form of punishment or discipline is to teach parents another way to guide and discipline their child(ren.)



OP:

”Only a parent knows their kid well enough to know the best punishment for them, but I think the outlawing spanking your disrespectful, rude, mean, brat is wrong.”



Children are immature, and they learn from modeled behavior. I think Joy described well the needed difference between punishment and discipline:



“My son actually needed the most simple thing...to be heard. Once I figured that out, his behavior changed IMMEDIATELY. All it took was me simply getting down to his level, looking him in the eye and talking with him...WITH him, not TO him or AT him. More importantly, listening to him. Once he began to feel validated, it became much easier for him to stop his own unwanted behavior.”



I cannot emphasize enough how spot on that description is. Keys to effective discipline/guidance are focused attention, eye contact, and physical contact aka hugs, etc. Getting down on his level and looking him in the eye and talking to him fits as ways to connect with your child, let them know that you care, and what you expect from them.




Deborah:

“He used to have an obsession with throwing things into the dog's water dish...pretty much anything he could get his hands on. THe only way we could get him to stop was to swat his butt once….He's stopped completely now, after he dumped one of his favorite toys in there and it doesn't light up or make noise anymore.”



So the thing that really affected his behavior was the natural consequence of having his toy malfunction after his unwanted behavior.



Alisha:

“It took me a long time to be 'ok' with spanking because I believed what the rest of the USA said about it that it was harmful, and it is harmful if done in the wrong way. But through reading God's Word I now know that it is necessary and it will help in training my daughter the right way to go.”



For the life of me, I cannot imagine Jesus spanking a child and I strongly disagree with many Christian advocates of spanking who claim the Bible tells them to do it.



For Christians who believe God wants them to spank their children, here is a very thorough article about what the bible says:

http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

I only hope you will be open minded enough to read it and consider their points.





OP:

“Just wondering what yall think about it I guess do the benifits out way the risks, and what form of punishment or rewards do you use, do you use different things for each kid an if so why?”



At the end of the article linked in the OP, there is a quote saying they have 80 to 100 studies indicating that spanking kids can cause long term harm. That is significant.



I personally don’t think it will help to outlaw spanking just yet, I think we need to keep educating people on effective methods to discipline their young without hitting them. There are many child psychologists who have written books, given workshops and written articles on the subject. It takes time for societies to change a habit, and some families will be more pro-active than others.



For instance in my family my grandfather was very strict and spanked his first 3 children, but then he had more children, he was more calm and did not spank them. He told my mother (the 3rd born) that everyone should get a practice family, because he knew he made mistakes with his oldest children, and he wished he would have known better. With that knowledge, my mom read child psychology books, and she adjusted how she parented my brothers and I, and I in turn have adjusted my parenting. The long-term goal can be that each generation improves upon their own upbringing. I have shared this with my own children (2 adults and 2 teens now) in hopes that they will take it to heart.



I was fortunate enough to have taken some psychology in High School and College, and to have found a very good support group as a parent so that I could learn communication skills that helped me in my parenting. I have my set of books that I still recommend.



Along those lines, if you have been raised with spanking then you don’t really know another way, and change is very, very difficult. So taking a workshop or class where communication skills are practiced in a group setting can be very helpful. It forces you to use the skills you have read about.



My job as a parent isn’t to force my child do as I say; my job is to teach them acceptance, kindness, patience, humility, wisdom, critical thinking, equality, treating others well, to help those in need, to work hard, and to know there is a time for everything. I don’t really see how spanking fits in that goal.



My parenting methods include expressing what is expected of them, treating them with respect, and generally modeling the behavior I expect from them. Natural consequences are very helpful, but my main methods in raising my children were distraction, filling their emotional tank through talks, eye contact (focused attention) and daily hugs. Discipline is relatively easy if you are proactive by being an attentive parent.

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Momma - posted on 11/24/2012

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I can be a very strict parent, when called for. Yes, my kids hair will curl when they have brought that part of their mother out. So, they do not do it often, typically only occurs now if it is a "new" learning curve for them and they are "testing" the limits. Again, very seldom. I do have patience and will allow for them to learn but when push comes to shove, I will win every single time. ;)



However, I have never ever laid a finger on my children and never ever would. I have no desire in making my kids afraid of me, while learning absolutely nothing. I am here to guide, teach, support, love and discipline NOT physically hurt them. Spanking is a cop out. It is a very lazy way to parent. I do not agree with that approach and never ever will. Every child I have ever seen (including myself) act out a heck of a lot worse when being handed corporal punishment, over firm discipline. I have heard many mother attest to this, as well. "I spank my kids and it does nothing but make them angrier". Yep, disrespect tends to do that.



I also am a firm believer that spanking messes kids up. Yes, I know, many say "well I was spanked and I am fine" but one has to ask themselves - am I? Am I really fine? Do I have issues that I have never matched to my childhood - to spanking? Many psychologists will say it will mess up a child and I know from first hand how it affects the little beings. If others want to take the chance, go for it but this Momma believes in respect and understanding with firm consequence not the firmness of my hand.



Hands are met for loving, hugging and comforting. They should not be associated with anger.



~Meme

Willow Jean - posted on 11/23/2012

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As a 13 year old kid myself I think spanking is not an option up until I was 9 I was spanked and now I live with my grandparents hate my parents and I know that hitting the hand when they are 5 is ok but full out beating your kids butt until it turns red is not ok cause when I was little my dad had lost all feeling in his hands so when I was spanked I couldn't sitt down for 30 mins so from a kids point of view I think it should be outlawed

[deleted account]

I've been away a while, so I'm going to jump back a few pages to the "any discipline can be taken too far and become abuse" sentiment.



So what sets spanking apart from these other forms of discipline if only done in moderation?



First, those other forms of discipline are ONLY harmful if taken to excess, whereas spanking has been consistently proven to be harmful whether it is taken to excess or not.

For example: taking a toy away every now and then might make a child sad, but it will not inflict long term harm.

Spanking a child every now and then will also make the child sad, but will also inflict long term harm.



Second, spanking is not technically a form of discipline, it is a punishment. Discipline teaches a child something about their behavior. Now, if you talk to your child before or after their spanking about their behavior, that speech is the discipline, but they do not learn anything from the actual spanking other than "mom's hand hurts me." The speech is not a part of the spanking, it is a separate form of discipline often done in conjunction with a spanking.

Jodi - posted on 02/25/2012

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Actually, Christina, this group isn't a support group, it is a debate group. And this is a debate.

Christina - posted on 02/25/2012

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I really do appreciate all the opinions here but have been very disappointed in the amount of attacking one another for their parenting style, this group is for support and it is possible to disagree but support one another in a kind way I am done and locking this thread because it has greatly disappointed me in the lack of kindness an respect to one another here good luck to all of you

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Laura are you telling me not to back out of it? If so, sorry but no backing out. I said what I said and I meant it. Spanking is abuse, I did not say any one was an abuser because they spank. They can be though. So, I had it right the first time and no I did not back out of what I said. I just said it again... ;)



In my world spanking is a form of abuse, I didn't say anyone else has to agree. I also didn't call anyone anything ever.



Edited to add: I am also not the one that was talking abuse to begin with, I just ran with it once it was referred to numerous times. Hard not to...

Jenni - posted on 02/25/2012

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I do understand this is a sensitive topic and it's difficult to not take that sort of opinion personal. I personally, try to avoid the word because it's destructive in these debates.

Jenni - posted on 02/25/2012

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Sally, no one on this thread has called another parent an abuser. They said they consider spanking abuse. Which is generally why they have chosen not to spank. They see the act of spanking as abusive. That is not the same as calling a parent abusive.



I could say, I think riding a bike is dangerous! And you may ride bikes and not feel the same. It is not the same thing as if I said; you are dangerous for riding a bike. It is an opinion on the topic being discussed.

Isobel - posted on 02/25/2012

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IF spanking is abuse then ipso facto the spanker is the abuser. It's fine to believe it, but don't try to back out of it when somebody calls you on it.



I have to say that while I don't spank my kids, I don't think it's necessary, nor is it the most effective tool in the belt, I don't feel particularly abused either. I got two spankings in my life, hand to butt and I remember them clearly as well as why I got them.



I think everybody takes this whole topic to crazy extremes. There are parents out there who spank rarely as a form of discipline, and there are people out there who beat their kids. I think it's also important to remember that there are people out there who claim to be "positive parents" who are just giving their kid whatever they want instead of the amazing parenting syle that I know many of my friends use.

[deleted account]

"That is total bull, "any discipline can cross the line into abuse." " -- oh ya...I quoted that right from one of your fellow anti-spankers posts.



oh really? you think i don't read all the posts before i reply??



One correction, I am not anti-spanking, I am pro human rights for all, especially children.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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I am also wondering what it is you pro-spankers want here. Do you want us to submit and say "OK, you guys are wonderful spanker's and do it in a professional manner"? What do you want? What do you want to gain from this debate? I know what I want to gain.



I want to know that when a new mother or a mother seeking advice comes across this thread can see that there are other ways other than spanking. They will notice that a large quantity of parent's do not agree with spanking. They will be able to reference the sites that have been cited and be able to make an educated decision.



I know we aren't going to get any of you to change your minds, each of you are unwilling to even take the opportunity to learn and read the studies that have been cited. However, if a new comer coming in actually has questions and is on the fence of what to do, I can pretty much guarentee they will see which side had evidence and which side was just blowing smoke out their butt holes!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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I do however want to here an answer to Mary's question(s). I too am very interested. Perhaps it will help us understand why and when you spank.



Please provide some insight, other than you spank as a last resort or pick spanking over all the other disciplinary techniques you each say you use.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Sally, if you are referring to what I posted to Kelly, then I assure you that I practice what I preach. I've seen Kelly dodge posts and blatantly ignore questions directed straight at her. THEN has the nerve to tell someone that they are only giving their opinion when it fact that is not true at all. It was just an uneducated statement. NO need for it

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Sally, I didn't say they were abusers I SAID spanking is a form of abuse in my opinion. Twist as you may to fit your thoughts. However, keep it within your own grasp because I did not say a spanker IS an abuser, they are inflicting abuse when they spank! Big difference. If they were an abuser then they would do it all the time, I know and realize no spanker here does it all the time or even as their first reaction (at least I am trying to believe that) but when they DO spank, yes that is abuse...

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Thanks MeMe :) You are such a great mom. I am sure your daughter will take after you and always stand up for what she believes in :)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Jackie that is one of the reasons they (psychologists) say that a parent must assess all elements, their own tempermant is one of them. That is very smart and caring of you to understand yourself enough to know you "could" take it too far. Some parents are not capable of recognizing their faults and are not able to make the determination you have for yourself. I am not saying anyone else here has a tempermant - I do, I know that and, is also one of the many reasons I do NOT spank. I would be one that "could" take it too far.



I respect that in people when they decide to work on their downdfalls, rather than avoid them. There is nothing more appealing than a person that is willing to look at themselves and notice who they are and how to fix any negatives. Bravo to you! ;)

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Who called another parent an abuser? I surely didn't



I am only responsible for what I type, not for what you interpret.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Kelly, not only has MeMe given her opinion and shared her story but she has given us many statistics. She's good at finding research. BEFORE you make another uneducated statement, read back through the posts. If you can't read back through the posts, and no one is making you of course, then don't make statements about what someone has or hasn't said.

Mary - posted on 02/25/2012

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I have a genuine question for those of you who do chose to spank. As I have read through these pages of posts, it seems as if all of the "spankers" say that this is only one of several disciplinary tools that they use. I've also seen many a parent say they use it as a "last resort".



So my question is this: what, specifically, is it, that makes you choose that particular method over another that you utilize? What differentiates an offense that requires spanking over a time-out, a harsh word, or loss of an object/privilege (or whatever other methods you employ?)



I really am not trying to imply anything here - I'm truly just trying to understand precisely what mitigates this choice.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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WOW!! *shaking head* It's din-din.....and quite frankly I've heard it all now. Statements like that are put out there and then you wonder....why is the pro-side so upset?? Geeeeeeee I wonder......I guess you don't know where to draw lines.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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"I love my children, they are my whole world. I care for them and nurture them and do everything to make their life perfect!



WHACK!!! WHACK!!!! "Don't touch that, sweetheart!"



yep.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Meme...that last post said it all. Really. That's it. Awesome :)



It's a quick fix, and it CAN go too far.



I will admit...I have a temper, I do. I can be nasty. I am on medication for it. Another reason why I won't spank.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Yes Kelly B. In my definition of crossing the line it is with spanking in general. To me that is crossing the line and it is abuse. Maybe not to you but that's your choice. If you have to hit anyone it is abuse... It most definitely is not sweet, caring, understanding, or loving.



Edite to add:

If someone hit you would you not consider it abuse? I surely would. I would have them charged after I defended myself of course. Why is it different for a child? They can't call you out on it that's why. Spanker's are BIG MEANIE'S!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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No it isn't. Spanking is the beginning and it can escalate quickly. Most people that have accidentally went too far, started out with spanking lightly. Most people are not abuser's Kelly B. Most people are just trying to correct bad behaviour with a quick, temporary fix. However, it is that spanking that can lead into abuse! No assumption, it is obvious that's how abuse can start, not always but often... If you don't spank you don't have to worry about it.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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"Spanking is just abusive regardless of how you look at it." -- what a loaded statement. Another false one but whatever floats your boat. Nice to see you're starting to be honest.....so now you equate all spankers to child abusers....NIIIIIICE.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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"Spanking however is the beginning of the line to breaking bones and killing the child it a fit of rage and can only take a few seconds to do." --THAT is quite an assumption. A false one at that.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Sorry but it is not bull... What you think is discipline, your child may take it as a punishment. It is all about how you use your methods on whether or not it can become abusive... Spanking is just abusive regardless of how you look at it. It is called corporal punishment for a reason.



If you always put your kid in time-out for everything and always take their privileges away for any small thing, to that mother it is discipline but for the next it could be considered punishment and abuse....



Jullianne

I only use discipline in my home as well but it all depends on how you use that tool (figure of speech) to deploy your technique because it can become punishment and it can become abuse...

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Melody, yes you are correct it is abuse BUT it started out with the intention of only being a spank. You aren't fully reading and trying to understand what I am saying.



People have accidentally crossed the line from a spanking to abuse because of anger during the few second fit of rage.



If you don't spank you will never accidentally cross that line that you have defined in your own head.



I also rarely, if ever see a parent spank their child in public, I am not talking abusing them, I am talking spanking them. So, it is apparent that spanking is also not done very often in public. Why is this? It's obviously not because they feel they are abusing their child. So, since you do spank, tell me why hardly anyone does it in public?



Kelly B. The definition of crossing the line is still open for debate. Some parents may yell and they may not consider that abuse. No one here has said they don't know where the line is drawn for them, they have said not all people are able to determine where that line is for other's. So, one person may yell, or take privileges away in excess but they may also not believe it is abuse. Do you understand that yet? No one can say where someone else draws the line because it is different for EVERYONE.



In addition Kelly B. I have provided you with research, somewhere back on page 2 or 3. Go take another gander. I have also stated that I WAS spanked and it had very negative outcomes on me. So, I am living proof that parents cannot determine how spanking is affecting their child. I also stated before that if my mother had known how it was affecting me, she probably would not have done it. She too, thought she was just disciplining me, she was sadly mistaken... I also have many more articles and studies I can cite. Again, where is your proof? Oh in your kids, right, I forgot....



Spanking however is the beginning of the line to breaking bones and killing the child it a fit of rage and can only take a few seconds to do. Yelling at a child over and over and over again will have dyer outcomes but it is not a few second ordeal such as spanking.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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"That is total bull, "any discipline can cross the line into abuse." " -- oh ya...I quoted that right from one of your fellow anti-spankers posts.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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"And I am sorry, but I have to disagree with the comment about people not knowing the difference between discipline and abuse" -- OMG!!!!!! YES!! Someone else finally said it!! I've been saying this all along.

[deleted account]

That is total bull, "any discipline can cross the line into abuse." Explain how teaching someone something is abuse.

Discipline is to teach, not to punish. Any punishment can cross the line into abuse, I agree there, and its not the parent who needs to think its abusive, its the child. Thats why i do not use punishment to discipline my children.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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"Any discipline can cross the line into abuse." -- WELL DONE!!! *applauding you* CAN cross the line. So, how is it when a parent uses the OTHER methods they just miraculously know very clearly where that line is....but the pro side can't determine that if they spank?

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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Oh no, we have been providing you with research since the beginning. -- MeMe....you've provided me with nothing except YOUR opinion. Actually a few pages back you even stated very proudly that you didn't need research because you have personal experience. Can't have it both ways.



I never said they were used in yours. I was simply refuting your statement of "old" ways don't need to be corrected. ;) -- You don't know what goes on in others homes any more then I do. We do however each have our own experiences. The "old" ways was actually Sally's comment and I said the old ways...in my family have been used by my entire family and did not include paddles and belts. You are assuming that because some people used certain methods that everyone did. did you family use paddles and belts and whips?? I know mine didn't. It appears Sally's didn't. It also appears Melody's didn't. So who exactly are you talking about??

[deleted account]

MeMe......a spanking that goes awry in seconds and leave broken bones and the like?? That isn't a spanking......it is abuse. Anything that leaves a mark on a child is NOT discipline. That isn't rocket science. And while this discussion is more focused on spanking, I still find it pertinent to bring up the damage that other methods can do as well, since the assumption is that we, as pro corporal discipline, are hurting our children.



You tout the other methods as the best ways and in no way harm a child. Which again, is not true. There is not one single discipline method that, if employed in a mean spirited and hurtful sadistic way, will not harm a child. BUT, you clearly assume that everyone knows where to draw the line with those methods! Yet not between a swat and a beating. I find that a bit laughable.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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I didn't say parents don't know the difference. I said in numerous posts that the line may become foggy because of stress.



For example: a mother comes home from work after a long day and her and the father are arguing. A child is doing something he/she was told not to do and the mother gets fed up with him/her not listening and WHACK WHACK WHACK...you just abused your child.

[deleted account]

Nothing my father did even comes close to being called discipline. He beat me. If he got angry for any reason, we were his punching bags. That isn't discipline.



My mother made sure that even if the method was losing a prized item that I understood why I was losing it. Or if I was grounded, she made sure I understood why. I was never disciplined without us talking about it.



And I am sorry, but I have to disagree with the comment about people not knowing the difference between discipline and abuse. If that were true, men who beat their wives would do so in public. Or folks who enjoyed knocking around their kids wouldn't hide it either. My father always made sure there was no one around and he never hit my face! Because he knew it was wrong!!! The excuse that they didn't know they were doing wrong is a crock!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Any discipline can cross the line into abuse. However, we are talking about spanking in this thread. We could not go into all the disciplining methods and how each can be damaging. It is also true that even though any discipline can go awry, spanking can go wrong in seconds and it can kill, leave children with broken bones and the alike. Yelling is most definitely detrimental but it won't put them in a grave and it will not leave broken bones. It is still not right to go overboard with anything that is negative but spanking IS the only method that can cross the line to physical abuse and death....

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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I agree, Kate that was very educational. I could point out like 2 or 3 things that I had no idea about. Thank you :)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

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Well said Kate. Excellent wording and explanation! That was very interesting and held very true statements. I concur whole heartedly...

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Melody, you don't have to answer this because I don't want you to ave to dig up old demons but the main reason why I am a non-spanker is because I don't think all parents know when that line is crossed and it is abuse.



Would you say that one of the biggest reasons your parents were different in their disciplinary methods was that your mother talked to you?



I guess my other problem is that if a mother actually stops and talks to a child about why what they did was wrong, and especially if it was because they hit someone, then why hit them? Isn't that counterproductive?



Like I've said before, I was hit once in my life by my dad. I remember everything about that moment, the embarrassment, the shame, not wanting to even kiss him goodnight. I believe that had he talked to me I would have understood and apologized. Instead he left me speechless and hurt.



This is just my opinion. May I add that the reason why he hit me (and it was twice on my bum) was because I told my mom I didn't believe in God. Imagine that. Not only was I not allowed to have my own beliefs but I was being punished for it.

[deleted account]

Well, now my girdle is in a bunch!! lol There are many children broken and defeated by parents who take no time for them, or parents who don't praise them, or parents who ridicule and belittle. Parents who yell all the time, parents who don't accept a childs best and make them feel like they are never enough or good enough. To imply that children are broken and defeated by A SWAT to the clothed bottom, or a smack on the hand is quite the assumption to make!



I was a broken and defeated child and it took me years to overcome that! YEARS! But I was that way from an abusive alcoholic father. The few swats from my Mama were in the context of correcting a behaviour that nothing else had corrected. She didn't slap me willy nilly and for something small like spilling a glass of milk. And I completely understood why she had used it and what was the cause of it. She didn't just knock me around and walk away. She always talked to me. Always let me know she loved me and always listened to me. But for her, I don't think I would ever have got past the crap my father did to me. It angers me when someone wants to suggest that the actions of my mother and the actions of my father even sort of equate to each other!!

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

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Melody, I have to agree with that post. A parent can cross the line in other disciplinary acts.



I remember one time I was babysitting and the 5 year old was playing with barbies and her brother, who was 4, was watching tv but holding one of the barbies.



The father got home and freaked out at the sight of his boy playing with a girl toy. I mean he yelled at him. I went home that night and I felt awful, I wanted to hug that little boy. I was NOT too young to know that his reaction would cause damage but I also knew it wasn't my place.

[deleted account]

While I agree that there are many methods that work for children and some work for one and not another, nothing I have ever done to my children, including a swat to the behind, has ever left them broken and defeated.



But thank you for the very kind analogy.

Kate CP - posted on 02/25/2012

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I'm a professional pet trainer and I specialize in behavior issues. I never condone physical reprimanding of an animal. It makes the whole situation worse. You should never hit a dog, grab them by the collar and drag them some where, push them, flick them or thump them, or use anything to swat a dog with. It doesn't work and it makes them more likely to lash out OR have behavior problems like submissive urination, guarding, or aggression.



Now, I *used* to be a very "old school" trainer. I believed in alpha or submission rolls, aggressive leash and collar corrections, and the idea that a dog was being defiant because they were being "dominant". But...I learned something fascinating. Dogs aren't defiant for the sake of being defiant...they just don't understand what you want or how to do it. They WANT to please you and make you happy. They can read your facial expressions and hear your tone of voice and can tell when you're pleased.



A dog doesn't choose not to sit when you tell him to because he's being defiant. He doesn't do it because something distracted him, or he doesn't know the command, or he didn't understand the verbal/physical cues you gave him, or he's afraid of you or something else, etc etc. If you ask a dog to sit and they don't comply your response should NEVER include hitting, collar corrections, or alpha rolls. Your response should be a simple "Wrong" and lure them into the sitting position and reward them with praise/food/physical affection.



Raising kids is a lot like training dogs. If you see things from their perspective you understand the way they learn and explore. I just can't think of ANY situation where a spanking would work better or be more effective than a different method. And because of that, I don't spank my kids. I *used* to spank my daughter because she would have a fit. And I mean a FIT: she would scream, holler, throw things at me, kick, bite, slap...and nothing worked. We tried time outs, ignoring her, taking away privileges, talking to her, helping her understand her feelings, and finally spanking her. You know what the spanking did? Made it worse. She would rage at us because we violated her person. So what, you may be asking, did we do to fix the problem? We fed her. That's right, she's hypoglycemic and when her blood sugar drops she turns into a demon. The moment we see a fit coming on now we give her a piece of cheese or a cracker or SOMETHING to get her blood sugar up and then we sit down and talk about the issue at hand. We haven't had a fit in months.



You (generalized "you") may think that spanking is an appropriate means of discipline for certain situations. I don't. You call it a "last resort". I call it a last ditch attempt to regain control. You say it works, that the proof is in the evidence of the child stopping the behavior. I see a child broken and defeated. Does that mean the kid will grow up damaged and need therapy? No, lots of us overcome the less pleasant aspects of life and learn to thrive despite it. But that doesn't mean that the experience was a positive one or that it helped in any way. A child who learns to fear a spanking doesn't learn right from wrong or how to make good choices: they learn what to do to not get hit.



I would rather my kids learn that writing on the wall is a bad choice because it doesn't make the house look nice, it's disrespectful to our home and things, and it makes more work for people; than to think writing on the wall is bad because I'll get spanked if I do it again. The fear of a spanking doesn't teach a kid WHY something is wrong or "bad"...it just teaches them that the experience will result in a swat. And THAT is why I don't agree with spanking and I don't think it's a "method" parents should use.

[deleted account]

If we want to split hairs, any form of discipline taken to an extreme can damage a child. I grew up with a girl whose parents took EVERYTHING away for the slightest of trangressions. They almost seemed to delight in the control. This woman is now a hoarder, because she has a fear of her things being taken away. But, they never used corporal discipline, so that must make it alright. I wonder where they would fit into the studies??



No discipline should be used without also talking to our babies and making sure they understand what has prompted whatever method is used. And also making sure they understand that it was only the behaviour that caused the need for discipline. And most importantly, that no matter what they do, we love them.

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