Students for Concealed Carry on Campus.

Sarah - posted on 04/19/2011 ( 44 moms have responded )

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13112819

Four years after America's worst ever college shooting, a student group has told Newsbeat they should be allowed their own hidden guns in classrooms.

The organisation, called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, was set up after 32 staff and students were killed at Virginia Tech, on 16 April 2007.

Twenty-five-year-old David Burnett from Lexington, Kentucky, is the group's president.

He holds a 'concealed carry' permit and keeps a hand-gun hidden beneath his shirt most of the time.

He says it is unfair that most US colleges do not allow permit-carrying gun owners to bring weapons on campus.

What do you all think? Is more guns the answer to this?

Being from the UK, I would say a resounding NO to that question!

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Carol - posted on 04/19/2011

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As a mom and a woman, I think all guns should be destroyed and banned everywhere in the universe. Thank you.

Jenni - posted on 04/19/2011

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Hmmm. Considering the US is the leading country in gun-related deaths I'd say a lot of their laws need to be tightened.

Lady Heather - posted on 04/19/2011

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Some of us like to eat meat not from the grocery store. I suppose we could all use bow and arrow, but I think my husband would suck at that.

Other people work jobs around dangerous animals, like friends of mine who do forestry work amongst Grizzlies. I guess they should just die if they are attacked?

Guns have their place. Not sure loading up the colleges with guns would help anything. Seems to me like that's just more bullets whizzing around.

Jenni - posted on 04/22/2011

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@Shawnn Well, yes... fewer guns means fewer deaths. I also compared the violent crime rates of the US compared to other countries. The US is comparable in violent crime rates to the rest of the developed world... Yet their murder rate soars above the rest at 6.9 times higher. When comparing these countries in death by guns (murders, suicides, accidental) 80% of gun related deaths occur in the US. 86% of women killed by guns were US women and 87% of children killed by guns were US children.



The U.S. unintentional firearm death rate was 5.2 times higher than that of the other high-income countries combined.



The homicide rate in the US is 6.9 times higher and gun-related homicide rate is 19.5 times higher.



Here's my reference for stats: http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-a...



Also, here is the case study I cited:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20571...



I also suggest you compare violent crimes and murders in the UK compared to the US. Violent crime rates in the UK are far greater than the US... yet far less murders are reported and even less murders by guns. My husband's family is from the UK and from what I've heard... they can be a pretty rough bunch there. So using the US's higher violent crime rates to account for higher homicide rates and homicides per guns would be invalid.



Edit to add: actually I'll give you the stats because it IS interesting. In 2008 the US reported 267.9 violent crimes per 100 000 people and in the UK the rate is 769.8 violent crimes per 100 000 people.

Yet the US homicide rate is 0.4 per 1000 people and is ranked 24th/62 countries.

Whereas the UK's rate is 0.1 per 1000 people and is ranked 46th/62 countries.

So what I gather from this is... the UK is far more violent... yet.... far less violent acts end in death. Now why is that? Maybe because it's a heck of a lot harder to stab or beat someone to death than it is to shoot them. Guns are more impersonal and more efficient.



Also, the chances of you accidently killing someone or yourself with a knife, baseball bat or fist is pretty much slim to none when compared to a gun.



I know, you promote gun safety and yes I understand... in capable, responsible hands with someone who follows safety regulations there is probably not much to worry about. Unfortunately, you cannot stop irresponsible lunatics from getting their hands on them when they are so readily available. As Kati pointed out... they do make it into the wrong hands more often than not. The stats don't lie.



In Canada, Australia and others we do not ban guns completely. We do almost entirely ban hand guns. We use long guns or hunting rifles for gaming and hunting purposes only.



Another interesting fact is the UK has far less gun ownership than most other developed countries like Canada and Australia for example. The UK has the lowest homicide rates by guns and also a much lower rate of overall homicides than Canada and Australia.



Now let me think about this... a country which is more violent than the US and definitely more violent than Australia or Canada has less homicides than all of us??? Maybe, just maybe it's to do with the correlation between far stricter laws on guns than the rest of us.

Rosie - posted on 04/22/2011

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per capita the united states has apprximately 3 times more murders than canada, australia and uk. overalll crime is about the same, but i'd rather have my mothers car stolen, than my mother murdered-but that's just me! :)http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mu...



i'd also advise against leaving your gun in your car, it's just asking to be stolen. just like 200 homeland security officers got their stolen because they left them in their car.http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/...



that's what really bothers me the most about our right to bear arms. people just think they can leave them anywhere and it will be ok. that's how criminals get guns. cho (the virginia tech gunman) was mentally unstable, and had a criminal background, and was still able to legally get weapons to kill 33 people on a school campus. something needs to change about the way people feel about their guns, and HOW they get their guns.

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Amber - posted on 04/22/2011

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Oy, I didn't realize the gun was in the car. That is not proper gun safety.
To say that your guns are safely stored in your house is not true if your gun is currently unguarded in a car, which is easy to break into. I can't imagine a gun safety class teaching that as a proper safety procedure.

[deleted account]

I see where the kid is coming from, but I do not think it is a viable solution for the campus shooting problems.

In the US, to OWN a hand gun, you have to provide a background check, finger prints, and fill out an application, then wait for processing, which varies by state from one day up to 14 days. The process seems pretty fool proof, but as the earlier article stated, it is not difficult to have guns purchased for you, the going rate is less than $2k for this (the buyer has to report the gun stolen before the criminal can use it or he/she will be held accountable for the crime). You can also purchase documentation to buy a gun legally even if you are not legally allowed to own a gun, going rate, still under $2k. It is also illegal to give away or sell a gun without reporting it, but it still happens. The gun industry in the US works a lot like the global money laundering industry, but on a more domestic scale.


I am an American, and I enjoy our right to arms, but something more MUST be done to keep them out of the hands of criminals and mentally unstable (unfortunately, I have no idea what could be done). As for concealed carry permits, the safety course costs less than $50 in all states that require them, and can be completed in a single day--I'm sorry, one day of training is NOT enough to qualify someone to carry and use a concealed weapon in public.

Amber - posted on 04/22/2011

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@ Shawnn ~ Not all states require you to pass a proficiency course to carry concealed.



My state, Indiana, only requires that you provide finger prints, have a background check done, fill out an application with your personal information, provide the reason you want to carry, and pay the fee ($5-$25).

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 04/22/2011

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and, @ Tracey:

Yes, to be able to carry concealed, you must pass a proficiency course.

♫ Shawnn ♪♫♫ - posted on 04/22/2011

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Ok, to address a few things: First, there ARE already educational institutions that allow concealed carry on campus. CSU in Colorado is one.

Second: Everyone comparing US death rates per capita to Australia or Canada need to take into consideration the statements you have already made: That BOTH of those countries have fewer guns per capita. I bet that if you broke down the figures, you would find that the differences in the death rates are severely curtailed when you factor in the number of guns vs the number of deaths. The results, you would find, are closer than you think.

Third: We here in the US have an official declaration that guarantees our right to keep and bear arms. We are NOT the UK, nor are we any other country. Historically, the US has had different practices and policies than most of the rest of the world. They work for us, and we are not about to allow our government to regulate yet another phase of our daily lives.

My father is retired from the military. When I was growing up, all I saw of guns was his service revolver, and then only at cleaning times. When I got married, I was adamantly against having a gun in the house. That is, until we lived in the country and a neighboring dog started terrorizing my animals. My husband bought a .22 rifle, and refreshed me on shooting safety. I then had the means to protect my own dogs, and myself from this menace. (in our area, it is legal to shoot a dog if you live in the country and they are repeatedly out of their owner’s control) We now have many guns, safely stored in our home, all legally purchased. I, myself, own 2 concealed carry pistols. I don’t feel the need to carry daily, however, I do appreciate the fact that I have a legal right to do so if I feel the need to.

I am not a “professionally” trained person. However, I have completed firearms safety courses, and am quite proficient in my use of my firearms. I do know that, if I am in a situation where I feel I would need protection, I am more than capable of providing my own. When I travel, I always carry my pistol, as does my husband.

I realize that people in other countries (Australia, UK, etc) do not understand the American desire to have our firearms. You all need to understand that WE, as firearm owners, do not understand the passiveness of those particular societies in allowing themselves to be told that they aren’t capable of owning firearms and protecting themselves. I would be willing to bet your firearm crimes are lower, but firearms are not the only violent weapons out there. Knives, fists, vehicles all exist in other countries as well, and ALL can be just as lethal. There’s even a case going in NYC that is charging someone with “possession of a lethal weapon” because they slashed someone with an INK PEN.
As far as concealed carry on campus? I work on one, and I don’t have a problem in the world with it. I have a right to carry my firearm. I also (beginning July 1) have the right to carry that firearm concealed. As a matter of fact, my pistol is in my car now. I’m not trying to incite anything, but it really bothers me that people take such a narrowminded view of firearms issues. Everyone from outside the US seems to think that we would be a lot better off if we had the “same type of laws” as they do, but I maintain that if they looked into statistics for ALL violent crime, not just gun crimes, they would find that their country is just as violent, really.

Tara - posted on 04/22/2011

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As I type my mom is preparing to go Turkey Hunting soon. She has a hunting license is has killed turkeys and deer for meat. She always eats what she shoots and so do we. When she is not hunting her guns are locked up as is the ammunition in a separate case and the key in another place altogether. Her lifestyle is one of hunting, gathering and fishing. Guns don't kill people, people who don't respect guns kill people. Guns have their place in the world but not when it comes to using them against human prey.

Tara - posted on 04/22/2011

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Without a shadow of a doubt I say NO.
More guns will not solve gun crime in the states.

Tracey - posted on 04/22/2011

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If I am reading this correctly they are actually asking for permission to shoot and kill their classmates in the event that their fellow student starts shooting first in order to save other people's lives?
I would be very worried going to college with people who felt they were able to shoot me.

ME - posted on 04/20/2011

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This makes me sick! There are concealed carry bills popping up across the country...I will quit my job as a (college) teacher if one of these ever passes in IL. I've been threatened by crazy students who didn't like their grades before...I love teaching, but I am not crazy enough to risk my life over it...

Amber - posted on 04/20/2011

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@ Kati ~ Actually, that's what they are saying the problem is. Criminals will find an accomplice who doesn't have a record to go buy them a gun, but most of the time they are with them to pick it out. So, they want to crack down on one person picking a gun and another buying it. Or those with known criminal accomplices to have a harder time buying a gun.

I'm completely with you on making stricter laws and requiring more training. I'm also completely with you in saying that schools aren't a place for guns unless it's for security or police.
I really wasn't trying to be controversial. I was just saying that a lot of the guns aren't stolen from private, legal owners, even though that's what a lot of people think.

Dana - posted on 04/20/2011

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Tracey, you have to pass a course for a hunting license but, I don't think you do to just own a gun. Which is rather backwards.

Johnny - posted on 04/20/2011

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Guns being used for hunting purposes and self-defense in the wilderness are not even in the same ballpark as concealed carry in populated areas. This idea is ridiculous. I have no problem with people owning firearms. But if you aren't driving to the forest or on your way to the shooting range, they should always be locked in a cabinet with the ammunition elsewhere. And even more preferably, at a local storage facility. No one needs to be roaming the streets or campuses with a firearm, except maybe the police.

Tracey - posted on 04/20/2011

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Just out of interest, when people get guns in USA do they have to pass a proficiency or safety course?

Tracey - posted on 04/20/2011

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Why would a person ever need a gun in a classroom? My pupils are only 6 (and are obviously way too young have a gun) but considering the attitude and behavioural problems we see, if they did have guns we would probably get shot 20 times a day, or do you have to sign a form saying you are a good guy and promise to only shoot bad people?

Jenni - posted on 04/20/2011

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Exactly Nikki. Canada has similar laws to Australia. Guns are primarily issued for hunting and gaming purposes only. We have roughly 1/4 the deaths (from guns) per capita as the US.

They are issued for 'protection' in the US. Yet, look at the statistics. Who exactly are they protecting?



We are pretty high on the list as well but if the US banned hand guns. I believe our rates of death by guns would go down as well. There wouldn't be so many slipping across our border.

Nikki - posted on 04/20/2011

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More guns is NEVER the answer. I will never understand the obsession in the US to bear arms. I can understand if you are faced with the scary arsed animals you have over there, but other than that not a fan.



I have never in my life seen a hand gun because they are illegal in Australia. Shot guns are not but there are very strict conditions as to who can own them and they have to be in locked storage.



America's firearm related deaths are about 15 times higher than in Australia (that's taking into consideration the population difference) So it's not like it never happens here, but since our gun control laws were implemented the percentage of firearm related deaths has reduced by 47% in 10 years (1991-2001) So no, more guns is clearly not the answer.

Rosie - posted on 04/19/2011

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where'd the drug dealer get it? i'd gather it wasn't through legal channels most of the time.:)

Amber - posted on 04/19/2011

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Yes, but that gun that was obtained illegally wasn't stolen from a citizen who owned it legally. Those are what ATF refers to as "Straw purchases" where one criminals has purchased the weapon to give to another criminal.

Rosie - posted on 04/19/2011

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i've seen other statistics amber. i've got one article saying 40%, another saying 37%, yours saying 15%, i have another one that says 81%.
i actually tend to believe the 81% figure the most. just because you aren't stealing when you are doing a drug deal for a gun, doesn't mean you aren't obtaining a gun illegally. http://homemadedefense.blogspot.com/2009...

Amber - posted on 04/19/2011

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@ Jennifer~ I agree, but the laws need to be tightened on the people who sell them. There is a long list of those who aren't supposed to own guns, but the dealers aren't checking to see if they shouldn't.

Stifler's - posted on 04/19/2011

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That is ridonkulous if you ask me. More guns is definitely NOT the answer.

Amber - posted on 04/19/2011

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"Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception.

An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...

He says that most guns that criminals have are obtained by having an accomplice buy it for them or a corrupt gun dealer.

Mentally ill/unstable people are not supposed to be able to own weapons, but there aren't good controls in place to keep them from owning them. Those laws do need to be tightened!

Rosie - posted on 04/19/2011

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no i understand guns have their place in society, with trained professionals. i just don't feel guns serve any purpose for just any tom dick or harry. i get a little divided on this in my head because i CAN see how a normal regular person who lives out in the boonies needs a gun to keep a bear away, or mountain lion. i also see that statistics show that most criminals get their guns from people who have obtained those guns legally, either by stealing the gun, or the gun gets given to someone for doing a favor, then it gets passed along again to a criminal. or that more suicides happen in houses that have guns.

i guess i would just like to see stricter regulations on who can actually have a gun. make them understand that giving their guns away as a form of payment isn't a good idea, and they need to keep them locked up, unloaded.

my state doesn't have much crime, but recently we had a police officer shot and killed. first time in 25 years a policeman has been kiled here, so it's been big news. anywho, the man who killed him was mentally unstable and had a criminal record. yet somehow he was able to legally own a large amount of weapons.
the man who shot gabrielle giffords had a history of mental instability as well. why are all these crazies able to get guns?

Amber - posted on 04/19/2011

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I'm Pro-gun, live in a gun-y place, and think it's a bad idea. I don't have a problem with civilians having guns, but college campuses are too emotional for it to be safe.
Plus...how many people are sober on campuses at any given time? Drunk guy+ gun = BAD.

Not all civilians are inexperienced with weapons though. Think about all of those who have been in military service positions; they actually have more combat training than police officers, but are considered civilians when not active. Plus, members of the military are required to be in healthy physical condition and run regularly...so they are less likely to be winded while trying to protect you :)
Just a thought....

Dana - posted on 04/19/2011

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Yeah, as far as the OP, I think it's asking for trouble and obviously it'll never happen either.

Lady Heather - posted on 04/19/2011

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Nah, it's just because you're sane. I live in a really gun-y place and I think it's nuts.

Jenni - posted on 04/19/2011

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uhh. Maybe It's just that I'm not from a gun culture but this sorta sounds like a bad idea. :s



and no I'm not completely anti-gun. I understand they sometimes serve a very important purpose.

Jocelyn - posted on 04/19/2011

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Hell fucking no!
Guns (held by civilians) have NO place on campus.
It boggles my mind that ANY campus would allow this.

Dana - posted on 04/19/2011

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Really though, getting rid of guns is a complete joke. It's not going to happen. Nor should it happen.

Lady Heather - posted on 04/19/2011

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Just need to know - do you have a problem with forestry workers defending themselves against grizzly attack? Or you willing to give up all paper and wood products so that nobody has to do those jobs? Or would you be willing to take on a grizzly with a knife?

I know this has nothing to do with conceal carry permits, but I think someone who wants all guns gone hasn't really thought the whole thing through. I remember seeing this show on a cop who lives up around Churchill, Manitoba. They have polar bears there. Frigging somebody has to have a gun. It's not like you WANT to shoot a polar bear, but if there's a polar bear going after a kid, well...would you prefer your kid got eaten by a bear? I wouldn't. They aren't all cuddly like baby Knut.

Lady Heather - posted on 04/19/2011

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I also don't understand why the average untrained citizen thinks they are equipped to do the job of a trained police officer. Not that all cops are the bees knees or anything, but I'm pretty sure I'd know who I would choose to come to my aid in the case of an emergency. It wouldn't be joe schmo who's just spent some time at the range. I could carry a gun all I want, I certainly don't feel like I'd be prepared to take control of a situation like a mass shooting.

Rosie - posted on 04/19/2011

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while i dont' think it's going to be the people with permits that are going to go shoot up a place, the idea of guns at all make me freak out.
if we got rid of guns, there would be less guns for the wackos to get ahold of.

Lady Heather - posted on 04/19/2011

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I don't think I would want my name, age and location advertised if I had a concealed carry permit. It's not really concealed anymore is it?

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