What do you think of the new islamic center/mosque at ground zero in NY?

Sharon - posted on 08/22/2010 ( 83 moms have responded )

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I'm against it.



Its a slap in the face to the people died in the name of islamic terrorism. We killed you, destroyed lives, put an emotional scar on all of the United States and in the hearts of americans and now we'll crown the scar with a great symbol of our religion.



I wonder if the peaceful islamic feel that its a peace offering or a bandaid or a sign of "see bad things happened but we can still do this and everything is ok." They somehow see it a "no big deal" but the rest of us don't. I'm sick of the whinging about how they need to be allowed to this in the name of religious freedom and proof of a religious acceptance.



Proof of religious acceptance happens everyday that we don't burn a mosque or tabernacle or synagogue down. That statement doesn't read quite right to me but I'll be danged if I can say why - I hope you guys understand what I mean.

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

~Jennifer - posted on 08/22/2010

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There has been a Mosque 4 blocks away from the WTC / Ground Zero since 1970.....

I suppose 'we' should make them move out?

...and while we're at it.....
...let's burn all of the christian churches in Salem, Massachusetts.
Let's make sure that there are no licensed Japanese pilots in the USA, b/c we all know what they did @ Pearl Harbor.
Let's make sure there's no German business owners running establishments in close proximity to any synogauges.
Koreans aren't allowed to own dogs.

Let's just take away everyone's rights to their guaranteed freedoms because someone of their same race, religion or homeland did something truly awful.
Fuck the Constitution, we'll just pull it out when we need to prove our own point to someone we refuse to agree with.

Barbara - posted on 08/22/2010

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-It is not at all at ground zero, it's actually blocks away in an old Burlington Coat Factory.

-It's not a Mosque.

-It's not being built by terrorists, it's being built by Muslim people, from America. Americans. With the whole freedom of religion thing. Guess what? Muslims were murdered at the trade center along with Christians, Jews and all the rest.

If we start saying people don't have the same right to religious freedoms that the rest of us enjoy, how are we better than the terrorists?

Lucy - posted on 08/25/2010

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Christina, your argument makes no sense at all.

If you believe that mosques should not be built in the vicinity of a site where an extremist Islamic group committed an atrocity, surely the same rule should be applied to extremist Christian groups.

That means no churches to be built anywhere near the sites of floggings and lynchings by the KKK.

No churches near the town of Waco in Texas because of the action of Koresh.

No churches near the sites where "Army of God" members executed abortion clinic workers and doctors.

No churches near the numerous sites bombed by the IRA in Northern Ireland and the UK.

No Churches near the Atlanta Summer olympics stadium bombed by members of "Christian Identity".

No churches near the site of the Soweto bombings by the same group in SA.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

?? - posted on 08/22/2010

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For all the reasons you don't want to accept.

You call it a slap in the face, they call it building bridges. You call it a sign of they can do whatever and it's ok, they all it a sign of peace and acceptance. You call it poking, they call it moving forward.

I honestly don't have much of an opinion on it. I can understand both sides. But where I stand, seeing it as a bad thing - and people who consider it a bad thing - are the only people who are the issue. You can either grow and heal or you can stay butt hurt over something that CAN be a good thing.

Whatever way you wanna look at it, is your priority.

Sara - posted on 08/27/2010

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Here's what Charlton Heston said at that Littleton rally after Columbine:



This cycle of tragedy-driven hatred must stop, because so much more connects us than that which divides us because tragedy has been, and will always be with us. Somewhere right now, evil people are planning evil things. All of us will do everything meaningful, everything we can do to prevent it, but each horrible act can't become an ax for opportunists to cleave the very Bill of Rights that binds us. America must stop this predictable pattern of reaction. When an isolated, terrible event occurs, our phones ring, demanding that the NRA explain the inexplicable. Why us? Because their story needs a villain. They want us to play the heavy in their drama of packaged grief. To provide riveting programming to run between commercials for cars and cat food.



The dirty secret of this day and age is that political gain and media ratings all to often bloom on fresh graves. I remember a better day, where no one dared politicize or profiteer on trauma. We kept a respectful distance then, as NRA has tried to do now. Simply being silent is so often the right thing to do. But today, carnage comes with a catchy title, splashy graphics, regular promos and a reactionary passage of legislation. Reporters perch like vultures on the balconies of hotels for a hundred miles around. Cameras jockey for shocking angles as news anchors race to drench their microphones with the tears of victims.



Injury, shock, grief and despair shouldn't be brought to you by sponsors. That's pornography. It trivializes the tragedy it abuses. It abuses vulnerable people, and maybe worst of all, it makes the unspeakable seem commonplace. And we're often cast as the villain. That is not our role in American society, and we will not be forced to play it.



As Jon Stewart pointed out in a recent edition of The Daily Show, substitute 9/11 for the Columbine tragedy, substitute the Muslim religion for the NRA, and substitute the First Amendment for the Second Amendment, and Charlton Heston’s words are just as applicable now as they were then - probably even more so.

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Elisabeth - posted on 08/30/2010

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Bit late to this convo. Personally I do not oppose any islamic building, however I also was not personally effected by 9/11 as I did not personally know anyone who lost their lives/livelyhood from the event, although of course I was upset by the loss of life. However can I just say to Christina, wether you oppose it or not, Muslims/islam is not a hate group, who exactly do they hate? It seems to me more like you are the one with the hate problem. And with all this 'disrespectful to the dead' you are claiming, don't you think calling those who have passed an 'ass-load' a bit disrespectful. I hope when I move on noone calls me an assload or catagorises me as that. Just a thought.

Isobel - posted on 08/29/2010

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I really wish people would stop calling this proposed centre a mosque. It is no more a Mosque than the YMCA is a church. (YMCA stands for Young Men's Christian Association)



It will be a centre where Muslims can connect with each other, get counseling, excercise...whatever...and because Muslims NEED to pray 5 times a day, YES there is a prayer centre.



Can you imagine having to kneel on the ground on the streets of Manhattan 5 times a day to pray (and enduring the scorn that your prayer must bring).



If you stop them from building this CENTRE, you are not really an American. You do not truly stand for the principals that your country was founded upon.



And as for the comparison to a shrine to Hitler at Auschwitz, the true comparison would be a shrine to Osama Bin Laden outside Ground Zero...which I have not heard of any plans to create.

Tanya - posted on 08/29/2010

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Should we get rid of all the churches in any areas where witches were burned?

Christina - posted on 08/29/2010

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I am appalled at opposition regarding the community center near Ground Zero. I suppose that freedom of religion is only granted in some cases. Perhaps those cases are only in circumstances where believers do not offend the sensibilities of the US public or commit human atrocities.

But, then again, I can recall many acts of terrorism that were committed by rogue sects of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the name of honoring their religions. Some of these were on US soil or harmed Americans. Waco, Texas. The bombing of the US embassy in Lebanon. The west bank in Israel.

Every member of every religion is not a paragon of virtue. Therefore, to state that every member of every religion should be punished is irresponsible to the tenements of the principles on which our country was founded.

I seem to remember something in the Constitution regarding freedom of religion.

I lived in Washington DC when the plane crashed into the Pentagon. I attended the memorial service for one of teacher that was killed in the crash. I currently live about 2 hours away from the site of the PA plane crash. I know people who lost loved ones in Ground Zero and who were actually injured in the Pentagon. The mental and emotional pain endures. I remember the screaming that occurred the day as me and my co-workers watched the planes crashing into the twin towers and the pentagon. I remember the DC subways crowded with people and people walking home - sometimes 15-20 miles that day. I cried and cried and still cannot watch footage. It was a horrible experience for those who lived that day.

However, I also realize that terrorism does not have a face, a religion, or a name. Terrorism is a political process and statement. Perhaps this community center is also a political entity. I don't know. But the opposition to the community center should not focused on the facts that it is an Islamic center. Perhaps everyone's outrage should be focused on a political and media system that is using our emotions to cloud the issue at hand: we are a country that is still in fear for our lives.

Rosie - posted on 08/28/2010

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why is it so horrible a spot for them to pick? what about islam is it that makes you uncomfortable with this? do you think it's going to be a command center for terrorist actions or something?

so let me get this straight....you don't want to get rid of a terrorist command center, you just want to move it somewhere away from ground zero? awesome....

Heather - posted on 08/27/2010

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Personally, if this is really going to be an outreach center when people of ALL religions can come to learn about each other, I think it will be great. It's become a point of contention because people WANT it to be an issue. IMO it will be a HUGE responsibility for the muslim people who run this center to make sure radicalls and terrorists don't infultrate there and that it remains a true outreach center. I'm personally a Christian, but I know some true muslims who love all people and who are role models to all faiths. We worship the same God and many of our principals model each other. I think Christians in New York should be working WITH the muslims to create this outreach center instead of working against them. That would truly show growth and healing in that city.

Krista - posted on 08/27/2010

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Christina, if you believe that all of Islam is a "hate group" then there is really no reasoning with you about this, is there?

Jenni - posted on 08/27/2010

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No one stopped the NRA led by spokesman Charlton Heston from holding rallies in Littleton after the Columbine shooting or in Flint after the Buell Elementary School shooting.

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I'm an atheist, and I think it's a little f'd up! No, all Muslims are not to blame for 9/11. But would it be ok to put a gun shop across from Columbine? All gun owners are not responsible for the shooting there. It doesn't have anything to do with placing blame and everything to do with the fact that the families of those who were killed deserve a little respect. Say there was a serial killer called the "cross killer" who left a cross with each of his victims. I doubt the families of the victims would be very comfortable with crosses hanging on the graves. No, all people who wear crosses aren't killers. But the crosses would nonetheless dredge up all kinds of horrible thoughts for the victims' families. It's the same with the 9/11 victims' families. They don't want those horrible thoughts dredged up every time they visit ground zero. They go there out of respect to those that they lost, to try to make peace with what happened. How are they supposed to do that when they're staring at a mosque?

Ntombi - posted on 08/26/2010

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My take on this is, the Muslim people in New York are not the people responsible for 9/11. I am a South African. Our icon is Nelson Mandela, I hope you have heard of him. He is one of the worlds staesman. Please google him. He was in prison for more thatn 27yrs, fighting for the liberation of black people in .S.A. he came out and preached forgiveness. This was to the dismay of his political allies in his organisation ANC and all black South African. If Nelson Mandela, Gandhi and Marin Luther King can forgive their persecutors, surely anybody can. Crimes were carried out in the name of Ala but I dobt if Mohammed himself will approve of this. Many wars are fought in the name of religion but it doesn't mean they are right. Look at the wars in Ireland etc.

Jenni - posted on 08/25/2010

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Christina,
American media is so brain-washing and full of propaganda. Did you fail to catch the news about the WHITE, anit-government, pastor of the extremist's group the "apocolyptic christians" who delievered a bomb to a black diversity officer, Don Logan, on May 10, 2010. Unlike Faisal Shahzad the pakistani who attempted to bomb time square on May 1, 2010 the bomb actually DID detonate. Funny, I bet no one who watches Fox News knows about that! Speaking of Fox News are they just plain evil or plain stupid? I'll go with the latter. Fox News who have been spittling their ignorant objections to the Islamic Community Center include that it is receiving funding from Saudi Prince, Alwaleed Bin Talal. Bin Talal has also been implicated by Fox News of funding terrorists. Now here's where it gets really friggin' stupid....
Alwaleed Bin Talal is also part owner of FOX NEWS!
Methinks the newscasters better check the signature on the back of their checks before they start spewing their bigotry, hate-mongering and fear-invoking news.

Sara - posted on 08/25/2010

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"I don't believe that hate groups should have a right to their own worship place near wherever they killed people b/c of their beliefs"

So the entire Islamic religion is now a hate group? All muslims are terrorists? That'll be news to a few people I know.

Muslims are not a hate group. Sheesh.

Johnny - posted on 08/24/2010

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Wow, the intolerance of the Islamic faith just astounds me. I'm intolerant of all faiths, but at least I don't tell people that they shouldn't build worship centres and prayer rooms wherever the hell they please.

I guess now that hating gays is becoming passe people have to move on to a new target group. People make me totally sick.

I completely and totally agree with Jenny. The whole argument is bullshit. And I'm sick and tired of hearing about all the 9/11 survivors/families that are opposed, because plenty have absolutely no problem with it at all whatsoever. My cousin was working in WTC Building 7 that day. Until 3 weeks before the attack he had been taking his Securities course in Tower 2. He lost many friends that day and has never been the same (not entirely a bad thing, but I digress). He is totally furious at this travesty of an issue that ignorant morons are imagining. He came through for a visit last week and I ran into him at my GG's place. Obviously, the Burlington Coat Factory mosque was a big topic of discussion, and apparently virtually the only water cooler conversation in his office right now. He said most people have no problem with it, but a few are opposed. Now, he is a very right wing guy (we have our differences big time) but he said that he has yet to hear a reasonable argument to support stopping the construction.

I agree, I'm waiting to hear for one real and good reason that it shouldn't be built. I am not an American, so your constitution means jack shit to me (although I do rather admire it as a document, very well written). However, the one argument against it that is just burning me up is the idea that "why should America let Muslims build mosques because Saudi Arabia doesn't let Christians build churches". Ha ha. So does that mean that Americans feel that they should strive to be more like Saudi Arabia. I thought you all wanted to be the "shining city on the hill"? Guess not.

C. - posted on 08/24/2010

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"So the recent poll showing that a majority of Manhattites are in favour of it...? I'm guessing the polling company talked to a few more people than you did."

I'm sure the talked to more people that you spoke to as well.. But I have seen on the news where there are MANY people against it. It really has nothing to do with the people that I have personally spoken to, I was just making a point. One that you helped point out with that exact statement above.

Jennifer, I think you are missing the point. I don't believe that hate groups should have a right to their own worship place near wherever they killed people b/c of their beliefs. I believe people should have a right to their own religion, yes, BUT I think there should be government intervention when it becomes a hate group and not something loving. You do realize that there are still terrorists in the US that have not been caught yet, right? And putting a Mosque near Ground Zero where Al-Qaeda could come and worship as well.. That is a slap in the face. And if you don't believe me about there still being terrorists here that haven't been caught.. What about the whacko that shot up Fort Hood? OH! GUESS WHAT??? He WAS a MUSLIM, too!!!! Want to spout off some more? Go right ahead..

Krista - posted on 08/24/2010

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Krista, ALL THE PEOPLE that I have talked to that disagree with it.. Which is quite a few, and include people that are both Conservative and Liberal, have never talked about New Yorkers that way b/c most of them are FROM NY!

So the recent poll showing that a majority of Manhattites are in favour of it...? I'm guessing the polling company talked to a few more people than you did.

Jenny - posted on 08/24/2010

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I call bullshit. It has nothing to do with "where" it is being built. No one really gives a shit about a random abandonded building in New York. The old Burlington Coat Factory is not hallowed ground, if it was a porn store going in there few would bat an eye. It's the mosque period and they've been protested across the country. People are afriad of Muslims and few want to admit that makes them prejudice or bigoted.

Jenni - posted on 08/24/2010

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Christina,
I think the point being missed here is... It's not the Islamic people who attacked US government buildings. It was an extremist group. It's kinda like blaming all the German 'people' for the halocaust.
Al-Queda the "militant islamic group" who was responsible for the 911 attacks is a terrorist organization that just happens to be from the islamic religion. Think of them as the Klu Klux Klan who just happens to be christian. Would you say the KKK should represent the entire Christian religion?

C. - posted on 08/24/2010

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"they're pretty damned pissed off that all of these "outsiders" are going on about "sacred ground" when most of them are usually only too frigging happy to insult New Yorkers as latte-drinking, elitist liberals who aren't "real" Americans anyway."

Krista, ALL THE PEOPLE that I have talked to that disagree with it.. Which is quite a few, and include people that are both Conservative and Liberal, have never talked about New Yorkers that way b/c most of them are FROM NY!

C. - posted on 08/24/2010

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"All of them ****ALL OF THEM*** would have told you that you're pissing all over the very foundation of America by disagreeing with this center."

Jenn, I don't disagree with it being built.. I disagree with WHERE it is being built. There's a huge difference there. I wouldn't want anyone to deny me of my religion, so I don't deny others of the right to their religion. I just think it's wrong that they want to build it where Muslim extremists attacked the US and killed so many innocent people. There's nothing wrong with that point of view at all.

Krista - posted on 08/24/2010

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If it's ANYWHERE NEAR GROUND ZERO, IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE TO ANYONE THAT HAS LOST A LOVED ONE ON 9/11.

Define "anywhere near", please. Because I have YET to hear an opponent of this centre state clearly WHAT distance from the WTC site would be acceptable.

And Christina, yay for you that you've "passed through" Manhattan before. So have I. It means nothing. What IS meaningful is that the majority of people who actually LIVE in Manhattan are in favour of this centre, and from the several with whom I've spoken, they're pretty damned pissed off that all of these "outsiders" are going on about "sacred ground" when most of them are usually only too frigging happy to insult New Yorkers as latte-drinking, elitist liberals who aren't "real" Americans anyway.

Jenni - posted on 08/24/2010

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It's basically like if the "God Hates America" christian extremists blew up a the White House. Would you be against it if they decided to build a Christian Church on Pensylvania Ave?

Jenny - posted on 08/24/2010

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It was also men responsible for the attack. I hearby proclaim men are violent and have no place in America. They murder, they rape and they do not represent American values. Allowing men to build anything near 9/11 is spitting on the graves of those who lost their lives.

~Jennifer - posted on 08/24/2010

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It's a slap in the face of American (supposed) values to deny it.



....next time you 'pass through'.....take some time to stop and look around.

pfffffffffffft.

C. - posted on 08/24/2010

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I've lived in NY and we've passed through NYC/Manhattan before. HAVE been, thank you. If it's ANYWHERE NEAR GROUND ZERO, IT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE TO ANYONE THAT HAS LOST A LOVED ONE ON 9/11.

~Jennifer - posted on 08/24/2010

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it's not ******* AT******** Ground Zero.



Methinks that those of you that complain....have never been to NY / Manhattan.



=/



*edit to add:



I lost 43......forty fucking three people I knew .....on 9/11.



All of them ****ALL OF THEM*** would have told you that you're pissing all over the very foundation of America by disagreeing with this center.

C. - posted on 08/24/2010

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Sharon, I agree with you 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot believe they want to do something like that. It IS a slap in the face to everyone who lose someone at Ground Zero. No, not all Muslims are terrorists, but Muslims DID steer the planes into the Twin Towers. A HUGE slap in the face. I think it's ridiculous.



If there are so many Mosques already in NY, then WHY do they NEED to build one AT GROUND ZERO??? It's not necessary at all and I think it's disrespectful of the people that lost their lives there.



You want to build a Mosque? Build one! Just don't do it where some terrorist Muslims killed an ass-load of innocent people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jessica - posted on 08/24/2010

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Lol, I think religion is defined by it's rule book yes and I think most religious people would agree with me, mainly because we wouldn't really be able to define each seperate religion else. But I also believe that religion and faith in a deity are 2 seperate things and that a 'deity' is defined by the followers.



I'm not sure I'm explaining myself too well here so I'm just gonna drop it lol.



It was good 'sparring' with you. Never used that term like this before lol.

Lucy - posted on 08/24/2010

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Ha ha ha, Jessica, this is why I love the debating community... we've been merrily discussing what seemed like opposing views back and forth and come to basically the same conclusion!

I think what we disagree on is actually minor semantics. You think that the "rule book" is what defines a religion, I think it is defined by what people are inspired to do by the "rule book". We can easily agree to disagree on that one, huh?

Thanks for a great debate, it's nice to find a good sparring partner! :)

Tara - posted on 08/24/2010

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I really see this as a case of a whole sect of people being painted with the same paintbrush. We must be careful in todays world, and learn from our past that it is not fair nor right to become self righteous in our outlook on other people.
Theories about 9/11 abound. Not everyone believes that islamic people are evil, but demonize them we have. If I were America, I would stand behind the right to religious freedom. Because really it's not about whether you agree with that religion its about the right to have it. Pu the shoe on the other foot. If a Christian fundamentalist group decided to commit suicide and take a whole bunch of Walmart shoppers with them, many people would place crosses and Christian symbols there. But it would not be seen the same way. Religious freedom for all religions not just the ones you like. And separation from innocent followers from those who abuse their religion or twist it to their own devices.

Krista - posted on 08/24/2010

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This is happening everywhere. That's why I say that this has NOTHING to do with the site of the WTC. People just don't want any mosques built, anywhere.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th...

How long will it take before some of these concerned protesters start burning down existing mosques? Hell, yesterday, a radio DJ actually suggested the idea of a national registry of Muslims.

The rhetoric that I am hearing is frightening. It is all too familiar. I fear that the U.S. is on the brink of entering a very dark period in its history if it does not turn away from this perpetual hatred.

Jessica - posted on 08/24/2010

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Oh, crossed wires here lol. I have no problem with whoever building whatever, wherever they like as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on society and, in this case, funded out of there own pocket. I did state this in my first post on this thread.

However, Islam itself is not a peaceful religion, it's followers may be, as hypocritical as that is, but Islam in and of itself is not a religion of peace.

And the intolerance and hate in both religions are not small and specific. They both declare that anyone outside of their religion and/or disagreeing with their views are evil and need to be killed. This message is abundantly clear throughout both the bible and qu'ran.

As I have said before, practice whatever religion you want to, I am not going to hold an entire race responsible for what a few psychopaths did. But the majority of followers being peaceful does not automatically make the religion itself peaceful.

Lucy - posted on 08/24/2010

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Jessica- I can totally see what you are saying, and if you look at any other posts I have made regarding Christianity and religion in general, I think in broad terms we are actually on the same page. But, I think that you are missing my point in relation to this specific thread.

Yes- all religious texts are full of contradiction.
Yes- due to their historical context, some passages are incongruent with the whole, and clash with modern values.

But, the important thing in relation to 9/11 or any other terrorist act committed in the modern age is to ask what most of those who follow the religion in question draw from the text, and carry over into their way of life. The vast majority of western Muslims draw from the Qu'ran the message that the pursuit of peace is paramount. Above all else. As this is the belief of the vast majority of western Muslims, including those who are elders and Imams instructing others, I feel it can legitimately be called a religion of peace.

There will always be those, in any religion, who will focus their energies on a small, specific element from their religious text to the exclusion of all else, to further their own political or personal agenda. In this I would include Christians who focus on homosexuality as a sin in order to persecute people, as well as Muslims who use the Qu'ran's requirement for modest dress to insist that women where the burqa. It also includes the terrorists involved in 9/11. But these few should not be seen as representative of a community of millions living peacefully.

Iris - posted on 08/24/2010

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I'm not against it. Many Muslims died in the attack and I feel that the extremists do not speak for the whole religion. If that was the case than I guess Hitler might have spoke for the whole Christianity. How wrong does that sound to a Christian?!

We are not talking about building a Mecca in the middle of Ground Zero, if that was the case I'd understand the argument. It's a center and it's two blocks away. So why the connection to Ground Zero? It is not on the site so what is the issue?

Jessica - posted on 08/24/2010

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I'm sorry lucy, but I still can't agree with that. It's like saying 'Oh but look, the catholic church does so much to help and support in the AIDS crisis in Africa'. Yea, never mind the fact that they are playing a MAJOR role in keeping the AIDS virus in circulation by not allowing their members to practice safe sex.

It doesn't matter that they promote *some* peace. They still still promote, in this day and age, intolerance and hate towards those who don't agree with their views. Homosexuals, for e.g., Apostates, for e.g., Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT).

It also doesn't matter that it was written 2000 years ago, in another time and place. The bible and the qu'ran states that it is the true, infallible, unerring word of god and it should always be seen as so regardless of the 'times' or 'political situation' you live in.

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

I think this has to be my favourite.

Lucy - posted on 08/24/2010

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Jessica- Yep, there are plenty of chunks in the bible (and the Qu'ran) that are at odds with more modern values. Both religious texts were written by numerous people over a pretty long period of time, so i tend to see the sections you refer to as a product of the political and social situation of the time they were written.

As someone who does not follow either religion, I am sometimes confused by the way Christians and Muslims focus on some teachings and disregard others. Who decides what is important and what isn't? So I agree with you about a certain level of hypocrisy in each religion. However, as a Pagan, I am pretty grateful for the fact that the vast majority of Christians and Muslims DO choose to disregard the more violent and hateful passages, or I would be in for stoning myself! If you look at the Bible or the Qu'ran, the sections that extoll violence and hate are still very much out numbered by the over riding values of peace, compassion and (particularly in the Qu'ran) the principle of hospitality and care for strangers and those who are different from ourselves.

In my opinion, it is the few who choose to focus on the darker aspects of a religious text and disregard the stronger, positive messages that should incur our anger and sanctions. Not the vast majority who, although perhaps hypocritical from your point of view, choose to draw the more numerous positive aspects from a religious text and live peacefully.

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totally with you... generally i dont discriminate against religions other than my own.. not my place.. so yes a huge slap in the face i think.. i feel for those families of 911 victims they have a right to feel betrayed

Jessica - posted on 08/23/2010

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Ok, again, I have to totally disagree. Take the christian god for e.g. The bible tells us that it is the word off god. The bible tells us that god's word is infallible. That gods word it TRUE! So why is it that the religious are able to pick and choose, what they believe to be true and just pass over the monstrous parts. The bible tells us that it is and always will be the true word of god, meaning that just because times have changed, it doesn't mean we can chop out the bits we like and discard the rest. In this case, this would mean I will have to be stoned to death as right now *gasp* I am wearing cloth made from two different materials. I will be going STRAIGHT to hell because I am bi-sexual. My son, who IS a blessing in my life, is automatically born into sin (WTF? What kind of god punishes the innocent for ever because of what one idiot does?), I am a single mother. According to the bible, as soon as I had my son we should have both been stoned to death, along with his father. I will look up the specific passages in the morning and will look for some from the qu'ran. It's late and I'm tired.

Lucy - posted on 08/23/2010

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Jessica- I appreciate what you say about Islam and Christianity. I follow neither, so am not defending either from a personal perspective.

In this context I think it appropriate to look at the over riding message of each religious text in it's totality and the way this translates into general modern practice, rather than focussing on isolated passages written by individual scholars which are a product of their moment in history. The fact is that the vast majority of mosques and churches in the western world preach, above all, the ideals of peace, love and compassion, and expect their faithful to live by these ideals. Those who live up to this requirement should not be punished and restricted by our response to the actions of the few who don't.

Jenny - posted on 08/23/2010

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l beleive religious buildings are a waste of money and resources. I could think of much better ways to spend a couple of hundred million dollars. Affordable housing comes to mind.

I also am not a big beleiver in symbolism. Why can that site only be used in certain ways because people were killed there? I don't get it. In 1000 years we won't have room for housing because everything will be wall to wall memorials. Perhaps the greatest memorial could be rising above and shutting down the culture of fear.

Either you support freedom of organised religion or you don't. If you do, hands down, the mosque gets built. If you'd rather a theocracy or the right to pick and choose which religions have rights than you do not support the constitution. Freedom is both a gift and a sacrifice, we may not always like the results.

Jessica - posted on 08/23/2010

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"Islam is at it's very heart a peaceful religion"

Islam is not a peaceful religion. The Qu'ran is riddle with passages about killing infidels, apostates and anything/body that opposes Islam. The same goes with the bible. Both books are filled with justifications for murder, genocide and a whole host of other atrocities. People, especially the religious, choose to ignore these passages and proclaim their religion to be one of peace when it is just not true.

Lucy - posted on 08/23/2010

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A shrine to Nazism near to Auschwitz is a totally inappropriate analogy.

Nazism is, in itself, a hateful ideology full of violence and prejudice. Islam is not. Anyone who has taken the time to read the Qu'ran will know that Islam is at it's very heart a peaceful religion. Virtually all the central values of Islam mirror those of Christianity.

Those who committed the atrocity of 9/11 are not recognised by your average, peace loving Muslim as part of the same religion or ideology as them. The wider Muslim community should not be punished or subjected to restrictions on their liberty as a result of 9/11 any more than the rest of us should. They had nothing to do with it.

it's like saying churches or Christian centres should not be allowed in any country where the crusaders invaded... or where any witch burnings took place...or in states where "Christian" extremists have committed evil acts (such as Waco in Texas)

If we started down that road, there would'nt be any churches, mosques or temples of any kind left standing. Is that okay with you?

Sara - posted on 08/23/2010

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And I don't think it's fair to compare Nazism with Islam, either. Being a Nazi, which was a political affiliation, is not even remotely the same as a religion. I understand the point you're trying to make and while I disagree with you, I can respect where you're coming from. I think a better comparison would be between Christianity (HItler and most Nazis were, in fact, self-identified Chrisitians) and building churches at Auschwitz. And you know what? There are Chrisitian churches built at the site of many former concentration camps, and no one has a problem with that.

Krista - posted on 08/23/2010

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I guess I would just like to know where the line is. If this was three blocks away, would it be okay? What about four?

It's not AT the WTC site. And the crazy thing is: a majority of Manhattan residents support it.

Oh, and just an aside, can someone explain to me what is particularly sacred about Tennessee?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

Sara - posted on 08/23/2010

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To sum up my feelings on the issue, I just think that to use such a wide brush and paint all Muslims the same (terrorists or supportive of terrorism) is a disservice and absoutely goes against everything they say this country is built upon. Crazy people committed horrible acts that day, why 9 years later are we still condemning an entire group of people for the acts of a few?

Sharon - posted on 08/23/2010

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ok so take hitler out of the equation - what if they built a shrine to nazism(is that a word) at auschwitz?

I'm going to let this one go, I've stated how I feel and why - you guys have your opinions - and they are opinions - no more based on fact than mine - to me this is just wrong. This act of defiance & hatred and spit in your face attitude does not bode well for pursuing general acceptance of islam. < shrugs shoulders >

Brittney - posted on 08/23/2010

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Sara B. I love the video! The parallel between the NRA and Columbine and this topic is perfect.

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