What's more important Medical treatment or religion?

Tracey - posted on 11/28/2011 ( 25 moms have responded )

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Muslim medical students boycotting lectures on evolution... because it 'clashes with the Koran

Muslim students, including trainee doctors on one of Britain's leading medical courses, are walking out of lectures on evolution claiming it conflicts with creationist ideas established in the Koran.

Professors at University College London have expressed concern over the increasing number of biology students boycotting lectures on Darwinist theory, which form an important part of the syllabus, citing their religion.

Similar to the beliefs expressed by fundamentalist Christians, Muslim opponents to Darwinism maintain that Allah created the world, mankind and all known species in a single act.

Steve Jones emeritus professor of human genetics at university college London has questioned why such students would want to study biology at all when it obviously conflicts with their beliefs.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...

Should they be forced to attend the lectures, should they be failed for not attending?

Should I as a patient have the right to refuse treatment from these doctors in favour of one who has attended all the lectures, or I am showing religious discrimination by rejecting the muslim doctor?

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Mary - posted on 11/29/2011

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Honestly, I think it's ridiculous that whole thing is even an issue. At it's core, it doesn't even need to be about religion.

Someone chooses to go to school in order to receive an education in a particular field. The school determines what specific courses one needs to satisfactorily complete in order to obtain the desired degree. To be clear...the student is not the one in the position to determine what information is or is not necessary for successful completion of the program. The student is given the requirements for graduation. The onus for meeting the requirements is entirely up to them.

Enrollment in any university is voluntary. Which degree you chose to pursue is voluntary as well. What is not negotiable is the criteria that any and all students must meet in order to be awarded a degree. If a student finds something in the course content objectionable, offensive, or even just pointless - well, they are certainly entitled to their opinion on the subject. However, it does not negate the fact that they must still master the content in order to complete the degree.

I think both the objecting students AND the faculty are trying to create some bruhahaha over religion where none needs to exist. The syllabus is what it is. If some student, for whatever reason, chooses to skip a lecture and the required reading - that is entirely their choice and their right. If they cannot then pass the exams given, or produce a passing grade in the subject, then they cannot obtain the same degree as their classmates who did. The reason behind their failure is really immaterial.

Johnny - posted on 11/28/2011

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Evolution is basic biology. No wishing or hoping or praying can change that. Just because some schools fail to teach it is not a reflection on the make up of what it takes to understand biological processes does, it a reflection on a poor education system. An understanding of the development of the human body, how it functions, and how bacteria and viruses change all requires an understanding of the processes of evolution. And by the way, there is no such thing as "macro evolution". That is a term that was made up by intelligent design theologians and has no basis in science.

Johnny - posted on 11/28/2011

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If you can not acccept the absolute basics, then you are probably ill equipped to receive a degree and advance in the world in such a profession. You can not claim to know about biology if you do not know anything about evolution. There are plenty of things to study that need not clash with one's worldview. If they choose not to study the entire syllabus, they should not pass and can either flunk out or transfer to something more befitting their worldview. I would absolutely refuse treatment from a doctor who refused to even learn about the basics of evolution. This whole bullshit choice of ignorance is astounding and horrifying. I can not express eloquently how wrong-headed it is because it boils my blood to such an extent.

And Teresa, if your doctor does not understand the development of the human body, of the bacteria and viruses that attack it, of the growth of cells causing cancer, he would probably be putting you at grave risk. I can not imagine how you would think it was a good idea to be treated by someone who didn't understand basic biology. Would you take your car to be fixed by a mechanic who didn't understand combustion?

Jennifer - posted on 11/28/2011

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Why would listening to a lecture and taking a test (I assume) change their religion? I am a Christian, and sat through MANY classes that stated as fact many things I did not agree with, yeah, sometimes it made me think about things differently, but it did not change my beliefs. If their footing is that shaky, maybe they should examine why.

[deleted account]

We had this issue come up in Michigan with a psychology student who refused to counsel gay students during her coursework because of her religion. She was failed out of the program and is suing for religious discrimination.
As a college professor, I don't care what my students religious beliefs are. If you start citing the Bible instead of the Uniform Commercial Code on one of my exams, I will fail you. The purpose of the course is to learn the material studied, not to make commentary on whether or not you agree with it. If my students fail to attend lectures, regardless of the reasons, they are subject to the discipline listed in the syllabus.

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Jane - posted on 11/29/2011

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I just told my students that they didn't have to believe in evolution, they just have to know it for the test. They should attend all of the lectures. Later they can decide whether or not to "believe," but to be a doctor you need to take all the classes.

Karen - posted on 11/29/2011

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If these students fail due to not attending the lectures, they need to realise it's not due to religious discrimination. They have signed up for a medical degree, praying to what ever god you believe in is not going to cure your patients. As some one said earliar, it would be like a christian doctor refusing to perscibe birth control, or to attend the lectures on it!
If a non muslim student skipped the lectures or walked out, they would be failed. It's should be as simple as that.

Krista - posted on 11/29/2011

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Mary has it exactly right. The religion thing is a red herring. This is all about the fact that if someone chooses to take a course, they must be prepared to study all aspects of that course.

Suzie - posted on 11/29/2011

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I have a degree in biology and i had to attand these lectures. however they would be aginst my religous beliefes. And yes they should be penilized based on leaving a lecture there were many things i had to perticipate in or chose to not do for my belifes but i took the bad grad ( on one asinment as I belived in High school it crossed a line that was a personal line ) but my actions caused any negative effects.

Krista - posted on 11/29/2011

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This image has been going around Facebook, and I love it, because it's such a great analogy for evolution and how all these tiny little changes are almost undetectable, but when you look at things over a VERY long period of time, you see that there HAS been a major change:

http://livinglifewithoutanet.files.wordp...

[deleted account]

"And by the way, there is no such thing as "macro evolution". That is a term that was made up by intelligent design theologians and has no basis in science"

Johnny, you beat me to the bunch. That was exactly what I was going to say.

Tracey - posted on 11/29/2011

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I'm guessing that doctors need some kind of insurance to work? If so should they / do they need to prove they have completed x number of courses / qualifications?

Last time I saw a doctor I was unconsious and not breathing, I didn't care if he worshiped God, Allah, Tinkerbell or the great spaghetti monster because he identified the problem and treated it. However if I knew my GP had beliefs that meant he wouldn't treat me for, or had limited knowledge of certain conditions that could affect me I would choose another doctor.

Becky - posted on 11/28/2011

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Incidentally, how would you even know your Dr. was Muslim, unless they told you that? Their name or skin color doesn't make them a particular religion! My dr. is Caucasian, German (I believe) background. I haven't the foggiest clue what his religious beliefs are or if he has any. As long as he listens to me, shows compassion and is competent and knowledgable in his job, I don't care if he believes in fairies and gnomes!

Becky - posted on 11/28/2011

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If they are not willing to do all the coursework for a class, then they should be penalized for that. You shouldn't get a pass on assignments or lectures because the subject matter conflicts with your religious beliefs. Go, listen, do your work, and then reject it as total bunk if you want to, but don't try to get out of the work. You're not going to go to hell (or wherever Muslims believe they will go) because you listened to a lecture on evolution!
I wouldn't reject a Muslim doctor, for the reasons Johnny stated. Just because he's Muslim doesn't mean he skipped out on half his classes and isn't thoroughly knowledgable about his job. But if I happened to know that my doctor had missed half his classes based on religious beliefs, then yes, I'd probably have some doubts about his abilities.

Johnny - posted on 11/28/2011

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I just also want to respond to the idea of rejecting a Muslim doctor. Not all Muslims are anti-science. Just like many Christians, many Muslims are able to separate science from faith and do not take the word of their holy books as literal truths but as allegories.

My high school biology teacher was married to an Anglican reverend. She was also a lay deacon in the church (which I attended in my teens). She had no problems teaching evolution in biology and never suggested in bible study that it was not "biblical".

Each person can choose whether their own faith forces them to reject science or not. It can't be assumed that all Muslims would do so any more than all Christians or all Jews would.

[deleted account]

Did I say I would want to go to a doctor that doesn't understand basic biology? I was asking a question. I passed basic biology in high school that had nothing whatsoever to do w/ macroevolution (what I would assume these students are against), so I was just asking a question about it.

Carol - posted on 11/28/2011

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If i was their pro. i would fail them and if they complained about it being on religion basis i would state its because you walked out on an important lecture, or i would give them a lower grade. As a patient you can discriminate you aren't under obligation by the law to go to a certian doctor baised on religion, sex, etc. I agree with alot of people who are stating they should be throw out, or how its scary they are using their beleifs to practice medicine.

Hope - posted on 11/28/2011

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It is a little scary. To be a doctor you can not bring your personal opinions or beliefs to work with you. If these students can even put there personal beliefs aside to get through medical school how are the going to be able to practice medicine in a non judgmental way.
Do the work required or fail the coarse, its that simple.

[deleted account]

to me that's kind of like a catholic saying they don't want to take the lectures on birth control because they don't believe in it. i think they should have to take it. every other religion, at least where i am from, has to take all courses in order to be qualified so i don't think they should be exempt from it

[deleted account]

This is probably beyond a stupid question, but what does a lecture on evolution have to do w/ whether or not my doctor can diagnose my illness and prescribe the right medicine... or treat my injury?

My majorly Christian dad (dude seems borderline fanatical at times) was a biology major in college....

Yeah, that's my only input here. I don't really have any input to the OP... brought to you by your friendly, resident quirk. lol

[deleted account]

I think they should be thrown out of the university period. If they're not willing to accept facts with mountains of evidence behind it, I do not think they are capable of being objective in treating a patient. What? Shall they also be allowed to skip the class on germs and simply state that all disease is caused by demons? Ridiculous!

Krista - posted on 11/28/2011

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I think that they should be heavily penalized for not attending. Nobody is requiring that they give up their beliefs. They are simply requiring for them to learn about a viewpoint that doesn't mesh with their beliefs. Why are they so damned afraid of hearing something that doesn't jive with their preexisting worldview?

Personally, if I had the option, I would refuse treatment by ANY doctor who was so closed-minded as to refuse to even LISTEN to something that conflicted with his or her preexisting beliefs. And it has nothing to do with religion -- it's solely about the fact that if I have a doctor, I want him or her to be willing to listen, to be open-minded, to be non-judgmental, and to be willing to think outside the box, if needs be.

Corinne - posted on 11/28/2011

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If you want to be a doctor, you should be studying the whole syllabus not just the bits you believe in. A good understanding of the fundamentals of biology is essential if you are going to study medicine. The mind boggles really. As a dance student (many moons ago) I had to study anatomy and physiology, history of dance, make up application, nutrition, language of dance....as well as learning different dance styles and techniques. Did learning to apply make up make me a better dancer? No, but it was an essential skill that I needed as a proffesional. I guess my point is, Darwinism wouldn't be on the syllabus if it wasn't essential to the end product, a well educated doctor.

[deleted account]

Hi Tracey - there are exams at the end of the year for all medical students - if you don't pass, you don't get to become a doctor. So if you live in a developed country, you can be confident that any qualified doctor has passed their exams and knows what they need to know and has the right skills, regardless of their religion.

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