women and gays in the church. Is it out-dated in its views ?

Sally - posted on 02/11/2012 ( 38 moms have responded )

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The archbishop of canterbury has come out against gay marrige. He is also doing his best to stop women becoming bishops etc.

My question is. Are his views out-dated and do you feel that women should be allowed greater roles within the chuch and do gays have the right to a christan marriage.

I understand for some this will be a reglious question but i really would like to hear what believers and non-believers think.

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Jenni - posted on 02/13/2012

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I think Krista's onto something. I've looked up various articles and stats in previous debates. And the stats from this article correlate with the stats I've read:



http://canadianchristianity.com/news/nat...



So basic summary. Approximately more than 2/3 of Canadians still profess to be Christian. Yet regular church attendance has declined drastically in the last 60 years from about 60% (in the 1940s) to 20% in (the 2000s).



The interesting part is since 1970 the percent of Canadians who identify themselves as Atheist has virtually remained the same (around 7%). So it's not that we're becoming more secular. People still hold some belief in a higher power, and the vast majority in the Christian god.



So what is the reason for the decline? I'm sure there could be a number of theories but the Church is still scratching its head. And I would bet my chickens that at least some of the decrease in attendance could have to do with outdated views in an increasingly more liberal society.

[deleted account]

"am trying to say that if people have a problem because someone is trying to follow the Bible then the church is better without them."



But are they really following the Bible. I'm sure your church doesn't follow it completely. NO church does and that's a good thing. I'm rather glad that they all pick and choose. It would be down right scary if they followed everything in there.

Krista - posted on 02/13/2012

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Personally, I just laugh a bit. I'm always hearing news stories around here from churches that are having to close due to lack of attendance. They're wondering why people are turning away from religion, and yet, during the interview, not ONCE does there seem to be a moment of self-reflection where they ask themselves if maybe, just maybe, they're no longer relevant.



When you hold antiquated views in a world that has moved forward, and then stand there scratching your head wondering why you're being left behind...well, maybe it's time for a bit of introspection.

[deleted account]

I think the church should be able to set any rules it likes for its religion. I also think that people should be strong enough to say, "that's BULL" and walk away from it. Then when they have no one left, the problem is solved.



But seriously, why should they allow this if their religion says its wrong? (just want to point out that I do not agree with them and am generally anti-religon/anti-theist). However it's their club. Their ball and game. I never understood and still don't understand why a gay person woudl want to belong to a religion that for hundreds and hundreds of years openly called for their death. The ONLY thing that has changed to stop that is that society has become more and more secular but the Bible itself hasn't really changed. It still calls male homosexuality an abomination. I have always regarded it as a Jew wanting to be a Nazi or a black man wanting to join the KKK. Why would you want to be part of something that gleefully wants you die and be tormented FOREVER?

[deleted account]

I have never agreed with the idea that women should not teach or lead in the church. I think that is something the ancient patriarchal Hebrews came up with and wrote about and it stuck. I don't think God said that's how it should be. He created Eve as a companion to Adam, not as his slave or a lesser being. Also, Jesus had many women disciples that churches neglect to accept or even mention. These women taught other about Him, so I don't see why it should be banned. Besides, the Bible today is not what was originally written. It has been changed and had books added and removed by the Catholic Church. They just forgot to fix the part that says to change the word of God is blasphemous.



As for homosexuals, I'm torn on this one. Your sexual orientation should not dictate who you can and can't love. I also believe that if you want to marry someone and all that, you should be able to. However, if people are going to go by the Bible, it does say homosexuality is wrong. I don't agree with it, but it IS in there, in the Old Testament. I'm not entirely sure what the restrictions were supposed to be or whatever, but it's there in one of the first five books. So...I don't know what to say on that issue. If the archbishop wants to truly follow the Bible, then I guess if he wants to ban gay marriage in the Catholic Church he can go ahead. I've never liked Catholicism myself, I think it is too restricted and the whole stigma about priests and little boys completely turns me off to it. I may be wrong, but I feel that Catholicism is one thing and every other Christian denomination (ie. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterian, etc.) is considered Protestant. That's why people colonized New England, they wanted to get away from the Catholic religion. Whether I am correct or not, the archbishop or pope or whatever Catholic higher-up person you want to choose has no say in how other Christian denominations view anything. So whatever they do with their religion is for them to deal with, not other religions.



But I do have to say, if he's going to go all militant on women and gays, he needs to go on and read in the Bible where it says thou shalt not have idols or graven images. Catholic churches are among the most decorated churches in the world, and I get the impression that Catholics worship the "virgin" Mary more than they do Jesus Christ and have images of her everywhere and Jesus is still on the cross, which is BS to me. So yeah, take that stuff down too, since people pray to Mary and not Jesus or God, and that's pretty much worshiping an idol since Mary was just a woman.



Which brings me back to women leading. What the heck, they're gonna hold the "virgin" Mary up on a pedestal but still act like women are less than men??? That's BS too...



But I'm not a Catholic, nor am I really much of a Christian. I'm more agnostic than anything. So this is just from me reading the Bible, researching things, and asking Catholic friends.

38 Comments

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Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

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Well, I'm not particularly impressed with nor am I follower of the church. I think if a woman wants to become a Bishop then she should have the right to. An earlier poster stated she couldn't imagine wanting such a thing to add to her responsibilities of Wife and mother. Well, that is her.....not everyone else. Many single women would and could and should be allowed to pursuit such a career.



As far as gay marriage. I see nothing wrong with it. I don't think it is the Gay's that are demoralizing or causing the break down in the institution of marriage but rather it is the unfaithful married individuals in and out of the church that are doing that.



Just because I like to play devils advocate......why would someone WANT a church ceremony if that church is not accepting of you?? One can obtain an officiant that is non denominational and still have a beautiful ceremony.

[deleted account]

Shyla, what parts do you not obey but make an excuse not to? I know that sounds harsher than I'm actually being but I can't think of a better way of asking. For example, do you cut/braid your hair? Do you wear any jewelry? How does your church interpet Jesus's statement that not one jot or tittle of the Mosaic laws shall be put away until ALL things are come to pass (aka the second coming)? Most churches just say that means the stuff that happened then so they can get away with not following the OT except when convenient.

Sally - posted on 02/18/2012

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I agree and have no problem with a church that makes its view clear and belive they should be respected. I don't understand a church thats says yes we will have gay vicars but we won't allow them to marry in the church they serve. We will allow women vicars but we won't allow them to become bishops etc. I am not attacking religion. Im trying my very best to understand

Desiree - posted on 02/17/2012

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Being a Catholic my stance on women being vicars is a moot point as it wont happen anytime in the near future. Besides as a mother and a woman I find I can better serve my community by being just a mother and a woman. I don't need to worry about church policy every time I eet some one new or voice an opinion. Being a Mother and wife is the greatest vocation there is so why on earth would any one want to add anything else to it. As a Priestess I would be at the beck and call of my parishoners and my family would suffer more for it. I already have enough problem holding down a full time job and juggling parenthood. Why on earth would I add the entire neighbourhood as my children at less than what I can give. Nope I think if I were going into the priesthood I would not get married so I could give the best of myself.



As to homosexuals getting married in church well let them, if the church will marry them but if the church frowns on it you can't expect them too. Its not a choice who you are but it is a choice how you choose to believe and lead your life. It is unfair to expect everyone to accept you choices and force everyone to follow. Its also a matter of respect, something that should be earned and can't be earned in forcing people to like you or what you do. I can accept everyone and their choices but I can also accept that they don't have to accept me or my choices. I wasn't put on this earth to be liked by everyone. I was put on this earth to be me.

Sally - posted on 02/17/2012

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@shyla. I admire your believe and though i may not agree with its stance on female vicars etc , my confusion arises from the c.o.e and other such religions who are happy allowing them on one hand and then treating them as 2nd class members on the other. I admire a faith that stands by what it believes to be the word of god. You know where you stand and can make a choice.

I hate it when they pretend to be modern and forward thinking to get members , when their clearly not.

If they followed the bible then most religions would be forgiving,loving and excepting. Does the bible not teach love and kindness. Some horrid things have been done in the name of god( what ever name you choose ) and people still use it as an excuse to this day. I.E the c.o.e moving the goal posts.

Proud - posted on 02/17/2012

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My church tries it's very hardest to follow the Bible to the letter.



What are you calling a contradiction?

**Jackie** - posted on 02/17/2012

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I was born and raised Catholic, and my daughter is also Catholic (in that she was baptised as one). I do not follow many rules of the Catholic church because a lot of them are man made..such as I don't go to confession because I believe a priest is just a man. If I need to talk to God, and boyyyyy do I need to sometimes, I talk to him in my head...so I don't sound like a loony bin. I believe that if you love someone you should tell them and show them every chance you can. I believe that if a gay man loves another gay man and they want to spend their lives together...well I think that is wonderful. So many people spend their lives trying to find love, and end up not even coming close in the end. I welcome anyone to sit next to me in church :)

Stifler's - posted on 02/13/2012

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The bible contradicts itself in many ways. hence why i just go with my gut.

Sally - posted on 02/13/2012

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agree and also people who do believe are realising that they can prayer in there own homes without agreeing to dogma from 1000's of years ago.if you talk directly to your god you don't have to take on your vicar,pastor point of view to be welcome.

Sally - posted on 02/13/2012

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the church and its double standards is the reason i don't go anymore and i know a number of people that feel the same. It always seems to move the goalpost to suit them. Think it time that they grew up and realised that they no longer can put the " the fear of god" in to people. We are not in the dark ages, were they had power over life and death. X

Sally - posted on 02/13/2012

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cool and fair play for standing by you believes. Its ineresting to hear different opinions on the church etc.

Krista - posted on 02/13/2012

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To YOU, yes.



To many others, it is not.



But that is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is that a lot of people view churches as a relic of a bygone era.



And if they leave, and the churches are better off without those people, then that's fine.



But they really shouldn't then be surprised when more and more churches close due to non-attendance.



It can only be so comforting having a theologically pure congregation, when that congregation is rapidly dwindling.

Proud - posted on 02/13/2012

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My post was to the the someone else saying that church attendance is dwindling because people aren't "with the times."



I'm sorry but to me the Bible is just as relevant now as it was when it was written

Krista - posted on 02/13/2012

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If attendance goes down because someone decides to leave because they want to go against Bible principles then the church is better without them.



Ah, but you're assuming that people are leaving because they want to go against Biblical principles.



That's not necessarily so.



I know QUITE a few people who are very devout Christians, but who left organized religion/churches, because the church community or church leaders were the ones acting in violation of Biblical principles.



Churches are not necessarily better off without these people.

Proud - posted on 02/13/2012

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I am saying that they should not allow gay or female vicars.



I am trying to say that if people have a problem because someone is trying to follow the Bible then the church is better without them.



My church does not allow female ministers, we still sing the old hymns, we go to church on Saturdays, we read from the KJV...etc

Sally - posted on 02/13/2012

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@shyla. I respect your view and its valid but how do you explain that they allow female and gay vicars but then limit what they can do. It makes no sense to me. Double standards all the way and this is not the only instance of it.Its why people end up question the role of religion in their lifes.

Proud - posted on 02/13/2012

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^^^ I applaud these churches.

If attendance goes down because someone decides to leave because they want to go against Bible principles then the church is better without them.

Krista - posted on 02/13/2012

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Yes, his views are out-dated, but I'm not going to tell a religion to change its dogma just to get with the times.



If they don't want to, they don't want to. That's their right.



And it's everybody else's right to not attend that church, if they disagree with those viewpoints.

Sally - posted on 02/12/2012

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@ Lisa that a fair comment but what about the case that i have stated. They are welcome on one hand but rescricted in the other.

Minnie - posted on 02/12/2012

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To me it doesn't matter. There are so many religions, so many denominations. Each has it's own philosophy regarding what it means to be a believer. Either suck it up if you choose to stay in your religion or find another.



Case in point, we were part of the IFB. They're extremely conservative and patriarchal. I felt worthless, their philosophy on child rearing nauseated me and their concept of God left me fearing everything.



Should we have stayed IFB, and complained that they weren't being true to their IFB standards? Of course not. We got out.

Sally - posted on 02/12/2012

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guess i always believed that reiigon meant tolarance. I have yet to come across one that is but i have respect for ones that are honest about what they except and what they don't. Its the ones that say one thing and do another i can't stand

@Jenni. I have first hand knowledge of being a catholic and thats why i no longer practise it.

Jenni - posted on 02/12/2012

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The Catholic Church is notorious out of most Christian denominations for being a boy's party and being behind the times. I'm actually surprised they've accepted evolution. Took them long enough to admit the Earth wasn't flat.



There are plenty of other denominations that are less rigid. I guess it's just finding the one that fits. I know if I were a Christian, Catholism wouldn't be the right fit for me, personally.

[deleted account]

@ Sally, I agree. Unfortunately as we've both agreed. Their game, their rules. This is actually a good thing from my perspective. You see, the more people who see this game with its bizarre and rule that smack of doublethink, the more people who will apply critical thinking and may leave the religion.

Sally - posted on 02/12/2012

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@jen. I understand what you mean,their book,their rule but i have a hard time getting my head around the fact that they have both female and gay vicars but then put resrictions on what they can and cannot do. It smacks of double standards. Surely they shouldn't have allowed them to be vicars in the first place. Imho there is no place in this day and age to treat people differently because of their female or gay

Stifler's - posted on 02/12/2012

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Absolutely outdated. I think any religion where women or gays are persecuted isn't for me. Johnny and Jen both make excellent points. I think you have to make up your own mind what is right and wrong based on logic not the english translation of what someone said thousands of years ago.

Johnny - posted on 02/11/2012

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People don't have to take the bible literally to be Christians, despite what people who claim to take the bible literally say. Although I haven't actually met a person who does follow the bible fully regardless of whether they claim to believe each word is "God breathed" or it is an allegory. Which pretty much makes those people who claim it should be taken completely literally hypocrites. And if you don't take the bible as a literal truth, but as an allegorical guide, then you are able to make your own decisions about what is morally and theologically correct.



I'm not a believer though, I'm sure my comments on the topic will offend. Meh.

Jenni - posted on 02/11/2012

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Absolutely. I always struggle to understand how some people can take a collection of books written circa 1500 BC- 300 AD, translated, omitted, edited hundreds of times, originating from ancient cultures much more primitive than our own... and apply it to our modern society.



We're talking about a religion with origins in a highly Patriarchal society; North Africa and the Middle East. Where women were viewed as property, had no rights, could not own property themselves, vote and were viewed as incubators and sex slaves. The Bible includes such depictions as women being evil temptresses that make good men do bad things. Or commanding rapists to marry their victim. Why omit some teachings to adjust to modern society and not others?



I find it ironic that the same people so strongly opposed to gay marriage don't put as much emphasis on the rest of Leviticus and its list of "abominations". Like eating shellfish, women cutting their hair, wearing two different fabrics at the same time, or what slaves we're allowed to own. Outdated is an understatement.

Sally - posted on 02/11/2012

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I for one am not offended. I have no strong believes. I really want people to be honest without being nasty.

Tracey - posted on 02/11/2012

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From a non believer point of view I cannot understand why people who call themselves Christian feel that only parts of the bible apply to them, surely its all or nothing or do you pick and chose the bits you like? If the bible says homosexuality is wrong (which I am NOT suggesting it is) or adultery, or women not doing certain things surely if you believe the bible is the word of god you would obey the book?



Apologising in advance as have probably just offended many people.

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