Cry-It-Out

Kate - posted on 06/09/2009 ( 107 moms have responded )

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Ok so my daughter's doctor (a young, childless woman who JUST got married) said that the best way to sleep-train a child is letting her cry it out. This isn't what I've heard from other, older moms who didn't want to deal with the agony of letting their children cry, but the doctor cited some new study in a newsletter she gets that said it is the best. I guess I was just so tired of her calling me a softy and jumping down my throat every I answered "no" to the inevitable question, "is she sleep-trained yet?"
I had previously been considering the Ferber method (letting her cry for increasing increments of time, then soothing her for 1 or 2 minutes), but when talking with this doctor I began to think that that method is really just crying it out. Eventually the child falls asleep when you're not in the room, after she cries. And it teaches her to cry for longer and longer periods of time because the crying is always rewarded. So I gave in.
One night last weekend, I went out for the first time in over 9 months and my husband just couldn't get her to sleep so he called and asked if it would be ok to start letting her cry it out that night. So we did. It's been almost 4 days of this and the only difference I can see is that she fears her crib. She fears going anywhere near it. How do I know where to draw the line? I'd like to hear from people who have tried this technique before. I'm tired of thinking I'm a bad mother for doing this to my daughter so please, if you're totally against this method from the start, I respect that, but I don't need to hear "you completely screwed up." I need constructive advice from people who've done this before, even if that advice is to stop.

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Kate - posted on 06/13/2009

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To Guggie:
"he post i responded to indicated the child was left for an extended period of time and when the mother responded to the child's cues, the child was shaking."
--Wrong. I said that I HAD tried the FERBER METHOD, which is NOT Cry-It-Out and had a horrible experience. I clearly stated that that lasted 2 NIGHTS.


"of course, we don't know what that means. that could mean simply that the child's normal response is to shake when crying. on the other end of the spectrum it could indicate low glucose levels due to the extended crying. or it could point towards neurological damage. all of that is speculative without further information."
--I know all about the "neurological" goings-on during sleep-training, which is really just all a result of heightened stress levels. As I said earlier, change is stressful for babies. They are creatures of habit. And anytime you cry, you or baby or crazy uncle Bob, your blood pressure goes up but the things you are saying happen in the brain are the extreme cases that are the result of leaving baby for hours. NO ONE HERE IS DOING THAT.

"that being said, the quoted portion in my post was not me...that was advice to a mother of a 6 week old son who was vomiting during the cry-it-out sessions. since many infants have immature gastrinestinal systems, their pyloric sphincter is often underdeveloped. this results in a 'itght' response if that makes sense. stress, such as that caused by extended periods of crying, can cause the infant to vomit uncontrollably. this is an accepted factor when crying it out, so i really don't see what the problem is??? i thought i was being helpful instead of 'intolerant' or whatever people are calling me"
--It's NOT an accepted factor in CIO.

'"Several people who have heard me preach about the "cry it out" ( CIO) method of sleep training have emailed me to share that they have one glitch: their tots cry so hard they vomit."'
--This person is talking about sleep-training TOTS. We are talking about a 9 month old in this forum.

"My advice for what to do when your child vomits from crying during the CIO ( cry it out ) training is this:

'"I suggest you deal with the vomit in the most minimal way you feel comfortable with. If there is not much spit up and it has not landed on their sleeper and if only in a small portion of the crib sheet is wet - leave it be for the morning."'
--I don't know who this person is, but NEVER would you leave vomit in your babies crib. We are not all as dense as this ONE PERSON you've RANDOMLY decided to quote.

"Prepare yourself for side effects of prolonged crying. It is not abnormal for a baby to cry so hard that she induces vomiting. This can be heartbreaking to witness, but it is not abnormal due to the sensitive trigger on a baby's gag reflex. Just clean your baby's sleep area and put her back to bed."

puking is simply one side effect to not responding to an infant's cries. other side effects include dehydration, insomnia (ironic), low glucose levels, poor impulse control, behaviorial and learning problems, weight loss (11+hrs a night means the infant is not receiving enough food), etc etc. bear with me, i am learning this in real time b/c i've never studied this before."
--Fact. Vomiting can happen, as we've all admitted, but the idea, again, is NOT TO LEAVE THEM LONG ENOUGH FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. Sometimes it may happen anyway and in that case, yes you would clean it up and put baby back in her crib. IT IS NOT OK TO LEAVE A NEWBORN UNATTENDED. SLEEP TRAINING IS ONLY APPROPRIATE FOR CHILDREN OF A CERTAIN WEIGHT, generally around 6 months they are capable of doing this. In which case, they can very well sleep 11+ hours without NEEDING to be fed. THERE IS NO DISPUTE OVER WHETHER A CHILD AT A GOOD WEIGHT AROUND THIS AGE DOESN'T NEED TO BE FED DURING THE NIGHT. ON THE CONTRARY, IF YOU GIVE YOUR CHILD A BOTTLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT BEYOND A CERTAIN WEIGHT/AGE, HE OR SHE WILL CONTINUE TO WAKE UP AT THAT TIME SOLELY FOR THE COMFORT OF THAT BOTTLE. IT IS NOT NECESSARY.


And by the way, people trust more current studies on the matter over more current studies in vaccination because when it comes to vaccines, THE OLD INFORMATION IS STILL WHAT IS USED IN DOCTORS' OFFICES TODAY. When it comes to behavioral issues like sleep, THE INFORMATION CHANGES. As was said before, we used to put babies on their tummies. People used to put whiskey in their babies' milk. In some countries, the placenta is rubbed on the babies gums for strength after birth. These things change.

STOP WRITING IN THIS FORUM. YOU AREN'T HELPING ANYONE. YOU'RE AGGRAVATING PEOPLE AND I CLEARLY DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU. And for all your information, you can find just as much saying CIO is fine and sometimes the only way to go about this.

I cannot stress this enough. IT IS NOT OK TO LEAVE A NEWBORN UNATTENDED.

To Erin L:
I'm so sorry that you went through such a traumatizing experience. Your father's life was ending, you cannot hate yourself for making the choice you did. Not only did you have post-natal depression, which is debilitating-- and for many women, dangerous-- but you had to deal with the reality of what was happening in your life at the time. I'm so happy for you that you are taking the steps to be closer to your daughter. You are a very strong woman and I really appreciate you sharing your story with us.

User - posted on 06/11/2009

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Everytime I read one of these...I get unnerved. It starts out so well with mothers sharing ideas and opinions, and ends up with mommies calling each other names. I don't get it. You do whats best for your baby and your family because you love your babies. Don't freak out.



I let my first baby cry it out (he didn't learn to put himself to sleep until he was over 2 - and he took a pacifier and had a "lovey"). My second needed no help, she slept through the night at 6 weeks with no problems...ever. My third was a mixture of both and since I had two others, I didn't let him cry it out because he was waking the whole house. Number 4 is on the way and I really don't know what I'll do, although in my opinion crying it out is too sad and stressful on everyone especially mommy! (I know you don't want anti-CIO opinions, sorry!)



I agree with the FACT that newborns have no idea how to manipulate, but by the time they are around a year, I'm pretty sure they can. I also allowed our youngest one to come into our bed. Everyone slept throughout the night when most parents of newborns/infants are up all the time. HOWEVER transitioning him to his own bed has been a huge struggle. With a baby you just never know if you're coming or going, no matter what. Do whatever you do out of love...you'll be fine. Also, don't worry about second guessing yourself. Maybe today you decide crying out is best and then a few months from now you change your mind. Don't stay roped into something just because "I said I was going to"



Know this will pass and at some point be it sooner or later everyone will get a good night's rest. Of course, I was just thinking last night...my good night's rest is looooong way off. LOL. But, it's worth it. Peace (and sleep) be with all of you. Yawn...

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I have never done the "ferber method" jowever, I can say that I am a mom of FIVE children, and each child is different. If you feel in your heart the this "crying it out" isn't working, then don't. You know and feel what is best for your child, and the only problem I can see from this is that you are not confident in that. You have been given natural insticts to parent. Follow tjose.
You wnat my experience, fine. My oldest....now 10, slept in her bed peacefully and happily from day one. My second...age 8 cried only when she thought she was far awayt. If I put her in her crib and sang or talked a few minutes, she would fall happily into a deep sleep and sleep 10 hours. My third...not such a nice expirience. Cried no matter what I did. She would not sleep with me, nor with out me,. Alexandria cried herself to sleep EVERYnight from the time she was 18 months, because I tried everything else, until she was three. It was the only way she would sleep all night, the only time she would wake up happy, the only way I could remain sane. Finally after she turned three, or shortly before, it just stopped. Believe me I tried EVERYTHING else. Sometimes, there is not a method. Only what works for you, by your instincts. Listen to your child. She will show what is best.....eventually. Just be patient.

Ashley - posted on 06/09/2009

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Hi Kate! You are not a bad mom...let me start by saying that much. I hired an infant sleep expert with my daughter when she was 10 weeks old and she taught me loads about babies sleep patterns, crying to sleep etc. She informed me that I should put my baby down at the first sign she was tired (rubbing eyes, etc.). Then she said to leave her and not go in. She said the more I went in (even if it was only every 15 minutes) the more stimulated she would be. she also gave me an age-appropriate length of time to give my daughter to fall asleep during the training period. For a baby of 6 months or older she said to give them 1 hour without going in. If they are still crying she said to go in, pick them up, stay at the crib, pat her back until she's calm, then repeat the process. She said it should typically take a baby 5-15 minutes to fall asleep after they learn to fall asleep on their own and some will cry and some won't...it all depends on how they wind down and fall asleep. So by going in every 15 minutes you may just be stimulating her more. I positioned my daughters crib so it was right next to the door and I could peek in at her without her seeing me, since I couldn't go in and check her as it would just stimulate her more. If you want her to fall asleep unassisted then I found this to be the best way. My expert also says it takes 3 consecutive days of consistency before you may see a change (it will feel like 3 days of hell), but you should see each day they cry less and less. She also told me to put my baby down for the night within the 6pm hour to minimize night time waking. My daughter goes down around 6:30pm and sleeps through until 6-6:30am. It is hard work and the older they are the louder they cry/scream, but it can work wonders for their sleep and yours. Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.

Kate CP - posted on 06/09/2009

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First, I would suggest you find a new doctor. It sounds like you're not very comfortable with this lady and she's calling you names! Second, I would read up on a few different methods of "sleep training" and make an educated decision. I did a form of crying it out with my daughter and it worked for us, but it's not for everyone. Good luck and it will get better. :)

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107 Comments

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Tanya - posted on 06/14/2009

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I have always cuddled my son 2 sleep, or got him to sleep in my bed then put him in his cot, i tried letting him cry it out but it's to stres-ful to listen to it so then i started putting him in his cot and lying in my bed next to him, he new i woz there and was asleep in 2mins, i havnt really progressed from this point, but the time parents spend reading stories is all i spend lying there until he's asleep, i have recieved some tips of here myself now so will try and move on letting him get to sleep on his own, it takes time and if you have to take small easy steps rather than one large stress-ful self doubting one then why bother?

User - posted on 06/13/2009

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Use the ferber method but also get her on a set schedule. It will take some time but she will learn that you are there for her and she is secure where she is. Allowing a child to cry it out makes them feel insecure. With the ferber method you are teaching her that it is ok to cry and that if something is wrong with her that you will be there to fix it. As in if she is wet she will know that you will be there to change her, or if something is hurting her in her crib you will make it stop. When she feels secure she will slowly stop crying. Just be sure to go in the room and lay her down calmly and tell her that it is ok. That you are still there but it is time for her to go to sleep now. Having her on a strict schedule at this time will also help the situation. She will start to learn that after her bath, story, songs, or whatever you do at bedtime, it is time for her to lay down and go to sleep.
I also found that if there is a special blanket or stuffed animal that she likes, she will sleep better if she can have it. I know that doctors also say not to let a child go to bed with a bottle. Well if you are giving them juice or formula they may be right due to the sugars and tooth decay, but water never hurt anything. My 9 month old has her schedule and her bedtime routine. She has a bottle of water when she goes to bed and if she wakes in the middle of the night as long as she does not need a diaper changed she gets laid back down and she goes back to sleep on her own. Most nights she doesn't even wake me up.
Best of luck and remember that a child needs security in order to be happy.

Elizabeth - posted on 06/13/2009

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Kate, you are not a bad mom, we all have those moments that we look in the mirror and ask am I doing the right thing by my children. I actual read Ferber's book and I have had success in this method with my first two children. For my youngest child it never worked to let him cry it out. My doctor reccommended a book called "Healthly Sleep Habits, Happy Child" This book explores different types of sleep pattens and how to work with different types of Children. I worked through different types and finally found one that worked. All children are different and one thing doesn't work for every child. Good Luck!

Mel - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Kate:

Seriously, would you guys knock it off? Take it to private message or something but hijacking a thread is just obnoxious and rude.


 



i agree sarah you twice said to me for me and bridget to sort shit out when i was not the one startinf fights now i would suggest you do the same and take it privately not on here

Mel - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Kate:

Seriously, would you guys knock it off? Take it to private message or something but hijacking a thread is just obnoxious and rude.


 



i agree sarah you twice said to me for me and bridget to sort shit out when i was not the one startinf fights now i would suggest you do the same and take it privately not on here

Erin - posted on 06/12/2009

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i'm sorry! but as a mother of 3 let me explin the experience i had with my 2nd child skye she was born & from the moment she came out she screamed & cried! noone had any idea why- in hindsight i believe i was the cause because i was going through the pain of watching my father dying of cancer- i tried everything to settle her but after a couple of weeks she still hadnt changed then everyone suggested for me tojust leave her to cry herself to sleep! so i did just that! it took 21/2 yrs for her to sleep through her 1st night! what did this horrific idea cost me? complete post-natal deppresion! it is a cruel thing to do! i can understand leaving your child for a 5 min break to see if they can settle themselves & to also give yourself the chance o determine what sought of cry it is! but with my personal experiene i'm only just coming to terms with the fact that if i had done what she needed from me from the start then i would have been less depressed & she would have had all of her needs met! this did not happen! i today feel so much regret for what happened! & even now at her age of 5 1/2 yrs i am still learning to try to be close with her! if i could do it over i would in a heart beat but i can't!

i am not saying that if you leave them to cry for a short period of time that it is wrong but what i am saying is that people who believe that a baby should settle themselves no matter what the problem or to what emotional cost is disgusting! now that i have had my 3rd child i decided that i would never do that again! i taught myself that it is o.k for me to do what i think is the best! if my baby wakes up in the night & the only thing that can settle him is for me to be nursing him to sleep then thats what i do! believe me since being they're physicaly & emotionaly 100% for him he is so great at sleeping & such a happy baby!

PLEASE! don't ever think that someone else knows best wether it is a family member with yrs of experience or a professional! do what your heart tells you to do everytime! it works always!

erin................

Rachael - posted on 06/12/2009

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Where are you getting your medical information from? Are you getting it from legitimate medical journals that are written by actual physicians? Are they current or 10+ years old? Since the op ask that people with your opinion not post on this thread the least you could do is respect her wishes. We all understand that you are not a fan of CIO, OK we get it. Since I do use CIO (my daughter has never vomited) I would really like to be able to see what other moms who also have used it have to say. Instead all I can see is vomit vomit vomit.

Kate CP - posted on 06/12/2009

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Seriously, would you guys knock it off? Take it to private message or something but hijacking a thread is just obnoxious and rude.

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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again, i'm not disputing your facts, i am simply saying that CIO, if used APPROPRIATELY and NOT necessarily followed 'by the book' is not a bad thing, if your child is vomiting, them i would assume you're leaving them too long, or your child is not suited to the CIO method, so stop.
i've never said EVERY mother is kind and caring, i've said MOST are.
my youngest is one yrs old now, and sleeps 11+ hrs hours per night, and let me assure you, she is in NO WAY not getting enough food!!
you continue to take the term CIO to the extreme, you continue to believe that all mothers who use the phrase CIO, to mean that extreme version.
i'm done for tonight, i'm not personally insulted by anything you have said, i go to my bed now, safe in the knowledge that my kids are happy, healthy, meeting all milestones, contented, they love me, they feel secure and they have had a good nights sleep!!!

Guggie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Sarah:

ok, seriously, i'm not viewing this as a personal insult, i have not once said that. what i'm trying to understand is why you keep bringing up the vomiting thing, when NOT ONE PERSON has said that they have gone to those lengths with CIO. if someone was on
this thread saying 'i let my baby cry til it puked' then yes, by all means, say something. jeez, i probably would too! but no-one here has even hinted they would even consider doing that!
the majority of people (i say again) ARE good caring mum's, they want to help their kids in any way they can, but not everyone goes about it in the same way. i saw letting my children cry for a while a way to give them a good nights sleep.....which they NEED! 2 nights was all it took, and now they sleep 11+ hrs a night.
yes, there is an alternative, i've said i don't follow strict methods, it has to be age appropriate and based on the individual child. but just constantly citing things that make us out to be neglectful mothers, i personally see as a bit mean. :)



you continue to reiterate that everyone is a good, caring mom. if you're not insulted, then there's no need to defend.



puking is simply one side effect to not responding to an infant's cries. other side effects include dehydration, insomnia (ironic), low glucose levels, poor impulse control, behaviorial and learning problems, weight loss (11+hrs a night means the infant is not receiving enough food), etc etc. bear with me, i am learning this in real time b/c i've never studied this before.



i keep to the science of things. i know that science can't be the end all god, but it does help out a lot when making decisions on health-related aspects. sure, some people are more laid back, others are more involved. there is nothing wrong with either. if i see something that can be harmful to a child, then i am going to say something and i would appreciate the same.



 



since it seems my other studies were so outdated, here are some more to chew on:



 



According to a University of Pittsburgh study by Dr M DeBellis and seven colleagues, published in Biological Psychiatry in 2004, children who suffer early trauma generally develop smaller brains.



 



A Harvard University study by Dr M Teicher and five colleagues, also published in Biological Psychiatry, claims that the brain areas affected by severe distress are the limbic system, the left hemisphere, and the corpus callosum. Additional areas that may be involved are the hippocampus and the orbitofrontal cortex.



 



The Science of Parenting by Dr Margot Sunderland (Dorling Kindersley, 2006) is a recently published book that points out some of the brain damaging effects that can occur if parents fail to properly nurture a baby - and that means not allowing them to "cry it out".



 



- Early Trauma and Adult Pain Perception -

Stress in Infancy
by Linda Folden Palmer, D.C.
What causes stress during infancy? Laboratory and psychology research on animal and human infants gives us many clues. Certainly, pain from unfortunate medical conditions can create stress. So would pain from sensitivity reactions to formula or to foods passed along in breastmilk. Physical abuse and extreme neglect provide a very high degree of stress, but the effects of these severe cases are not the point of this text. Even short-term separation from mother leads to elevated cortisol in infants, indicating stress.1,2 In fact, after one full day of separation, infant rats already show altered brain organization of chemical receptors.3 A similar rat study revealed that one day without mother actually doubled the number of normal brain cell deaths.4

Guggie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Sarah:

ok, seriously, i'm not viewing this as a personal insult, i have not once said that. what i'm trying to understand is why you keep bringing up the vomiting thing, when NOT ONE PERSON has said that they have gone to those lengths with CIO. if someone was on
this thread saying 'i let my baby cry til it puked' then yes, by all means, say something. jeez, i probably would too! but no-one here has even hinted they would even consider doing that!
the majority of people (i say again) ARE good caring mum's, they want to help their kids in any way they can, but not everyone goes about it in the same way. i saw letting my children cry for a while a way to give them a good nights sleep.....which they NEED! 2 nights was all it took, and now they sleep 11+ hrs a night.
yes, there is an alternative, i've said i don't follow strict methods, it has to be age appropriate and based on the individual child. but just constantly citing things that make us out to be neglectful mothers, i personally see as a bit mean. :)



you continue to reiterate that everyone is a good, caring mom. if you're not insulted, then there's no need to defend.



puking is simply one side effect to not responding to an infant's cries. other side effects include dehydration, insomnia (ironic), low glucose levels, poor impulse control, behaviorial and learning problems, weight loss (11+hrs a night means the infant is not receiving enough food), etc etc. bear with me, i am learning this in real time b/c i've never studied this before.



i keep to the science of things. i know that science can't be the end all god, but it does help out a lot when making decisions on health-related aspects. sure, some people are more laid back, others are more involved. there is nothing wrong with either. if i see something that can be harmful to a child, then i am going to say something and i would appreciate the same.



 



since it seems my other studies were so outdated, here are some more to chew on:



 



According to a University of Pittsburgh study by Dr M DeBellis and seven colleagues, published in Biological Psychiatry in 2004, children who suffer early trauma generally develop smaller brains.



 



A Harvard University study by Dr M Teicher and five colleagues, also published in Biological Psychiatry, claims that the brain areas affected by severe distress are the limbic system, the left hemisphere, and the corpus callosum. Additional areas that may be involved are the hippocampus and the orbitofrontal cortex.



 



The Science of Parenting by Dr Margot Sunderland (Dorling Kindersley, 2006) is a recently published book that points out some of the brain damaging effects that can occur if parents fail to properly nurture a baby - and that means not allowing them to "cry it out".



 



- Early Trauma and Adult Pain Perception -

Stress in Infancy
by Linda Folden Palmer, D.C.
What causes stress during infancy? Laboratory and psychology research on animal and human infants gives us many clues. Certainly, pain from unfortunate medical conditions can create stress. So would pain from sensitivity reactions to formula or to foods passed along in breastmilk. Physical abuse and extreme neglect provide a very high degree of stress, but the effects of these severe cases are not the point of this text. Even short-term separation from mother leads to elevated cortisol in infants, indicating stress.1,2 In fact, after one full day of separation, infant rats already show altered brain organization of chemical receptors.3 A similar rat study revealed that one day without mother actually doubled the number of normal brain cell deaths.4

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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ok, seriously, i'm not viewing this as a personal insult, i have not once said that. what i'm trying to understand is why you keep bringing up the vomiting thing, when NOT ONE PERSON has said that they have gone to those lengths with CIO. if someone was on
this thread saying 'i let my baby cry til it puked' then yes, by all means, say something. jeez, i probably would too! but no-one here has even hinted they would even consider doing that!
the majority of people (i say again) ARE good caring mum's, they want to help their kids in any way they can, but not everyone goes about it in the same way. i saw letting my children cry for a while a way to give them a good nights sleep.....which they NEED! 2 nights was all it took, and now they sleep 11+ hrs a night.
yes, there is an alternative, i've said i don't follow strict methods, it has to be age appropriate and based on the individual child. but just constantly citing things that make us out to be neglectful mothers, i personally see as a bit mean. :)

Guggie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Sarah:

i've not called you intolerant. you are posting on a thread where the OP clearly stated several times she not want people who are against CIO to post on. so i don't understand why you continue to post here? we all see that you do not like CIO, we have read your info, and clearly you know about the medical tems and what not, still, not one person here has suggested leaving a baby to vomit, so why keep bringing that up???
perhaps all you see in your life are bad mum's who behave in this way, but honestly, most mum's DO NOT treat their children in that manner. you've seen my methods, read my comments and yet you continue to press the issue that CIO is wrong and damaging full stop. it's not, if done in an age appropriate and caring manner.
i'm really not trying to pick a fight, but please please realise that not all mum's are these horrible women that leave their children vomiting and crying for hours!! the majority of mum's are GOOD kind caring mums!
yes, take a stand against mothers leaving their kids to vomit and what not, but no-one here is!!!! :)



I don't understand why disagreement on circle of moms is automatically viewed as some personal insult.



 



Everyone keeps saying they are good caring mums...well yeah I think the oxytocin levels from birthing and (for some) nursing cause a very sticky bond. It is normal to care.



 



I keep posting because I hope that maybe someone will think about what they are doing...and maybe this will spark change. Maybe not. But seeing the alternative to not saying anything at all, it seems worth it to continue to post on a public discussion forum.

Guggie - posted on 06/12/2009

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but why believe me? here are pro-CIO sources that detail the issue:



 



http://www.alyson.ca/2008/02/cry-it-out-...



"Several people who have heard me preach about the "cry it out" ( CIO) method of sleep training have emailed me to share that they have one glitch: their tots cry so hard they vomit."



"My advice for what to do when your child vomits from crying during the CIO ( cry it out ) training is this:



I suggest you deal with the vomit in the most minimal way you feel comfortable with. If there is not much spit up and it has not landed on their sleeper and if only in a small portion of the crib sheet is wet - leave it be for the morning."



 



http://community.babycenter.com/post/a98...



http://www.ehow.com/how_2062849_let-baby...



"Prepare yourself for side effects of prolonged crying. It is not abnormal for a baby to cry so hard that she induces vomiting. This can be heartbreaking to witness, but it is not abnormal due to the sensitive trigger on a baby's gag reflex. Just clean your baby's sleep area and put her back to bed."



 



 



-------------------



For those who don't want to ignore their child's cues, but also want a specific schedule, I guess you could look into the "no cry sleep solution." I am not doing cio or anything else, so I have never even looked at any of this stuff. I honestly had no idea this is what CIO meant. It seems Watson's behaviorist psychology of the 1920s has been breeding in America all along! I can see where my initial post came across as odd, but it was just pure shock. Think if we left an elderly person in a nursing home in bed until they puked all over themselves, and then left them to lie in it all night. My goodness we'd be tried in criminal court. It is sad how human infants have no personhood and dignity in our current culture.

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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i've not called you intolerant. you are posting on a thread where the OP clearly stated several times she not want people who are against CIO to post on. so i don't understand why you continue to post here? we all see that you do not like CIO, we have read your info, and clearly you know about the medical tems and what not, still, not one person here has suggested leaving a baby to vomit, so why keep bringing that up???
perhaps all you see in your life are bad mum's who behave in this way, but honestly, most mum's DO NOT treat their children in that manner. you've seen my methods, read my comments and yet you continue to press the issue that CIO is wrong and damaging full stop. it's not, if done in an age appropriate and caring manner.
i'm really not trying to pick a fight, but please please realise that not all mum's are these horrible women that leave their children vomiting and crying for hours!! the majority of mum's are GOOD kind caring mums!
yes, take a stand against mothers leaving their kids to vomit and what not, but no-one here is!!!! :)

Guggie - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Sarah:



Quoting Guggie:




Quoting Sara:





Quoting Guggie:







Quoting Sarah:








Quoting Guggie:









Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?

















holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.


















 


















Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.


















 


















The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.


















http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...


















 


















I just googled and found this:



















http://www.slate.com/id/2020/


















 


















this handout has 15 strong citations:


















http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...


















 
























ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!
















also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.
















and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.
















:)






















Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.














 














Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.














 

















OMG!!!  Sarah Moulton!  You are a horrible mom because you vaccinate and sleep train.  Don't you know you are damaging your very young child?  I mean, I would much rather not vaccinate my child or sleep train them but rather teach them to be a judgmental person who likes to put other people down for their parenting choices, because I, like my child will someday, know everything.  You should really follow my lead.  I mean, I've never even read Ferber's book, but clearly, it's wrong!  :)












 


















Just sayin' ...if someone has a problem w/ a 10yr old sleep study, then why would she accept the 10-20-30yr old vaccines studies? I'm confused as to how that indicates I am vaccine-free. Furthermore, you shouldn't have to take my lead for it. Even if we ignore the physiology of an infant and the sociological implications this process has on maternal and neonatal relationships, you are still left with major medical organisations warning mothers not to use this method.






 






As reparation for posting on a public thread (that is somehow restricted to certain users) I offer up supportive assistance by mentioning an awesome product:






 






"Since you can’t change his reaction to crying, we recommend making the cleanup as quick and undisruptive as possible. Start by investing in the genius Ultimate Crib Sheets (available at Target). They are flat, waterproof crib sheets that you can literally remove in 30 seconds by snapping them off crib bars to reveal another dry fitted sheet underneath. That way, when your son vomits, you can walk calmly into his room, take off the “top sheet,” wipe him off without saying a word, and walk back out. "









what??????? as i have said a million times, i do not use 'methods' i go by my childs needs and my instincts. Ultimate Crib Sheets???? leaving your child to vomit??? er......NO!! has anyone said that???? er.......NO.






seriously, why don't you take a minute and read what people are writing!!






 






the post i responded to indicated the child was left for an extended period of time and when the mother responded to the child's cues, the child was shaking.



 



of course, we don't know what that means. that could mean simply that the child's normal response is to shake when crying. on the other end of the spectrum it could indicate low glucose levels due to the extended crying. or it could point towards neurological damage. all of that is speculative without further information.



 



that being said, the quoted portion in my post was not me...that was advice to a mother of a 6 week old son who was vomiting during the cry-it-out sessions. since many infants have immature gastrinestinal systems, their pyloric sphincter is often underdeveloped. this results in a 'itght' response if that makes sense. stress, such as that caused by extended periods of crying, can cause the infant to vomit uncontrollably. this is an accepted factor when crying it out, so i really don't see what the problem is??? i thought i was being helpful instead of 'intolerant' or whatever people are calling me.

Sarah - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Guggie:



Quoting Sara:




Quoting Guggie:






Quoting Sarah:







Quoting Guggie:








Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?















holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.
















 
















Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.
















 
















The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.
















http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...
















 
















I just googled and found this:

















http://www.slate.com/id/2020/
















 
















this handout has 15 strong citations:
















http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...
















 





















ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!














also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.














and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.














:)



















Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.












 












Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.












 














OMG!!!  Sarah Moulton!  You are a horrible mom because you vaccinate and sleep train.  Don't you know you are damaging your very young child?  I mean, I would much rather not vaccinate my child or sleep train them but rather teach them to be a judgmental person who likes to put other people down for their parenting choices, because I, like my child will someday, know everything.  You should really follow my lead.  I mean, I've never even read Ferber's book, but clearly, it's wrong!  :)









 













Just sayin' ...if someone has a problem w/ a 10yr old sleep study, then why would she accept the 10-20-30yr old vaccines studies? I'm confused as to how that indicates I am vaccine-free. Furthermore, you shouldn't have to take my lead for it. Even if we ignore the physiology of an infant and the sociological implications this process has on maternal and neonatal relationships, you are still left with major medical organisations warning mothers not to use this method.



 



As reparation for posting on a public thread (that is somehow restricted to certain users) I offer up supportive assistance by mentioning an awesome product:



 



"Since you can’t change his reaction to crying, we recommend making the cleanup as quick and undisruptive as possible. Start by investing in the genius Ultimate Crib Sheets (available at Target). They are flat, waterproof crib sheets that you can literally remove in 30 seconds by snapping them off crib bars to reveal another dry fitted sheet underneath. That way, when your son vomits, you can walk calmly into his room, take off the “top sheet,” wipe him off without saying a word, and walk back out. "





what??????? as i have said a million times, i do not use 'methods' i go by my childs needs and my instincts. Ultimate Crib Sheets???? leaving your child to vomit??? er......NO!! has anyone said that???? er.......NO.



seriously, why don't you take a minute and read what people are writing!!



 

Angela - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Ashley:

Hi Kate! You are not a bad mom...let me start by saying that much. I hired an infant sleep expert with my daughter when she was 10 weeks old and she taught me loads about babies sleep patterns, crying to sleep etc. She informed me that I should put my baby down at the first sign she was tired (rubbing eyes, etc.). Then she said to leave her and not go in. She said the more I went in (even if it was only every 15 minutes) the more stimulated she would be. she also gave me an age-appropriate length of time to give my daughter to fall asleep during the training period. For a baby of 6 months or older she said to give them 1 hour without going in. If they are still crying she said to go in, pick them up, stay at the crib, pat her back until she's calm, then repeat the process. She said it should typically take a baby 5-15 minutes to fall asleep after they learn to fall asleep on their own and some will cry and some won't...it all depends on how they wind down and fall asleep. So by going in every 15 minutes you may just be stimulating her more. I positioned my daughters crib so it was right next to the door and I could peek in at her without her seeing me, since I couldn't go in and check her as it would just stimulate her more. If you want her to fall asleep unassisted then I found this to be the best way. My expert also says it takes 3 consecutive days of consistency before you may see a change (it will feel like 3 days of hell), but you should see each day they cry less and less. She also told me to put my baby down for the night within the 6pm hour to minimize night time waking. My daughter goes down around 6:30pm and sleeps through until 6-6:30am. It is hard work and the older they are the louder they cry/scream, but it can work wonders for their sleep and yours. Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.



Wonderful! Ensightful Advice!

Angela - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Ashley:

Hi Kate! You are not a bad mom...let me start by saying that much. I hired an infant sleep expert with my daughter when she was 10 weeks old and she taught me loads about babies sleep patterns, crying to sleep etc. She informed me that I should put my baby down at the first sign she was tired (rubbing eyes, etc.). Then she said to leave her and not go in. She said the more I went in (even if it was only every 15 minutes) the more stimulated she would be. she also gave me an age-appropriate length of time to give my daughter to fall asleep during the training period. For a baby of 6 months or older she said to give them 1 hour without going in. If they are still crying she said to go in, pick them up, stay at the crib, pat her back until she's calm, then repeat the process. She said it should typically take a baby 5-15 minutes to fall asleep after they learn to fall asleep on their own and some will cry and some won't...it all depends on how they wind down and fall asleep. So by going in every 15 minutes you may just be stimulating her more. I positioned my daughters crib so it was right next to the door and I could peek in at her without her seeing me, since I couldn't go in and check her as it would just stimulate her more. If you want her to fall asleep unassisted then I found this to be the best way. My expert also says it takes 3 consecutive days of consistency before you may see a change (it will feel like 3 days of hell), but you should see each day they cry less and less. She also told me to put my baby down for the night within the 6pm hour to minimize night time waking. My daughter goes down around 6:30pm and sleeps through until 6-6:30am. It is hard work and the older they are the louder they cry/scream, but it can work wonders for their sleep and yours. Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.



Wonderful! Ensightful Advice!

Angela - posted on 06/12/2009

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Ferberizing was terrible for me. I finally did CIO. Here are some tips: If you aren't comfortable with it, don't do it.

If you are going to, don't quit and do it everynight.

Have a routine. Bath, Bottle Book Keep it the same EVERY NIGHT If you miss one thing it may result in more crying



STICK WITH IT STICK WITH IT



Find the right time for your baby to go to sleep- For some thats 7, for others thats 9



Some babies actually sleep better if they get three naps in the day, even when PEDs say only 1-2



Now, here is the thing. Every baby is different. My little girl gets more upset if you go into her and she sees one of us.. to get a pacy or say "its okay"



she will actually start from "square one" if I go into her



We let her cry it out for 4 nights and she started sleeping. The first night it was awhile, like over an hour. Than it got less and less. Than she slept great on her own every night... than once in awhile like once a week she would cry again. Stick with it. I was so against cry it out until I actually decided... wait a minute here. Whos the mom and who needs to get stuff done, like make lunch for tomorrow and dolaundy or sit on the couch and have some time with my honey. By 6 months you can let a baby cry it out. Spend some time in your room thinking about it. Quiet all your fears-- fears of being a "bad mom" -- fears of whatever.. quiet all your thoughts.. and than boom the answer will come. Its all about your mindset. Ever since we got ours sleeping properly she is better in the daytime, she is happier and I am much happier. My Nana, aunts,... friends told me not to do it, and my triage nurse told me to do it when I called one day and didn't know what to do. I followed her advice and my evenings from 8-I go to bed have been GREAT.

User - posted on 06/12/2009

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Quoting Guggie:



Quoting Sara:




Quoting Guggie:






Quoting Sarah:







Quoting Guggie:








Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?















holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.
















 
















Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.
















 
















The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.
















http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...
















 
















I just googled and found this:

















http://www.slate.com/id/2020/
















 
















this handout has 15 strong citations:
















http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...
















 





















ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!














also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.














and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.














:)



















Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.












 












Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.












 














OMG!!!  Sarah Moulton!  You are a horrible mom because you vaccinate and sleep train.  Don't you know you are damaging your very young child?  I mean, I would much rather not vaccinate my child or sleep train them but rather teach them to be a judgmental person who likes to put other people down for their parenting choices, because I, like my child will someday, know everything.  You should really follow my lead.  I mean, I've never even read Ferber's book, but clearly, it's wrong!  :)









 






Just sayin' ...if someone has a problem w/ a 10yr old sleep study, then why would she accept the 10-20-30yr old vaccines studies? I'm confused as to how that indicates I am vaccine-free. Furthermore, you shouldn't have to take my lead for it. Even if we ignore the physiology of an infant and the sociological implications this process has on maternal and neonatal relationships, you are still left with major medical organisations warning mothers not to use this method.






 






As reparation for posting on a public thread (that is somehow restricted to certain users) I offer up supportive assistance by mentioning an awesome product:






 






"Since you can’t change his reaction to crying, we recommend making the cleanup as quick and undisruptive as possible. Start by investing in the genius Ultimate Crib Sheets (available at Target). They are flat, waterproof crib sheets that you can literally remove in 30 seconds by snapping them off crib bars to reveal another dry fitted sheet underneath. That way, when your son vomits, you can walk calmly into his room, take off the “top sheet,” wipe him off without saying a word, and walk back out. "






 






LOL!

Guggie - posted on 06/12/2009

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21

Quoting Sara:



Quoting Guggie:





Quoting Sarah:






Quoting Guggie:







Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?













holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.














 














Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.














 














The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.














http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...














 














I just googled and found this:















http://www.slate.com/id/2020/














 














this handout has 15 strong citations:














http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...














 


















ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!












also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.












and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.












:)
















Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.










 










Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.










 











OMG!!!  Sarah Moulton!  You are a horrible mom because you vaccinate and sleep train.  Don't you know you are damaging your very young child?  I mean, I would much rather not vaccinate my child or sleep train them but rather teach them to be a judgmental person who likes to put other people down for their parenting choices, because I, like my child will someday, know everything.  You should really follow my lead.  I mean, I've never even read Ferber's book, but clearly, it's wrong!  :)





 



Just sayin' ...if someone has a problem w/ a 10yr old sleep study, then why would she accept the 10-20-30yr old vaccines studies? I'm confused as to how that indicates I am vaccine-free. Furthermore, you shouldn't have to take my lead for it. Even if we ignore the physiology of an infant and the sociological implications this process has on maternal and neonatal relationships, you are still left with major medical organisations warning mothers not to use this method.



 



As reparation for posting on a public thread (that is somehow restricted to certain users) I offer up supportive assistance by mentioning an awesome product:



 



"Since you can’t change his reaction to crying, we recommend making the cleanup as quick and undisruptive as possible. Start by investing in the genius Ultimate Crib Sheets (available at Target). They are flat, waterproof crib sheets that you can literally remove in 30 seconds by snapping them off crib bars to reveal another dry fitted sheet underneath. That way, when your son vomits, you can walk calmly into his room, take off the “top sheet,” wipe him off without saying a word, and walk back out. "



 

Rachael - posted on 06/11/2009

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We have used cry it out for months, my daughter is 7 1/2 months now. We started a strict bedtime routine when she was about 3 months and we try our very best to stick to it. Most nights she does very well and just rolls over and goes to sleep when I put her blanket on her, other nights she fights it. I put her blanket on her and leave the room, it usually takes her about 10 minutes and she is out. Nap time was a big problem because she doesn't always nap at the same time so having a strict nap time schedule was harder but she is getting much better. I don't know if I would continue to use it if your daughter is shaking and is afraid of going in her crib. Best of luck to you!

Andrea - posted on 06/11/2009

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Try Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child... I recommend it to all my friends and we all love it! I let my son cry it out and it worked really well after 6 months. My doctor suggested going in and checking on him 5 then 10 then 15 minutes, but I found that that got him all upset all over again. He also suggested not letting them cry it out until 6 months of age unless you have to go back to work. I have a video moniter that I can check in on him with and that has eased my mind about him crying! Also you can't let them get overly tired otherwise they are going to have a rough night falling asleep and staying asleep!

Ashley - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Kate:

Ok another question, what do you all do during the night? Let them cry it out completely unattended or go in once to check and the let them cry or what? My husband and I live in a VERY small apartment in the city with 1 bedroom 1 living room, a bathroom and a kitchenette. My husband and my best friend comes over frequently and stays until after midnight. My daughter often wakes up when he leaves because she hears the door. So she'll go down around 7 or 8, falling asleep now within a couple of minutes, and then wake up some time after midnight and cry for 5-15 minutes. Is it damaging to allow my friend to come over during this process when I know he is likely to wake her up? It seems like a stupid question when I ask it. I'm thinking of just asking him not to come over for a little while. But what happens when she wakes up in the middle of the night, for whatever reason? My husband just sneezed in the bathroom and woke her up again. Is it even possible to successfully sleep-train in this environment?


Hi Kate,



It sounds like your daughter is really getting the hang of it, good for both of you! To answer this question you have (not sure if you already found a solution yet), it was recommended to me by a sleep expert (who has done ALL of her reasearch with sources within the last five years) to put your baby down within the 6pm hour. Putting her down around 7pm or 8pm may be too late for her and may be contributing to her waking up. The expert told me this about the magical 6pm hour: most babies' brains switch into sleep mode within the 6pm hour, it's how their circadian rhythms work. So if her brain is telling her it's bedtime around 6pm and she doesn't get down until 8pm then her brain is starting to get overtired so it will be a little agitated and not rest well. Putting her down a little earlier will help, but also babies do occasionally wake up at night, nearly everyone does. But the goal is for it to be minimal and for them to be awake for a very short time. Last night I got up to go potty and checked on my daugter and she was moving around a little bit getting more comfortable and went right back to sleep. If I hadn't checked her I wouldn't have even known. And for your daughter to only cry for 5-15 minutes and go right back to sleep is awesome...that means she has it down and knows what to do when she wakes up. Some babies always cry when they go to sleep, it's usually very brief (5-20 minutes) and it is their winding down process. If you think about it, us humans do many things to wind down before bed, brush our teeth, maybe take a bath, read a book, whatever. What do babies have to help them wind down? Crying, whining, moaning, babbling, singing, whatever. They won't always cry. But those people that are SO anti-CIO have no clue what the reasoning is behind why babies cry. You have to tune them out. Bottom line, mom's do what works for them. I was in the same boat as you...seeing me was so stimulating to my baby she would fight sleep. So keep on keepin' on. You did a great job!

Charlotte - posted on 06/11/2009

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Ive never got information from any books or doctors about sleeping and my baby has been sleeping very well since 4 months. i found tht the more of a routine i have the better he slept. if you dont wanna let her cry then dont, i never let my son cry for long because i give in but i just keep going in and putting his dummy in with no interatction and no eye contact so that he knows im only coming in to put his dummy bk in and he goes to sleep after i put his dummy in about 2 times

Sarah - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Laura:

I find that there are different types of crying. I will put my son in his crib and let him do his whining crying but if he gets his "I need you " cry going I immediately go get him out of the crib, he will usually get the hint that it is bed time. After about a week of this, he no longer cries when it is bed time. He might babble for a few minutes but he doesn't cry unless he is still hungry. I have been told by many health care specialists that if you allow your baby to cry when they are really crying, the "i need you" cry, this just makes them cry more because they aren't going to feel as secure that you are going to come hold them when they need it. This is also argued the other way around. Try it one way for a week and if that doesn't work, then switch and try it the other way for a week. For me personally, I do my own method. The "whine it out" so long as he is just whining, I let him whine, once he starts crying, I console him. Works great for me, but no 2 babies are the same. Good Luck.


the 'whine it out' i LOVE that!! :)

Melissa - posted on 06/11/2009

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Hi Kate,
I'm so sorry to hear you're having trouble with sleeping and crying. My daughter is now 10 months old, she's breastfed and she's been sleeping through the night since she was 4 months old. We put her down awake and never rock her to sleep. Why am I telling you all this??? Because the only thing that worked was letting her cry. I HATED IT!!! But it works. There's a fine line between feeding into your child's crying and breaking the trust that they have knowing you'll come back to help them. I would suggest rocking your daughter until she's drowsy but not asleep then lay her down. She'll probably cry. Let her cry for 10 minutes and then go back and check on her but DON'T pick her up or feed her. Then leave and let her cry for 15 minutes...keep repeating this process. It will probably take a few days, maybe a week b/c she's older. When my daughter gets out of her routine or starts waking up in the middle of the night I go back to square one. She'll cry for a few minutes and then go back to sleep. Within a night or two she'll realize that her crying isn't working and she stops waking up.

That being said if something is wrong with your baby don't let her cry endlessly. A few weeks back I gave my daughter Motrin for teething about an hour before bed, under doctor's advice. After I put her to bed she started screaming. She was arching her back and yelling out in pain. She would fall asleep and then jolt awake obvious that something was bothering her. It turned out she was having an allergic reaction to Motrin. I knew this wasn't a time to just let her cry it out.

You'll know when something is wrong and when your baby just wants you to be there. Trust your gut, and remember a little crying isn't going to hurt her.

If you're interested here's a lot of great advice on baby sleep and crying help.

http://newmamascorner.blogspot.com/2009/...

Laura - posted on 06/11/2009

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I find that there are different types of crying. I will put my son in his crib and let him do his whining crying but if he gets his "I need you " cry going I immediately go get him out of the crib, he will usually get the hint that it is bed time. After about a week of this, he no longer cries when it is bed time. He might babble for a few minutes but he doesn't cry unless he is still hungry. I have been told by many health care specialists that if you allow your baby to cry when they are really crying, the "i need you" cry, this just makes them cry more because they aren't going to feel as secure that you are going to come hold them when they need it. This is also argued the other way around. Try it one way for a week and if that doesn't work, then switch and try it the other way for a week. For me personally, I do my own method. The "whine it out" so long as he is just whining, I let him whine, once he starts crying, I console him. Works great for me, but no 2 babies are the same. Good Luck.

Sarah - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Guggie:



Quoting Sarah:




Quoting Guggie:





Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?









holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.










 










Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.










 










The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.










http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...










 










I just googled and found this:











http://www.slate.com/id/2020/










 










this handout has 15 strong citations:










http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...










 












ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!








also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.








and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.








:)










Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.






 






Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.






 





ok, so like 10yrs ago they suggested that babies should sleep on their tummy's, that has now changed.......medical advice changes all the time, so i personally would look at the more recent studies into things.



i'm not gonna get into vaccinations, that's a whole other thread! lol!



i'm sure you know far more about an infants brain than i do, i'm sure what you're saying is true, however personally, i haven't seen any adverse effects on my kids by letting them cry a little bit now and then. :)

Meagan - posted on 06/11/2009

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Guggie may sound rude with her responses but she does have some valid points. She seems to understand infant brain development quite well. I too have studied development and she is right that a 6 week old cannot and does not have the skills to manipulate their parents. However, the way it is being said is very condescending.
Also, she said "fully" vaccinate your child. Which does not mean that she isn't vaccinating at all. It means that she has read up on the vaccines and the science behind them and has made an informed decision about which ones to give her child.
As mothers. we are all in the same boat and we all need to be understanding when it comes to the way that people parent. They do what works for them, in their part of the world. So instead of trashing people, pointing out their flaws and using this forum to attack someone.. watch how you say things and realize that these are real people with real issues reading these posts. It might not change your day with how you respond but it will definitely change someone else's.

Sara - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Guggie:




Quoting Sarah:





Quoting Guggie:






Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?











holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.












 












Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.












 












The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.












http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...












 












I just googled and found this:













http://www.slate.com/id/2020/












 












this handout has 15 strong citations:












http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...












 















ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!










also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.










and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.










:)













Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.








 








Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.








 







OMG!!!  Sarah Moulton!  You are a horrible mom because you vaccinate and sleep train.  Don't you know you are damaging your very young child?  I mean, I would much rather not vaccinate my child or sleep train them but rather teach them to be a judgmental person who likes to put other people down for their parenting choices, because I, like my child will someday, know everything.  You should really follow my lead.  I mean, I've never even read Ferber's book, but clearly, it's wrong!  :)

Guggie - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Sarah:



Quoting Guggie:




Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?







holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.








 








Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.








 








The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.








http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...








 








I just googled and found this:









http://www.slate.com/id/2020/








 








this handout has 15 strong citations:








http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...








 









ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!






also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.






and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.






:)






Dismissing citations due to age is rarely prudent! For example I am sure you fully vaccinate your child but the vaccine schedule is based on very old studies.



 



Anyways I did not notice she was not looking for opinions from only mothers who have tried this method before. I hope she does some research on the physiology of the developing infant brain. The (current, not outdated) research in neuroscience is very clear that stress on the human fetus and neonate can negatively affect the endocrine and neurological systems and result in irrepairable harm.



 

Nadia - posted on 06/11/2009

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Oops, typing error, my son is 8 months not 3. Reading all these posts maybe I should try c.i.o. again. It just not that easy as it sounds...

Ez - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Meagan:
 What worked and has been working for us is.. I put a baby sleep cd on for her and I sit beside the bed until she falls alseep. At first I started with a hand on her so that she knew that I was there. After that I started just sitting by her and my presence seemed to be enough. Now, I can put her in bed, say our goodnights and walk out the door. The first night, it took her about an hour and a half to fall asleep. Now it takes her maybe 5-10 minutes. This all took about 3 months total before I could just walk out the door. For me, 3 months was nothing because I didn't want my daughter to feel like I was abandoning her.


This is almost EXACTLY how I sleep-trained my daughter!! She was only 9 weeks old at the time which is far too young for CIO (which I don't personally like but each to their own), so I found this method much gentler and just as effective. I would lay her down and walk out. When she cried - and the first few times she did - I went back in, gave her a pat, a 'sshhh' and stood next to the cot with my hand on her chest. Then I would just have to be in the room, and in a couple of days I could just walk out. Sometimes she'd have a little grizzle for a few minutes on her way to sleep, sometimes she'd not say boo. I guess the thing with CIO is getting to know your baby's cry, and realising everyone's definition of a 'cry' is different.



ps - My daughter has had a virus, been teething and now has an ear infection so I'm obviously back to holding her to sleep.

Ez - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Meagan:
 What worked and has been working for us is.. I put a baby sleep cd on for her and I sit beside the bed until she falls alseep. At first I started with a hand on her so that she knew that I was there. After that I started just sitting by her and my presence seemed to be enough. Now, I can put her in bed, say our goodnights and walk out the door. The first night, it took her about an hour and a half to fall asleep. Now it takes her maybe 5-10 minutes. This all took about 3 months total before I could just walk out the door. For me, 3 months was nothing because I didn't want my daughter to feel like I was abandoning her.


This is almost EXACTLY how I sleep-trained my daughter!! She was only 9 weeks old at the time which is far too young for CIO (which I don't personally like but each to their own), so I found this method much gentler and just as effective. I would lay her down and walk out. When she cried - and the first few times she did - I went back in, gave her a pat, a 'sshhh' and stood next to the cot with my hand on her chest. Then I would just have to be in the room, and in a couple of days I could just walk out. Sometimes she'd have a little grizzle for a few minutes on her way to sleep, sometimes she'd not say boo. I guess the thing with CIO is getting to know your baby's cry, and realising everyone's definition of a 'cry' is different.



ps - My daughter has had a virus, been teething and now has an ear infection so I'm obviously back to holding her to sleep.

Nadia - posted on 06/11/2009

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Hi Kate, I can totally relate to what your saying. My baby, also 3 months just cries longer each night. Longer and louder, and I am not the kind of mother who can ignore this. (said with respect to those who can). When I go back and cuddle for a while, just to calm him down, the screams are worst. But you know,the bad thing is, as soon as I step into the room, he smiles at me. So I try to sing to him, he would start laughing or do some cute thing. How can I just leave him when he doesnt want to be alone. So, my new technique is. . .I'm a working mom, so he eats about half past five. So, then we play with him and just before bed time.(Eight) He takes a nice long bath, I put him in his crib, on his side with his bottle. As he drinks, a rub his back (never leave him alone with a bottle. He falls asleep while drinking the bottle or he takes out the bottle, make a few movements and sleep. (This hasnt worked everytime but most times). I know I am supposed to let him self sooth, so I have been giving him a teddy to rub as he drinks. So maybe later on I will try and put him in his crib with just his teddy. And as for the "sleep training" she obviously has no children. All children differs, some sleep through from 3 months others not. It is not always the technique you use but the baby's personality. I really wish you luck and thanks for asking this question, I have also learned sooo much. P.S Cuddle is fun for both mum and baby don't feel guilty.

Sarah - posted on 06/11/2009

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Quoting Guggie:



Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?





holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.






 






Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.






 






The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.






http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...






 






I just googled and found this:







http://www.slate.com/id/2020/






 






this handout has 15 strong citations:






http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...






 





ok, firstly, all those sites you've posted are about 10yrs old!



also, if you search the internet you can find just as many sites that say CIO when used properly will do no harm.



and finally, the OP clearly stated a few times now that she didn't want to hear from people who were anti-CIO.



:)

Guggie - posted on 06/10/2009

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Quoting Kimberly:

my daughter is 6 weeks old and she is already using the manipulative crying to get me to hold her as much as she can. We let her cry for a little while and if it goes into full blown screaming then we pick her up. But we make sure she has been fed, changed, cuddled and walked before we ever lay her down when she is tired. Crying it out works well if there are limits to letting them cry. Donna does well with the method and i would recommend it for any mom who has the patience to stick it out and not feel completely rotten when their baby cries. It breaks my heart to hear her cry but i know that if i rush to her side at every cry she will grow up quite pampered and clingy and i dont want that.

You aren't a horrible mom by any stretch. Good luck!!!!!!!



hi i have never heard of a 6 week old with the neurological ability to utilize verbal cues to manipulate another person for gratification above basic drives. do you have any links so i can learn more about this?

Guggie - posted on 06/10/2009

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Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?


holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.



 



Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.



 



The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.



http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...



 



I just googled and found this:




http://www.slate.com/id/2020/



 



this handout has 15 strong citations:



http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...



 

Guggie - posted on 06/10/2009

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Quoting Kate:

Thanks for responding! To answer Sarah Moulton, my daughter is 9 months old. I tried the Ferber method when she was about 7 months for maybe 2 days. It was so exhausting and I hated coming in and seeing her shaking and crying and reaching up for me. Just when she settled down, I'd have to leave and she'd freak out all over again. On the second or third night I gave in and picked her up. I then bagged the whole thing, went back to cuddling her to sleep and then tried this new method 2 months later.
How long did it take your children to get self-soothing?


holy crap! I didn't know that's what the ferber method was! I can't believe a man can sell books telling mamas to do that to their children.



 



Oh my gosh that is sick and I don't blame you for stopping.



 



The only thing I know about cry it out is that harvard researchers say it can cause anxiety issues and brain damage.



http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...



 



I just googled and found this:




http://www.slate.com/id/2020/



 



this handout has 15 strong citations:



http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/handou...



 

Kylie - posted on 06/10/2009

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Kate it doesn't seem like the CIO sleep training is working.. have you read the no cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantley? It's a gentle way to teach your child to fall asleep on their own and fall back to sleep during the night without needing mum to help. Takes a bit of time but her techniques have been very successful and its a whole lot less stressful than ferberizing.

Kat - posted on 06/10/2009

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My therapist told me to do he Ferber method with my daughter (she has been married for 25+ years and has four children of her own). My dad told me to just let her cry (I have five siblings) his point was that you can tell if your kid is in trouble by the way he or she cries and well, crying never hurt anybody. I found that if i comforted my daughter all the time she was really clingy and wasn't gaining any independence. I tried Ferber's method and after 3 weary nights where I questioned what kind of a mother I was and was guilt ridden she finally slept through the night and continued to do so until we moved two weeks ago (so here we are again, and I'm getting up enough courage to do it again).

[deleted account]

Hey there! Don't worry about being a bad mom! I moved an hour an a half away from my mom when my son was a month old and I was calling her everynight because my son wouldn't sleep very well. He had his days and nights mixed up and he didn't want to sleep without me. My mom told me it is okay for the young baby to cry as long as you are reassuring him/her every so often. So I tried it and it took about three nights and my son was finally sleeping through the night. He would cry and every 10 or 15 minutes or so i would go in and rub his tummy and talk softly to him. Sometimes i would pick him up and hug him or just cradle him for a brief moment and he would calm down and fall asleep. That is what worked for me.

Lara - posted on 06/10/2009

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hi i don't think your a bad mum for letting her cry it out i couldn't do this as when my daughter cries she gets herself so worked up that she stops breathing but like others have said on here all babies are different. i always tried to keep her in a bed routine bath feed and bed and i watched a program called the baby Whisperer and i used the method off there. its like this put them down to sleep if they start crying pick them up but as soon as they stop place them back in the cot and say time for sleep if they keep trying to sit up just keep laying them back down saying the same thing time for sleep try not to give eye contact stay in the room till they fall asleep over a few nights it should take less time for them to fall asleep.this may seem like alot of work but it really worked for me i did it when she was 6 months she is now 14 months and always sleeps though the night i just put her in her cot awake and she gets her self to sleep. again i'm not saying cry it out is bad but this way worked for me and may work for you hope this helps anyway

Kimberly - posted on 06/10/2009

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my daughter is 6 weeks old and she is already using the manipulative crying to get me to hold her as much as she can. We let her cry for a little while and if it goes into full blown screaming then we pick her up. But we make sure she has been fed, changed, cuddled and walked before we ever lay her down when she is tired. Crying it out works well if there are limits to letting them cry. Donna does well with the method and i would recommend it for any mom who has the patience to stick it out and not feel completely rotten when their baby cries. It breaks my heart to hear her cry but i know that if i rush to her side at every cry she will grow up quite pampered and clingy and i dont want that.

You aren't a horrible mom by any stretch. Good luck!!!!!!!

Meagan - posted on 06/10/2009

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I tried Ferber's method as well and it didn't work for my daughter. She, like your daughter, learnt that if she just cried for longer, that I would eventually come back. To me, it felt a lot like letting her cry it out. Which I don't have the heart to do. What worked and has been working for us is.. I put a baby sleep cd on for her and I sit beside the bed until she falls alseep. At first I started with a hand on her so that she knew that I was there. After that I started just sitting by her and my presence seemed to be enough. Now, I can put her in bed, say our goodnights and walk out the door. The first night, it took her about an hour and a half to fall asleep. Now it takes her maybe 5-10 minutes. This all took about 3 months total before I could just walk out the door. For me, 3 months was nothing because I didn't want my daughter to feel like I was abandoning her. Every child is different.. yours may take a month or who knows maybe 6 months but it is worth it. And obviously you know that because you are concerned about it. Best of luck!

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