Are you voting YES or NO?

Jazmyne - posted on 10/27/2012 ( 129 moms have responded )

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On the marriage ammendment? Do you think marriage is for one man one woman, or do you think anyone should have the right to marry no matter their sexual preferance? :) Want to see what everyone thinks about this.

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[deleted account]

History proves the government will fall short every time but the Blessing of God does not. So I will vote whenever the vote agrees with the word of God.

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I'm sorry Janelle but this is worrisome and I'll explain why.



The word of god you choose can be dreadfully harmful to modern society with absolutely no benefit. We would have to change the rape laws to match that which is proscribed by Yahweh. We also would have to change the laws that protect women when they enter into a marriage. No women deserves to be stoned to death for not bleeding on her wedding night. It's also not the business of government to tell me whether I can wear jewelry or makeup.



These items are the word of Yahweh and nothing in the Bible changes these unless we get into a huge discussion on semantics.



Now that being said, I would be a very big idiot if I were to even think about trying to stop a person from voting their conscience. I would never do that. I can only encourage people to think about all sides of the debate.

[deleted account]

"You want to know what rights traditional families have lost ? Take a look at how many of you voted for Obama solely based on gay rights, contraception, immigration policies and hand me downs. What about the middle class families, the backbone of America, the ones that have suffered long enough under the first term of Obama's regime who are now forced to endure another four years of high unemployment, high welfare and a failing economy. Who will help them survive and flourish"



I honestly do not see how you can say that x = y in this argument. Traditional families also use contraception and have for generations upon generations. Immigrants have always brought their different point of view and lifestyle. I mean when the potato famine was going strong, many Irish families fled to the US. One of their earliest points of entry was New Orleans but the local families there did not want the Irish because they (thought) would bring in alcoholism and criminal violence. From New Orleans, the Irish fled north, mostly to NYC and Boston. They were not welcome there either but at least they got to stay.



Both my mother and I are middle class families. Yet we do not agree with you and feel strongly that if the other party had won, we would be in danger of losing rights guaranteed in the Constitution. The Patriot Act already violations the Bill of Rights. I was disappointed that Obama did not repeal that but most people would have flipped. Why? Because they hear "Patriot" Act and never realize what's actually in it. I have been told by people that they would gladly have the BOR repealed so they could stop would-be terrorists. I agree with Benjamin Franklin who said (paraphrasing) that people who are willing to give up any freedoms for security deserve neither.



I firmly believe that if the other side had won, we would see religious intrusion in public life. I really do and that scares me a hell of a lot more than the gay couple next door adopting a child, etc. While you could make an inference about homosexuality and government stability, I can point out time and time again where governments committed actual atrocities when religion entered the scene.



"I believe that children need a father and mother figure in their lives. "



I don't disagree but often that just isn't the case and it has zilch to do with gays or who sits in the White House. I mean, under Clinton, we saw abortions drop in number yet increase under W. Bush. Is there a connection, I can't say but I can infer it just as you do with gay marriage and societal health.



"It is my opinion that the legalization of gay marriage creates future problems. If we allow gay couples to get married shouldn't we allow everyone else to practice their own alternative form of marriage such as polygamy? Where will we draw the line on what's ethical and unethical."



I don't see how you can go from one to the other. Where can we draw the line on religious intrusion in public life?



"

Another reason why I am against gay marriage is adoption rights. I am against gay married couples adopting girls from the most popular provider of adopted children - China - who practices one-child policy and boys are preferred. Why are we encouraging such trade to continue to exist. Why isn`t China held accountable for its actions. Take a look at its gender imbalance and number of forced abortions! "



Now this one got me a little heated. China's had started the work to reduce its population as early as 1949. This was back in the oft-dreamed of halcyon days of the perfect nuclear family of Ward and June Cleaver. Of course, that's not how US society actually functioned but who's counting.



"Marriages are on the downfall, couples are having less kids and our population is aging. We are slowly dying out and people want to concentrate more and more on gay rights. We have become the minority group. Where is our help! Where is our support! Who will stand up for our struggling and often failed marriages. There was a saying ``It takes a village to raise a child``. Well, in my town alone, I am one of two families struggling to raise children on our own. The rest of the town is made up of seniors, single parents, baby mothers and grandparents stuck raising their children. Do you find this picture familiar?"



I think marriages could be on the decline because it's no longer essential for women to get married in order to be supported. While certainly married women worked in all our history (and not just part time jobs for extras.) it was no longer seen as the onlyl option beyond being a nurse or a schoolteacher. I'll never understand the derision towards the village saying. Is it that wrong to consider that one's neighbor or Grandmother might want to help? Personally I think unwed mothers suffer most from the attitude drawn from the 1950s that there are girls you marry and girls you date.



And what help do you need? I openly admit my ignorance of Canadian assistance programs but perhaps you can enlighten me?

Mary - posted on 11/11/2012

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Ummm....I am a member of a middle class family in America. Despite what you claim, my family and I are most decidedly better off than we were 4 years ago. In October of 2008, before Obama had even won his first election, the economy was going to absolute shit. My husband and I were married in 2007, but because the housing bubble had already burst, we were not having any luck in selling his house. We had two mortgages, both worked full time, and I was 36 weeks pregnant. That's when my husband got laid off. It was the scariest, most vulnerable time in my life. Please note, this was during the baby Bush presidency.



We were lucky for a variety of reasons. I have always been on the frugal side, and since I was "older", I did have a rather hefty savings account to carry us through those lean times. I won't go through all the details of our personal recovery, but I will summarize with this: by the fall of 2010, we were able to sell that second house - not at a profit, but at least without a loss. My husband was again employed, and I was finally able to stop working full time nights and stay home with our daughter. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this "traditional family" is most clearly flourishing, and our recovery occurred during Obama's presidency.



I should also note that one of the many reasons I feel strongly about mandatory contraception coverage is that I am an L&D nurse who worked for a Catholic hospital for 20 years. After my daughter was born, I was the carrier of our health insurance for the first year and half. Since my employer was Catholic, and this was before the Affordable Care Act, they were still able to impose their religious beliefs on my healthcare coverage. In other words, despite the hefty deductions being taken out of my paycheck every month for insurance, I had to pay even more for birth control. You may not realize this, but when you do not have insurance coverage, you are charged even more for a drug or procedure, because you lose that group rate/insurance discount. This was at a time when money was extremely tight, and I was down to pennies in my account a few days before payday. I really did not have the "extra" money to spend on contraception, and another baby would have financially destroyed us. Again, I was just lucky. As an L&D nurse, I was friends with my OB - and she provided contraception for me for free. Contraception is not just a social issue - it is very much an economical one as well. It is of vital importance to many "traditional families". Funnily enough, those gays you don't much care for don't need contraception, but an increase in the number of unwanted babies might be a benefit to them ;)



Contraception is also a huge deal as it relates to human overpopulation. Despite your concerns about the declining birthrate in Canada, the actual reality is that the overall human population has been steadily and alarmingly increasing since the 1400's. Their has been a moderate decline in the birthrate since the 1980's, but not nearly enough. The current world population is estimated to be about 7 billion; projections for the year 2050 by the UN are over 9 billion. The earth simply cannot sustain a much larger world population. We are running out of resources, and are destroying the planet in the process. It may not be an immediate threat to my current "traditional family" - but the future for my daughter's family, and that of her children's is looking pretty grim. Funnily enough, most of the projected population growth by the UN is expected to occur in underdeveloped countries, with the one exception being America, whose population is expected to grow by over 40% between now and 2050. I'd say contraception is pretty dog-damned important for the protection and future of the traditional family unit.



I don't "like" the policies in China; they make me physically ill, to be honest. However, there is no denying that they have been effective in curbing overpopulation in that country. India is now a pretty sure bet to surpass China in number of citizens by 2025. There is also no denying that their success in reducing their population growth has enabled them to improve their rate of economic growth. Again, the horror stories of forced abortions, abandoned infants, and "at birth abortions" break my heart and make me sick. Affordable and accessible contraception are critical in preventing future generations from having to engage in similar practices.

[deleted account]

Darn, this one got interesting...Sorry I missed it :(



I'll admit I only skimmed the last 6 pages, so maybe I'll say something that's been said, but a few things stuck out to me.

(And Karla, I love your numbering, so I'm going to borrow if you don't mind)



1. Allowing someone to enter a marriage with someone of their same sex does not in anyway take away anyone else's right to enter a marriage with someone of the opposite sex. They are independent of each other. If you think that same sex marriage is somehow unethical, don't partake in one. YOU decide who takes part and is included in your marriage, I decide who takes part in mine. The person Ed decides to marry does not effect who you can marry (unless Ed is marrying the man you want to marry....did you want to marry a gay person? I could see how that might influence your opinion because if the gay person you want to marry is allowed to marry another man, he wouldn't marry you....but then, if he's gay, I don't think it would work out between the two of you anyway.)



2. Allowing 3 people to enter into a marriage does not in anyway take away anyone else's right to enter into a marriage with only one other person. That said, it could get tricky in the civil rights department--like who is covered as spouse on insurance policies, how taxes would be filed, etc. In a marriage between 2 people, those things are unaffected by the sexes of the people, but the number of people in the union could have a serious impact if the numbers got rather big. That said, it could help you out with that gay man you've hypothetically got your eye on, because then, he could marry both you, and the other man, BUT if you didn't want that, you would still have the right to refuse to marry--see, everyone has equal rights in that situation.



3. The Roman empire was one of the strongest and longest living empires in history. Throughout most of its history, and during it strongest times, the Roman Empire embraced homosexuality. Then, shortly after its embrace of Christianity and the outlawing of homosexuality, it quickly declined and ultimately fell apart. I cannot say that the Roman Empire fell because it embraced Christianity, that's a pretty major stretch--there were lots of factors involved--but it makes more sense than saying it fell because it embraced homosexuality during the time of its greatest strength and Christianity during its decline....

Mary - posted on 11/11/2012

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I don't know if Northern has given up on this conversation, but there was one more point I wanted to address.



"The rest of the town is made up of seniors, single parents, baby mothers and grandparents stuck raising their children. Do you find this picture familiar? "



You'll be relieved to know that the answer to this question is actually no. I live in the state of Maryland. It is unarguably a very liberal and democratic state. There was no question that we would resoundingly support Obama. We have legalized marriage equality, both though legislation and popular vote. We also, through referendum, resoundingly passed our own state-level version of the Dream Act for "illegal" immigrant children.



When I look around at my immediate neighborhood, my daughter's preschool class, and the families I have met through storytime at the local library, the rec council sponsored summer camp she attended, her ballet and gymnastics camps...the vast majority of these children come from homes that would meet your definition of the "traditional family unit". Out of my own personal circle of friends, which includes those from grade school, high school, college, and 20 years as a nurse, all but one of them is still married to their original spouse. I am by no means claiming that single parents and teen pregnancy are not present here; I worked in L&D, so I could tell stories that would give you nightmares for eternity :P What I am saying is that your depiction of what is "normal" in your Canadian town is not even remotely representative of what is normal in my liberal, pro-Obama town, county, or state.

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Bridget - posted on 12/13/2013

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Hello , I personally think everyone should have the same rights , life is far too short👍👍👍

Sarah - posted on 12/07/2013

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I think people should have equal rights. I think the blacks women and gays should never have to even be segregated and have to be put in the corner. I hate that freedom is for the straight white man. Why do the others have to work so hard for basic rights? And god? What does this entity REALLY believe? Well honestly, i think gay people were put here to divide the human race into more groups people can hate. Its a test! God LOVES all. No way would he really believe being born gay is a sin. A being of infinit wisdome and love would never hate a homosexual. Plus most homosexuals love god back. So if religion is the only reason not to let homosexuals get married legally isnt that wrong? Those are two separate things. Saying god hates gays is just a copout because there are individuals who hate gays. Which is wrong. Some people need to step back and actually consider why they are hating a specific group. Prejudice is NOT what Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, god practice. Saying no to same sex marriage is just spreding more hate in my opinion

Mother - posted on 11/14/2013

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All for gay marriage!!! You can't help who you fall in love with. And its no one's business who another wants to marry.

Amanda - posted on 11/18/2012

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I saw who ever wants to get married should get married! I don't know why people are so scared of gay marriages. If you look all through history you can see gay relationships. Alexander the Great had many gay relationships for one. The concept of homosexuality did not exist in Ancient Greece and many men had lovers of either sex. Socrates. Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum (First recorded gay lovers buried embracing each other and holding hands. Egyptian royal servants) King David of Israel (Read the bible it is all in there). Nero was the first Roman Emperor to marry a man! Hadrian again a roman emperor. Richard the Lion Hearted of England. Leonardo da Vinci. Oda Nobunaga from Japan. And the ever famous Abraham Lincoln wrote letters to men signed yours forever. It was excepted in Ancient times so why are we scared of it now. Men from the bible were gay. Oddly its the churches who don't want this to happen but many priest, fathers or whatever the head of the church happens to be have been charged with abusing male children, soooo again I ask why are they stopping it if they could be gay. I say let them get married and let them adopt because a home of two men or two women is better then no home at all. EQUALITY TO ALL AND FREEDOM TO MARRY WHO EVER YOU WANT!!

Janelle - posted on 11/15/2012

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There is a blessing in honoring God. Whether we stand united to support Israel because the Lord told them "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you" or if it's making a stand for marriage being between a man and a woman.



I have to vote my morals because I trust in the Blessing of God to support me and my family. He is my source of income and health care not the government.



History proves the government will fall short every time but the Blessing of God does not. So I will vote whenever the vote agrees with the word of God.



With that said, I have no hate for gay people. I love them and all people just as God loves the world. But I need the Blessing of God on the USA so I will honor Him.

Jodi - posted on 11/14/2012

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That's a good one Karla, because it will really drive home the point to the students as to WHY they shouldn't ever use Wikipedia as a reference, but rather, go to the original source to check the credibility. I have even taught college (Year 11/12) students who still use Wikipedia as their primary reference on their major assignments, and I start looking for a brick wall.....



But honestly, if you go to Wikipedia, it actually states "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" and " Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles, except in limited cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism. Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or, if they choose to, with their real identity." and "Students should never use information in Wikipedia (or any other online encyclopedia) for formal purposes (such as school essays) until they have verified and evaluated the information based on external sources. For this reason, Wikipedia, like any encyclopedia, is a great starting place for research but not always a great ending place."

Karla - posted on 11/14/2012

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It can still be edited by anyone. It makes for a really good classroom lesson - Edit a Wikipedia page with incorrect facts and get the students to research to correct them



Well that's rather scary and annoying, isn't it?



I have another classroom lesson for you to try... have the class add 1 Wikipedia false information entry and monitor it to see how long it takes (if ever) to be flagged or taken down. Something harmless though, you don't want a bunch of people citing the entry to back their claims that a nuclear attack is planned, or some such.

Jodi - posted on 11/13/2012

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"It's really not that bad anymore... the owner of the site has put a lot of effort into insuring the validity of the entries there. If I'm not mistaken, the site no longer allows just anyone to install an entry."



It can still be edited by anyone. It makes for a really good classroom lesson - Edit a Wikipedia page with incorrect facts and get the students to research to correct them :P

[deleted account]

Oh yeah sure Jen, coming from a non religious individual who condones polygamy like you.

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I'm sorry, I have to get some clarification. Was that meant as an insult or praise? I do find it odd. Oh btw, you do know that you cannot be a socialist and a communist at the same time. That would be like being both a Christian and a Wiccan at the same time.

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Well, good luck to you ladies ... and to United States ... if there ever will be one in the near future.

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Why do you live in Canada? It absolutely is socialist and has socialized medicine?



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I am glad I have participated in this debate to see for myself just how twisted the mind of a liberal extremist really is.

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We're glad to have you.

Karla - posted on 11/13/2012

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I am glad I have participated in this debate to see for myself just how twisted the mind of a liberal extremist really is.



That ^^^ is why I don't often try to debate these things.

(Sorry - I'm slipping into my numbering habit.) IMO:

1. OPINIONS are confused with FACTS.

2. My points are rarely addressed.

3. Suddenly the other debater decides she's done and all those with opinions different then hers are "twisted."

4. People accuse others of not budging but cannot see that they themselves will not budge either. - I never expected you to change your mind N.M. - I only wanted to express my opinion. You said I didn't believe in freedom of speech when I was in fact practicing my freedom of speech. You said America was on the same path as the Roman Empire - but when faced with the facts you excuse your view by saying "it takes time." You indicated you have good sources to base your opinion on, but haven't really produced them.

5. Please N.M. do debate on other threads... send my a private message and maybe I'll join in if you really want to hear my point of view.

Karla - posted on 11/13/2012

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(off topic observation)

Jodi -

"I've gathered some facts from Wikipedia"



LOL, that's a bit of an oxymoron.




It's really not that bad anymore... the owner of the site has put a lot of effort into insuring the validity of the entries there. If I'm not mistaken, the site no longer allows just anyone to install an entry.



Having said that, I do think this legitimate encyclopedia is a better way to go...

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...

Karla - posted on 11/13/2012

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So Karla do you want to discuss Petraeus' resignation questioned over role in Benghazi scandal ?

Perhaps you would like to open up another debate on the endless corruption in the Obama Administration.




So, you're done with this debate then?



If you want to discuss Petraeus' resignation, then go ahead and start a new conversation.



As for me, I don't think there's enough information out yet. I would suggest you listen to National Public Radio (NPR) News rather than whatever you are listening to. They interview people who actually know about the laws and the CIA, etc.

Northern - posted on 11/13/2012

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Oh yeah sure Jen, coming from a non religious individual who condones polygamy like you.



Well, good luck to you ladies ... and to United States ... if there ever will be one in the near future.



I am glad I have participated in this debate to see for myself just how twisted the mind of a liberal extremist really is.

[deleted account]

So Karla do you want to discuss Petraeus' resignation questioned over role in Benghazi scandal ?

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I put that on par with Colin Powell's resignation after his speech to the UN about the weapons of mass destruction.



Both were wrong.

Jodi - posted on 11/13/2012

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"I've gathered some facts from Wikipedia"



LOL, that's a bit of an oxymoron.

[deleted account]

I hightly doubt it's worse than the previous admin. However I know that two wrongs don't make a right. At least Obama did not pass legislation with pseudo patriotic sounding names that violoate the country's greatest document. (The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.)



I calld him King George because he could do anything, call it a form of patriotism and get it passed. His party has a knack for this. The term enemy combatant for example,should put fear into any red-blooded American's heart. Under the terms of the Patriot Act, any citizen can be taken into custody without a warrant or even a handful of evidence. For example, I could be taken into custody and sent to Gitmo simply for posting something that was Anti-Bush. Now I have no problem with people being arrested and facing punishment after following the rules of the BoR. People who think they are uber-patriots may think the Patriot Act are only happy when it's people they don't like being affected. The minute it's then, they complain about bad things in the current guy's watch. I can give examples if need be.



Like it or not, Christians in the USA are stilll given preferential treatment which leads to discrimination in many areas. One of those is in the gay marriage debate. Now NorthernMom,. I don't know what your faith (if any) is and I'm keen to know even if it has no relevance. However so-called Christians who treat their religion like a cafeteria of choices are the main reason anti-gay legislation is still in effect. I forget what year it was that homosexuality was de-criminalized in Texas but it was fought against by (primarily) religious folks who want to disregard the BoR and the Constitution whenever it suits them.



Now Northern Mom, you were very careful not to say that the Roman Empire was brought to its knees by its liberal attitude towards homosexuality but that was the impression I got. I'm very pleased that you clarified your position. Thank you.



When we review history of the Roman Empire, the case could be made that it was after Constantine converted that things went haywire. However, it's pure speculation which means we should probably not use conjecture for either position. That being the case, how do you support your argument that a country which embraces homosexuality is on the decline? Societies rise and fall throughout history. We're a young nation comparatively speaking.



As to immigration, I again refer to what posted regarding Irish immigrants, many of whom were illegal. The first main landing point of Irish immigrants was New Orleans where hey were basically kicked out.. They people there did not want a bunch of drunken, disease-ridden, Catholic n'er do wells. Consider the predjudice against Polish immigrants that carries on to this day. Where I live I'm still likely to year the word "Polack" instead of "Mick" but then I do live in an area where you are either Irish, Italian or Polish - in that order. The arguments against Hispanic immigrants really isn't much different than the ones against the groups listed above. I mean, the Irish are a bunch of violent drunks, the Italians brought organized crime and the Polish are just plain stupid. Now I certainly don't believe any of that but historically, we do like to attack the most recent groups of immigrants wherever they hail from.

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You stated "You want to know what rights traditional families have lost? Take a look at how many of you voted for Obama solely based on gay rights, contraception, immigration policies and hand me downs. What about the middle class families, the backbone of America, the ones that have suffered long enough under the first term of Obama's regime who are now forced to endure another four years of high unemployment, high welfare and a failing economy. Who will help them survive and flourish"

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Do you think that middle class families do not use contraception or are against immigration? I am a middle class family and you do not speak for me. Much of what Obama had to deal with was clearly inherited from the two previous adminiatrations and I really don't think you can contradict that without inventing facts. The country is clearly now starting to bounce back.



I think we could do better without treating certain groups like they are better than all of us. I happen to believe in equality for all. That means treating the white man the same as I would treat a hispanic homosexual. First and foremost that means I give neither any more credence based solely on what they look like. I can't tell yoiu how much I thrilled to hear our President include non-believers in his first inaugural address. I want to see the atheist given the same rights and freedoms and protections under ther law as a Christian. For example some states still require you to belong to some religion before you can run for political office despite the fact that the Constitution clearly states that there be no religious tests to run for office. I'm feeling lazy so I won't look up the states (I used to know them by heart but that was before I had ECT.....sigh) It was really nice to hear that Obama considered us atheists part of the country. We're still reeling from President H Bush stating that we atheists could neither be considered patriots or citizens.



I wasn't able to get to the polls this year because I'm not allowed to drive currently BUT I would have voted for Obama if I could have because I think he represents the views I feel are important. I love my country and am proud to be a citizen. I was a Rainbow Girl growing up and used to be able to recite most of the Flag code.



I'm sorry, I went off topic there. I am glad we are giving our homosexual citiizens the same rights are heteros. If they want to marry, it's not my business and it's not yours. Not anymore than when Elizabeth Taylor married the number of times that she did.

Northern - posted on 11/13/2012

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The fall of a civilization doesn't happen over night Karla. It's a gradual decline and the new Christian laws took time to get reinforced.



So Karla do you want to discuss Petraeus' resignation questioned over role in Benghazi scandal ?

Perhaps you would like to open up another debate on the endless corruption in the Obama Administration.

Karla - posted on 11/12/2012

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N.M: Glenn Beck likes to take history and twist it just enough to fit his agenda and promote both conspiracy theories and his idea of ethics. Those who do not know better will not do their own research and they believe Beck without a second thought. Your assertion that we are on the same path as the Roman Empire based on support of gay marriage reminded me so much of Beck that I looked it up and found that he too makes that assertion. If you looked at the first link I offered you will see that reputable historians tell a different story.



It’s not that we shouldn’t learn from history, but rather we should not bend history to favor our point of view. The issue of homosexuality was basically a non-issue for hundreds of years in the Roman Empire. The fall of the Roman Empire came later when wars and the economy were challenging the government.



My first comment in this thread was to answer the OP “On the marriage amendment? Do you think marriage is for one man one woman, or do you think anyone should have the right to marry no matter their sexual preferences? :) Want to see what everyone thinks about this.



As for the FREEDOM of SPEECH: I was using my freedom of speech in saying that an individual’s opinion of marriage rights is not the issue. The issue is that people who are in monogamous adult long term committed relationships are being refused the right to marry, hence my view "I think both ethically and legally they should have the same rights as all people and be allowed to marry their partner."



I am much more baffled by the attitude that anyone should have the right to refuse others a basic human right such as marrying the one they love. I’m baffled that anyone would use their religion and bits of history (not a true perspective) as an attempt to create a pseudo foundation to refuse rights to members of our community.



It’s abundantly clear that not everybody in the US shares the same opinions, but that doesn’t make your opinion more ethical than mine, though you’ve made it clear that you think it does.



Are you telling me Karla that all people are easily deceived by media coverage? I believe that many Americans are knowledgeable and perceptive enough to examine the reality of sorrowful state of US economy. Its more than media coverage! Its people's lives that are being affected all across United States that influence people to vote. And not everybody uses Facebook ( I don't).



My comments were in response to your view “The last four divided your country.”

Do I think people are easily deceived? I know many people who have not learned the art of critical thinking and yes, these people are easily deceived. If they hear something or read something that is said with authority they forget to consider the source, or to check it against factual information. There’s a saying, don’t let the facts get in the way of your truth. (Kind of like: don’t let the facts get in the way of your opinion)



I’ve not been very involved in this conversation partly because it’s already an uneven debate and partly because when debating with someone who would use their religion and would pick & choose what has historical importance, I have learned that it’s nearly pointless to debate them. You are so sure you are right, you will not budge or even acknowledge how it must feel to be in a relationship where you want to make the marriage commitment but are refused by your society. If you have no empathy for the people in that situation, how would I ever convince you that you are promoting inequality and discrimination? I can’t, but I certainly hold the opinion that you are promoting inequality & discrimination.



You got me with “the last 4 years” statement though. That’s just bullshit, and I’ve been around long enough to know bullshit when I smell it. You want to talk about what divides our country? I would first point to pundits who get on their soapbox with propaganda and hate speech in attempts to demonize “those” people. Us vs. them mentality is quite a money maker but it also divides us more than most anything else and with a faulty ideology that reeks of bigotry. The propaganda spreads and folks repeat it not even realizing where it originated.



Your link didn’t seem to work, but according to other entries on wiki – Nero (Reign 54-68 A.D.) married a man… and 300 years later the Christian emperor Constantius II outlawed gay marriage (342 A.D.) and the traditional date of the fall of the Roman Empire (476 A.D.) came more than 100 years after that… so how exactly does this history back your claims?

Northern - posted on 11/12/2012

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Karla B. welcome back to the debate :)



First of all I dont listen to Glen Beck. I never did. I dont know where Glen Beck entered our conversation here. I've heard someone else use the term " Annointed One" and I fell in love with it! In my opinion, the nickname best suits a lame duck, socialist president who successfully polarized a country, leading it to its demise.



Karla, your first comment on the debate was:



"It doesn't matter what I believe or don't believe. What matters is that there are people out there who want to marry their partner and are not allowed to, I think both ethically and legally they should have the same rights as all people and be allowed to marry their partner."



What do you mean it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe. Have we lost freedom of speech in America ? Not everybody shares your opinion on ethics Karla and thank God we are still able to express and stand up for our beliefs in America.

_____________________________________________________________________



Jodi said: " As a teacher of history (and other humanities), if a student gave me an assignment about gays bringing down the Roman and Greek Empires, I'd give it a Fail because there is absolutely no fact to back up such ludicrous assertions. But thanks for the laugh :)"

______________________________________________________________________



This comment left me speechless. First of all I never said the gays brought the Roman and Greek Empires down, I said that any society that embraces homosexuality is a society on the decline. Anyway, I find your message very alarming. So what you are basically saying Jodi is that if one of your students is offering a different point of view you would fail that student ? Hey, you wrote it. You are a teacher of history and other humanities and you would fail a student based on difference in opinion! Wow, I am utterly speechless.

______________________________________________________________________

Karla said:

"I've just got to say, that anyone who thinks it was the last 4 years that divided the US needs to look at our history: at our elections and propaganda throughout out history. What makes this year seem more divisive is the media coverage, the fear mongering done by Right Wing pundits as well as some Left Wing pundits, and the INTERNET. I know people from other countries who come on Facebook and see all the Political Memes and think they are a true and honest representation of what's happening in daily life here, but they are not. "



Are you telling me Karla that all people are easily deceived by media coverage ? I believe that many Americans are knowledgeable and perceptive enough to examine the reality of sorrowful state of US economy. Its more than media coverage! Its people's lives that are being affected all across United States that influence people to vote. And not everybody uses Facebook ( I don't).

_____________________________________________________________________

Karla: "sure some historians include moral decay as a problem in the fall of Rome -- a minute problem in a large and complicated government and society. As you read about it though, the "moral decay" issues that were happening were sex parties, someone keeping a harem of boy sex slaves, bestiality and forced prostitution. So if one wants to use the moral decay of the Roman Empire as an abject lesson, attack the sex slave industry - it's a huge problem. "



First of all, one of the reasons behind the fall of the Roman Empire is the decay in ethics and morality as much as you all want to deny it. Are you going to fail me on my opinion Jodi because there is a lot of evidence to back me up. Unless of course you want to argue ethics and morality.



I believe gay marriage is highly unethical.



I've gathered some facts from Wikipedia on same sex marriage in the Roman Empire:



A same-sex union was known in Ancient Greece and Rome. These gay unions continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Amongst the Romans, there were instances of same-sex marriages being performed, as evidenced by emperors Nero and Elagabalus who married men.

In Hellenic Greece, the pederastic relationships between Greek men (erastes) and youths (eromenos) were similar to marriage in that the age of the youth was similar to the age at which women married (the mid-teens, though in some city states, as young as age seven), and the relationship could only be undertaken with the consent of the father.

Numerous examples of same sex unions among peers, not age-structured, are found in Ancient Greek writings.



I can go on but you can read the rest by clicking on the link below.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...

Karla - posted on 11/12/2012

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I've just got to say, that anyone who thinks it was the last 4 years that divided the US needs to look at our history: at our elections and propaganda throughout out history. What makes this year seem more divisive is the media coverage, the fear mongering done by Right Wing pundits as well as some Left Wing pundits, and the INTERNET. I know people from other countries who come on Facebook and see all the Political Memes and think they are a true and honest representation of what's happening in daily life here, but they are not.



In reality (as opposed to virtual reality) for the most part people in the US get along with one another despite differing political views. In reality, most people in the US are too busy working and taking care of family to "like" all the political propaganda coming their way, or to be bothered by the likes of extremist pundits such as Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, or Dennis Miller and their ilk.



I only take a passing notice of them to help explain to me where all this misinformation is coming from.



For instance Rome --- sure some historians include moral decay as a problem in the fall of Rome -- a minute problem in a large and complicated government and society. As you read about it though, the "moral decay" issues that were happening were sex parties, someone keeping a harem of boy sex slaves, bestiality and forced prostitution. So if one wants to use the moral decay of the Roman Empire as an abject lesson, attack the sex slave industry - it's a huge problem.



THAT is a far cry from two adult people of the same sex in a monogamous relationship wanting to be married - especially under the law so that in times of need they are able to help one another in the way they need to.



For the record, some historians blame Christianity for the fall of the Roman Empire... so go figure.



It's a huge assumption to claim that legalizing gay marriage is going to lead to the demise of the country. And it's quite frightening how Glenn Beck and those like him can rewrite history with little or no resistance from those with much more knowledge and understanding. (I think it's because Beck is way off a true historian's radar.) I know Beck has a compelling presence, but please don't use just his references - he really does twist factual history to accommodate his corporation and it's agenda.



References that could be helpful in clarifying some of the assumptions being made:



http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/12...



http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...



http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...



http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entr...



Oh, and I still stand by my stance that gay marriage should be legal.

[deleted account]

"We will see how your beloved Obama handles the next four years of presidency"



Tell me, what makes you use that term and "Anointed One" here? You also called him the Anointed One. Are you a fan of that rather repulsive radio pundit?





ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you can't call him anything you please but the actual words chosen intrigues me.



etaa: And I almost forgot, would you please tell me what religion you follow if any?

Northern - posted on 11/11/2012

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LOL. We will see how your beloved Obama handles the next four years of presidency. The last four divided your country. I am having a wonderful time with my children, celebrating Remembrance Day.

Happy Veterans Day!

[deleted account]

I would also like to ask, who are we to tell another country how they should live? I mean, are we willing to go to war with China? That war would slaughter almost everyone fighting it.

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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I am glad you respectfully agree to disagree with my views. This is a debate and if you are offended by my views so be it, I have a right to speak my mind. So this is where I stand:



It is my opinion that the legalization of gay marriage creates future problems. If we allow gay couples to get married shouldn't we allow everyone else to practice their own alternative form of marriage such as polygamy? Where will we draw the line on what's ethical and unethical. Are we going to look the other way and allow everything immoral to happen around us and watch our North American culture and values slowly disappear. It is sadly already happening.



While it is true that polygamy in Canada is currently outlawed, there are many individuals in Canada who believe that the law banning polygamy harms society by weakening individual liberty. They believe time has come to decriminalize it. For those who practice polygamy, prosecutions are becoming rarer.



``A 2005 report by the Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre recommended that Canada decriminalize polygamy, stating: "Criminalization is not the most effective way of dealing with gender inequality in polygamous and plural union relationships. Furthermore, it may violate the constitutional rights of the parties involved."

In 2007, the Attorney General of British Columbia expressed concerns over whether this prohibition is constitutional, and an independent prosecutor in British Columbia recommended that Canadian courts be asked to rule on the constitutionality of laws against polygamy. The Supreme Court of British Columbia upheld Canada's polygamy laws in a 2011 reference case.``



How long will the law against polygamy continue to be reinforced given the increasingly disorderly, liberal world we live in!



I regard marriage as a sacred bond between a man and a woman. I believe it should be left alone. I will hold on to that belief for as long as I shall live because it has been passed down to me for many generations and I will pass it to my kids to pass it to their kids.



I believe that children need a father and mother figure in their lives.



Another reason why I am against gay marriage is adoption rights. I am against gay married couples adopting girls from the most popular provider of adopted children - China - who practices one-child policy and boys are preferred. Why are we encouraging such trade to continue to exist. Why isn`t China held accountable for its actions. Take a look at its gender imbalance and number of forced abortions!



Marriages are on the downfall, couples are having less kids and our population is aging. We are slowly dying out and people want to concentrate more and more on gay rights. We have become the minority group. Where is our help! Where is our support! Who will stand up for our struggling and often failed marriages. There was a saying ``It takes a village to raise a child``. Well, in my town alone, I am one of two families struggling to raise children on our own. The rest of the town is made up of seniors, single parents, baby mothers and grandparents stuck raising their children. Do you find this picture familiar?



In Canada, the latest statistics show birth rate way below the replacement level. For every 100 adults there are only 80 children. While immigration might be filling in the gap, we are slowly losing our traditional way of life. I will point out that I am not against immigration as I myself immigrated to Canada I am making an observation on our declining population.



I am a dedicated stay at home mother struggling to raise three young girls with no support from anybody except my loving husband. I grew up in a very liberal household and I was encouraged by my parents to end my first pregnancy in order to pursue my career goals. I put family first, career second.



You want to know what rights traditional families have lost ? Take a look at how many of you voted for Obama solely based on gay rights, contraception, immigration policies and hand me downs. What about the middle class families, the backbone of America, the ones that have suffered long enough under the first term of Obama's regime who are now forced to endure another four years of high unemployment, high welfare and a failing economy. Who will help them survive and flourish.





So now you know where I stand.

[deleted account]

NOrthernMom, what rights have hetero married couples lost?



I think everyone has seen that I openly apologized for assuming you were a Christian. I then asked what you were.

Mary - posted on 11/10/2012

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Whoa...I'm not sure where the hostility towards me is coming from. I didn't say I was jumping on the polygamy bandwagon - I was just looking for clarification on what exactly Canada was considering on the topic. I'm sorry that pointing out that decriminalization and legalizing something are not the same thing got you so riled up. I'm not lobbying for the legalizing polygamy, btw - as I've said repeatedly, unless it involves the abuse or subjugation of others, it really isn't something I feel very passionately about one way or the other.



I'm really not some extremist, left-wing nut-job. I believe in the fair and equal treatment of all. I live my life the way that I see fit, and I do my damnedest to be kind, tolerant, and accepting of others. I really try my hardest not to judge others too harshly, and worry more about what's going on in my own household than anyone else's. The only thing I am admittedly nutty about is pit bulls, and combating BSL. Mess with my dogs, and I do tend to get more than a bit hostile.



I'm not trying to change your mind about the "wrongness" of homosexuality. As I've repeatedly said, I may disagree with your opinion, but I respect your right to feel the way that you do. All I have tried to do here is explain what I see as flaws in your rationale for not legalizing marriage equality for same-sex couples. You have talked a lot about your personal beliefs and feelings. You have talked about how important the traditional family unit is to you. You've made some deliberately misleading and exaggerated claims about Canada being on the verge of legalizing polygamy. What you have not done is give any concrete, irrefutable facts about how any of these things endanger not only your family, but all families in either your country or mine.

Jodi - posted on 11/10/2012

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And would it be better if I called you prejudiced? Would that be more acceptable to you?

Jodi - posted on 11/10/2012

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Northern Mom, if you are going to call us names and make these claims, could you please:



(1) show me where I condoned polygamy.

(2) show me where I have branded you all these things you think I have.

(3) Answer the question about how gay marriage is going to affect you and your marriage and your family (you have been asked several times now and have yet to answer).

(4) show where you have exposed me?? That's an interesting one, because I am not quite sure where you are going with that, when you haven't exposed anything that I haven't already said anyway, so it isn't really *exposing* anything.

(5) answer me what my religion has to do with any of this, given you asked.



So far, your argument against gay marriage, while I respect it is your opinion and you are welcome to that opinion, has been weak at best, and certainly no reason to impose your views on the way others choose to live their lives. It isn't hurting you, so why does it matter?

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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Logical arguments ? You call condoning polygamy logical ?

Ive been branded a racist, a homophobic, a Christian, a bigot, against immigrants by you women simply because I support the marriage between a man and a woman and because I am against gay marriage.



LOL, what else can I say. Im glad you got your Obama, he really does fit your mentality because you don't accept anyone elses point of view but your own. The rest of us are attacked the moment we speak our mind.



But don't worry, Im not affected by your kind. I have exposed you fully in this debate. I have a wonderful family and I will continue to fight for the rights of the married couple in today's demoralized world.



Go ahead and legalize gay marriage. I hope Obama fulfills all your wishes all the while bringing the rest of the country to its knees.

Jodi - posted on 11/10/2012

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Yeah, apparently we are all angry and immoral. If that's the best logic you can come up with in a debate, then it may be time to hang up your boots. At the very least, if people respond to your questions with logical arguments, you can have the respect not to call people names and accuse them of being liberal kinds and perverted. Do you really think that helps your cause?

[deleted account]

BTW, I'm still waiting to hear what rights hetero marriages have lost. Just in case it slipped your mind.

[deleted account]

"Oh sure Mary that's wonderful. Lets decriminalize polygamy. Where does decriminalizing polygamy lead Mary ? Do you honestly believe it will stop there. Do you even condone decriminalizing polygamy, Mary. I am speechless once again."



From polygamy, where do you think it goes next?



"I am utterly amazed by the way your liberal kind likes to pervert things. twist things and brand people. Go ahead.""



You mean like calling me angry, etc. when all I did was point out flaws in your argument and give you my opinions?

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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Oh sure Mary that's wonderful. Lets decriminalize polygamy. Where does decriminalizing polygamy lead Mary ? Do you honestly believe it will stop there. Do you even condone decriminalizing polygamy, Mary. I am speechless once again.

I am utterly amazed by the way your liberal kind likes to pervert things. twist things and brand people. Go ahead.

Mary - posted on 11/10/2012

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Oh - and this is off topic, but I'm fairly confident that Jen doesn't hate or disparage all religious folk across the board....I've been participating in threads on here for years, and I'm pretty certain she doesn't dislike me. In fact, I'd venture that she kinda likes me ;)

Mary - posted on 11/10/2012

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Northern, you do understand that arguing that legalizing same-sex marriage is just a gateway for others to demand rights is not too far off from people in the 60's arguing against allowing blacks civil rights, or men arguing against giving women the right to vote?



But Jody does make a valid point about the differences between polygamy vs homosexuality, race, and gender. Polygamy is NOT something that someone is inherently born with. Race, gender, sexual orientation....these are all characteristics we emerge from the womb with, and have no control over.



Again, I'm not all that well-versed in polygamy as a whole, and I'm not a Canadian, but I did do just a quick bit of internet research on it's status in Canada. From what I could gather, the issue is not so much the legalization of polygamy, but rather the decriminalization of polygamous relationships occurring between consenting adults. In other words, Canada is *not*looking into granting marriage equality to polygamists, but is rather considering not criminally prosecuting those relationships where all involved parties are in consent, and are of legal age. For example, those sick Mormon fucks who take child brides would still be prosecuted as the rapists and child abusers that they are.

[deleted account]

So allthe cut/pastes were just a waste of time on my part? Oh phooey.



You're absolutely correct. I did make an asumption about your religious leanings based upon your words. I apologize for that. (see if I was the angry individual you claim, I would never apologize - i'd just keep on repeating myself.)



May I ask what your religious leaning is (if you have any at all)?

Jodi - posted on 11/10/2012

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"I am speechless. Your mentality is so close minded it makes me want to gag. "



How was my comment close minded, I am curious? I was simply saying that polygamists can't argue equal rights on the same basis that homosexuals can. I can see why they might try to demand equal rights, but their argument is not similar. And I managed to state my opinion without insulting you.



I also fail to see what my religious view has to do with anything, because regardless of my religious view, I still don't have the right to impose MY religious beliefs on others who may or may not believe the same thing.

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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Jen again you fail to make any sense.

Who said I am a Christian ? I never said I am a Christian ? You automatically believed I am a Christian because of your angry views on Christianity and religion for the matter.



You are non religious individual that condones polygamy. No wonder, it all makes sense now.

You all accused me of racism, ignorance and bigotry for even expressing my point of view on marriage and you want to discuss the power of opinion.



How very typical and welcoming of your liberal extremist kind.

[deleted account]

Are you non religious Jodi like Jen. Please let your viewers know exactly who you are.

----

It would be nice if you would do the same. I mean , you don't really espouse the teachings of Jesus and I can easily point out why.



Therefore I'm curious what you are.





(and no, I'm not angry )

[deleted account]

"Oh and one last thing Jen.



I am not against immigrants coming to Canada legally but I am strongly against illegal immigration. I noticed you like to throw jabs on immigration, so I thought I you want to know that too. My family took years of hard work and money saved up to immigrate to Canada. This is why I am a proud Canadian. Go ahead. "



Now I know that my ECT makes me a little foggy but I don't l brining up immigration except in response to your words. What jabs do you see beyond direct response to yourr words?



Stop acting like the victim of some evil conspiracy or me. You cannot prove either.

[deleted account]

"what the hell are you talking about Jen, you lost me here...



I never said its horrible to have immigrants in USA and Canada. Where did I specifically say that Jen ? You are again putting words in my mouth! I was once an immigrant, Jen and I have immigrant friends.



Look, its clear to me you are a very angry individual and no one can argue with you. I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You have lost faith in humanity and stand against everything ethical.

You don't like religion Jen? My God, no wonder you condone polygamy.""



I always get a charge out of people who call me angry simply because I disagree with them. I'm m not angry but I do stand firm to my opinions and make it known when it is an opinion vs face. Shall I go back and cut/paste yourcomments on immigrants since you're blatently ignoring your own words in my post. I know that being an atheist and disareeing with you automatically makes me anti-humantiy. You are ignoring your own words which is confusing to me. There have been multiple occiasions where someone had chnaged my oinion when presenting their facts and views. That I don't in this argument does not make me that sad angry person you seem to want to paint me.



Some of my best friends are human and I love humanity. That doesn't mean I agree with everyone.



And fo ra Christian you seem very happy to ingore the book of Matthew. I suggest you review Matthew 5:38-48.



And please don't be a hypocrit about my views. I simply disagree with you. That does not make me angry. I get angry when I see people being determined to spread misinformation and lies.

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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Jodi says "I am not seeing how polygamists can possibly argue the same thing. You aren't "born" a polygamist, it isn't an issue of sexuality, it is an issue of choice. But you are born either heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual, so you should have equal rights regardless of your sexuality, just as you should have equal rights regardless of your race, colour or gender."



I am speechless. Your mentality is so close minded it makes me want to gag.



Do you understand that gay marriage leads to other people demanding their rights to practice any immoral form of marriage?



Are you non religious Jodi like Jen. Please let your viewers know exactly who you are.

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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Oh and one last thing Jen.



I am not against immigrants coming to Canada legally but I am strongly against illegal immigration. I noticed you like to throw jabs on immigration, so I thought I you want to know that too. My family took years of hard work and money saved up to immigrate to Canada. This is why I am a proud Canadian. Go ahead.

Jodi - posted on 11/10/2012

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LMAO. My immoral views? What can I say......As I said, that post you are referring to wasn't even mine, so the laugh is on you.

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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No I dont Jodi, actually I am exposing your immoral views and I love it.

Jodi - posted on 11/10/2012

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"what the hell are you talking about Jodi, you lost me here...



I never said its horrible to have immigrants in USA and Canada. Where did I specifically say that Jodi ? You are again putting words in my mouth! I was once an immigrant, Jodi and I have immigrant friends.



Look, its clear to me you are a very angry individual and no one can argue with you. I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You have lost faith in humanity and stand against everything ethical.

You don't like religion Jodi ? My God, no wonder you condone polygamy."



LOL, that wasn't my post, so you can stop using my name, and back off with the insults, thanks. My post was the one addressing your polygamy question that you keep telling us no-one is answering.



Feel a bit silly now?

Northern - posted on 11/10/2012

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what the hell are you talking about Jen, you lost me here...



I never said its horrible to have immigrants in USA and Canada. Where did I specifically say that Jen ? You are again putting words in my mouth! I was once an immigrant, Jen and I have immigrant friends.



Look, its clear to me you are a very angry individual and no one can argue with you. I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You have lost faith in humanity and stand against everything ethical.

You don't like religion Jen? My God, no wonder you condone polygamy.

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