Bi-sexual

Starr - posted on 08/27/2010 ( 171 moms have responded )

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Ok all this is going to be a heated discussion so beware. I was in this other conversation about religion, homosexuals, blah blah. Well I am wondering if so many people believe that being gay is a genetic gene..then tell my please where does bi-sexuals fit in that? Do you believe that bi-sexuals are born to love both sexes?

I feel it is just being greedy. I know some dont agree with me but I think it is a sin both ways. For every man there is one woman. Just wondering if anyone else agrees with that. Even if its a same sex marriage, would you be ok with a 3rd? polygomy? What is the point of a bisexual. Why not just pick one and go with it.

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Krista - posted on 08/27/2010

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Starr, I think I know what you're getting at -- do you wonder if a bisexual could actually be fully satisfied and committed to just the one person?

And the answer is yes.

If you are heterosexual, and you fall in love with a man and marry him, you choose to forsake all others and commit to a monogamous relationship with that man, regardless of whether you occasionally find other men attractive, right?

Well, with bisexuality it's the same thing. You fall in love with a person. That person might be a man. That person might be a woman. But once you fall in love, if you commit to a monogamous relationship with that person, then you stick to it.

Basically it's like finding both brunettes and blonds attractive. Finding both attractive doesn't mean that you want to be married to both. It just means that when you are single, your potential pool of partners is a little larger than if you only liked brunettes. And if you are bisexual, your potential pool of partners is larger than if you only liked one gender. It's as simple as that.

Jenny - posted on 08/27/2010

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It's not a choice so there's no picking involved. I never decided to like women one day, I met one I was attracted to and realised I am bisexual.

Being bisexual means you are attracted to a person as an invidual and not limited by gender. I can be attracted to a woman in the same way as a man but it still comes down to the actual person. Of course, not any man or woman would do. I've now been with my male partner for almost 11 years but when I first met him I was also dating women.

And I couldn't care less if anyone thinks it's a sin. I'm an athiest and not ruled by anyone else's deities.

Johnny - posted on 08/27/2010

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I could never see myself in a romantic/sexual/marital relationship with a woman. However, there are women out there that I do find very attractive, both personally and sexually. I do not refer to myself as bisexual, but since sexuality exists on a continuum, I would say that I am not 100% heterosexual. Perhaps 70/30? Maybe 65/35? Not too sure, it's not really important. I am now in a committed life partnership with my husband and I do not plan to be with any other men or women, but that is my personal choice. Why not pick one and go with it? Well, I did, but that doesn't stop me from being attracted to people who are not my spouse. Do you not ever see another man and think that he is attractive?

I suggest that if you are really and truly interested in issues of sexuality, that you take a look here: http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/ They are the pre-eminent scholastic research institute in areas of human sexuality and have done extensive long-term analysis of the human sexual experience. Real human sexuality is far different than the morality imposed on humanity by religious dogma. Just like in most areas of scientific research, what is taught in the holy books and by the religious leaders is not backed up by evidence.

It is likely that our sexuality is determined by our genetic make-up, not necessarily by one specific "gay" gene. Our genetic construction most likely determines the level of attraction we feel to the opposite sex vs. the same sex. This is true throughout most animal species.

As for fidelity, that is a personal choice. It works for me, but I do not care if other people follow my practices. It in no way effects me if other people choose to introduce a 3rd person or more into their relationship/marriage. I do not have the right nor the interest in dictating the construction of other individual's personal relationships. I am actually very passionate about defending the right of individuals to choose the family type that they want for themselves. As long as it is not harming anyone (pedophilia, marital slavery, etc.) we each have the right to follow our own bliss.

Johnny - posted on 08/28/2010

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Starr, yes, originally we were discussing bisexuals. But then you chose to refer to homosexuality in your post where you explained why you thought that research into genetic origins of sexuality was bunk, and also proceeded to talk about how homosexuals are just like thieves and addicts and also quoted the bible. That would be this post in case your memory or re-reading skills are suffering this evening:

No Jaime Im not on deffense. As I stated before I expect people to challenge me but not to be rude about it. I have no problem with the opinions given to me exept for Kati. She can be respectful about her opinion without calling peoples ideas ignorant. And Im soaking in what you all are telling me. Its nice to hear opinions from more than one person. Now that doesnt mean that Im going to have a paradigm shift, But I can take into account what Im being told. Jaime, when people dont understand we ask questins right? So you don't understand my views amd Im trying to understand others. To the extent that biological or social factors may contribute to a person's bent toward homosexual behavior, this does not excuse it. Some people have a strong bent towards stealing or abuse of alcohol, but they still choose to engage or not engage in this behavior the law rightly holds them accountable. And as far as being born that wayhomosexuals claim that scientific studies have shown that there is a biological basis for homosexuality.Three main studies are cited by “gay rights” activists in support of their argumentIn all three cases, the researchers had a vested interest in obtaining a certain outcome because they were homosexuals themselves. More importantly, their studies did not stand up to scientific scrutiny by other researchers.There is no reliable evidence to date that homosexual behavior is determined by a person's genes. And have you all thought about all the diseases that are more common in homosexuality? But you are saying its ok and normal?In addition to diseases associated with heterosexual promiscuity, homosexual actions facilitate the transmission of anal herpes, hepatitis B, intestinal parasites, Kaposi's Sarcoma and AIDS So youwant religion? Here I have plenty more form where this comes..Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortion ers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules. However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.

I quoted in it's entirety so that you can not accuse me of taking it out of context.

If you call that respectful, then I think you might need to return to your youthful lessons on respect. You may feel that homosexuals do not deserve to be spoken of kindly, but your feelings on that matter do not negate the fact that you were being just plain rude.


It's nice that you're annoyed as hell that people attack your religion. People are attacking your religion. As far as I am concerned any religion that denigrates and degrades other human beings for being who they are and who they are born to be deserves to be attacked and degraded. I am not referring to "Christianity" as a whole but to the specific beliefs of a certain segment of the followers of God (of any stripe, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) who feel that they have the right to deride, insult, attack, demean, vilify, murder, or assault anyone who they feel is wrong because they have decided that their god has so demanded it. It is sick and perverted.

Your point is getting across, and it is not being well received. I am one of those people who is not willing to tolerate intolerance. I suppose that in and of itself makes me intolerant. Tough shit!

Johnny - posted on 08/28/2010

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I suppose most of us are thinking that if you really had read up on the Kinsey research and all of the analysis on sexuality that is available, then you wouldn't be asking these questions. You would already know "what is the point of bisexual". You would know that it isn't a "gay" gene but your genetics that determines your sexual attractions in general. You would already understand that throughout human and animal history there has been a myriad of sexual and emotional relationship types and that they are all natural. You would know that there isn't actually a woman for every man or a man for every woman. You would understand that while the bible tells stories about this, that it isn't actually true. In fact, there are a damn many places in the bible that there is not just one man and one woman.

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[deleted account]

Ladies,

If you want to continue debating this topic please open a new thread.

Thanks
Toni
Moderator

Jennifer - posted on 03/23/2011

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Sexuality is on a spectrum. Lots of things are inherited that are not "all or nothing," such as height. You can be tall, short or in between. Think of bi-sexuality as the hazel eyes of sexuality. ;)
Marriage, as opposed to sexuality, is a social construct that one has a choice about, otherwise you wouldn't have to say "I do!" I can choose whether or not to marry but not who I am attracted to. True,one can choose whether or not to act upon it, but that just makes one celebate.

Jaime - posted on 09/02/2010

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lol...thanks for outing me Dana! I wanted to be a closeted corny-joke teller! Can I be bi-jestual?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh snap! There I go again...lol

[deleted account]

Oh god, Jocelyn - Jaime is the queen of corny jokes. I'm surprised she didn't bust one out for you!



C'mon Jaime, you know you wanna?!



*pokes Jaime with a stick*

[deleted account]

Haha! That's silly....I just spit on my computer screen...GROSS! I think I was more laughing at the fact that you thought it was so funny.....kinda corny! ;)

Jaime - posted on 09/02/2010

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Well keep up with whatever you're doing April and don't worry about your family. They are likely operating under traditional notions of breastfeeding. If it works for him and for you, then that is what is right. Your family will just have to tough it out. It's just too bad that you don't have their support on such an important choice.

April - posted on 09/02/2010

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Dana, they think he is too old. and they think it's just plain weird. and my mom is VERY upset that she can't keep him overnight (im the only one to get him to bed because he nurses to sleep). well he is only 20 months...i think he is too young for overnights anyway!! To make a long story short....the general feeling in my family is "get them off the boob by 6 months"

Sarah - posted on 09/02/2010

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I always told myself that if I was in a long term relationship with a woman, then I would tell my family. It didn't seem worth the effort to tell them about women I had sex with. I mean, I didn't tell them about hte men I had sex with! However, I only had 2 serious relationships before my husband, both men and so those are the only 2 people besides my hubby that they ever met. I do think they wondered a bit :) But, they also know that my best friend is a lesbian, so they know I am big on gay rights. Oh, and my in-laws all know, which is wierd but my MIL in particular is cool with it, her brother is gay :)

April - posted on 09/01/2010

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i never thought about that..about what to tell the family when you're bi. when you're female and you're with a man..they assume you're 100% straight. it must be harder than just being 100% homosexual. usually deep down the family usually knows when their loved one is gay...they notice when their loved one doesn't show interest in the opposite sex. that must be really hard. i'm not gay or bi...but i know what it's like to feel like you can't be your whole self to your family. (i am still nursing my 20 month old and my family is VERY against it, but i believe it's right for us)

Sarah - posted on 09/01/2010

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We totally should! LOL

Seriously though- i think that even 'straight' women are ok having girl crushes that are not even sexual in nature. I do hope we are moving towards a world where gender is not an issue!

Jocelyn - posted on 09/01/2010

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You make a great observation Krista. Men are too concerned with their "masculinity" and I think it takes a strong man to admit that they are attracted to other men (if they are [mainly lol] straight). We woman have it much easier in that sense ^_^
I personally think that we are the future. Give it a few generations and we'll be a world full of people who love others for who they are, not their genders.
On a funny (though related) note, my hubby has a huge man-crush on Nick Stokes :P

Krista - posted on 09/01/2010

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Jocelyn, I think it would be a BIG club. From my completely unscientific observations, women tend to be a little more comfortable with the idea of being attracted to other women.



I think part of the reason for this is that culturally, we think of a woman making love to a woman as still a very feminine act. But a man making love to a man is not traditionally seen as a masculine act.



Think about how often it is assumed that a gay man will be effeminate -- the assumption that a lesbian will be butch is not made with the same amount of frequency, I would wager.



So, for a lot of men, the very idea of being sexually attracted to another man is seen as a huge threat to their masculinity. So even if they HAVE those thoughts, a lot of them would never admit it, let alone act on it.



But for a woman, it doesn't really threaten her sense of femininity to admit to herself that she finds another woman sexually attractive. Hence, it is easier for her to admit it and perhaps even act on it -- she doesn't have the same worry about it threatening her very identity.



I think if everybody was 100% honest with themselves, though, and wasn't so concerned with gender roles and societal taboos, we'd see a LOT more people admitting to occasional same-gender sexual attraction.

Jocelyn - posted on 09/01/2010

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Toni you hit it bang on!!! That's exactly what I was saying ^_^
@ Dana, Sarah, Krista, Kati, Jenny-- since we all ended up with men, we should start a club...something like "The F.BI's" (gwtm, lame joke/name I know :P)

[deleted account]

I'm with you Sarah. Although I've had sex encounters with women and am still very much attracted to women, I've been in a monogamous relationship with Chad for coming up on 8 years. That monogamy includes the threesome we had with a very sexy friend of mine.

For me, it's about the person....regardless of gender.

Sarah - posted on 09/01/2010

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Ok- so although I fucked women before I was married, but chose to marry a man I was really just pretending to be bisexual? I guess that means any premarital sex you had was fake too. Obviously you don't get it. I chose my husband and I am monogamous b/c that is our relationhip if we were to divorce tomorrow (not that we would) I dont know who I would fall in love with next, man or woman. I do know that I still check out girl porn (thank You, SuicideGirls!) on those long weeks that he works nights, but I also fantasize about Johhny Depp (too bad there's no porn with him in it).

[deleted account]

Ugh. Can we please stop with the "sin" stuff? Sheesh! It's so judgmental!

I don't know where bisexuality fits in, and I don't really care. What people do in their private lives is their own business. Not ours, not even God's.

I will say that I've read about bisexual behavior being seen in animal populations. So scientifically speaking, it's probably just another kind of behavior.

[deleted account]

Sherri I find that people who are bi-sexual are attracted to PEOPLE the gender is unimportant because they see the personality and the person. I find it hard to believe that those of you who cannot understand bi-sexuality have never been attracted to another person regardless of gender - when I started dating my hubby it wasn't because he was a man it was because I liked who he was and yes I found him physically appealing too but I did not think oh he's a man I can be attracted to him! Gender does not turn me on people do!

Johnny - posted on 08/31/2010

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LOL@ diagnosing stranger's sexuality on an internet forum. Too much funny! (as my 2 year old says)

Well, has it occurred to you Sherri that most people, gay, straight, and bisexual, tend to be more promiscuous, adventurous, and explore their sexuality during their early 20's? Some people include the same sex in that exploration and decide that it isn't for them, that deep down, they're strongest sexual/love feelings are for the opposite sex. Some like it so much they decide to stick with it, that they fall in love with the same sex. And some realize that they like both, and though they may commit to one or the other in a permanent relationship, they will always be attracted to both genders. That "party 20's stage" is often a time when people start to understand what their own sexuality is all about.

I had a few affairs with women when I was younger. One of whom is now one of my closest friends. I am now happily married, and fully committed to my husband and daughter, and she is happily married and fully committed to her husband and expecting a daughter this September. While our sexual attraction has faded to that of a close friendship (similar to what happened to me and one of my ex-boyfriends), it does not mean that attraction was not once very real. And we are both still attracted to women (and men). Just not each other.

I don't really understand why it is so hard to grasp bisexuality. I think if we open our minds to the infinite possibilities of the human experience, it makes total sense. Only when we shrink our perspectives and choose to view our existence through an outdated puritan lens, do we find these ideas confusing.

Jenny - posted on 08/31/2010

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I know exactly what you mean Kati. I can watch my partner chop wood shirtless ALL day long.

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

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i left out the part about me being attracted to men sherri. i was focusing on my feelings for women, assuming you knew i was married with 3 kids. i find women sexy, i've never experienced being in a relationship with a woman so i couldn't tell you how that would make me feel. but i can tell you that being with a man makes me feel safe, secure and protected. i am sexually attracted to men as well, just not as much visually as i am with women, although i do love a broad pair of shoulders, gah!! i don't know how to explain myself, as i don't quite understand myself. all i know is how i feel, and what i've experienced, and for me this is just how i've always been, there was no conscious choice to be this way-i just am this way.

Krista - posted on 08/31/2010

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Nice of you to diagnose a complete stranger's sexuality over the internet, Sherri. LOL! If you haven't noticed, Kati's profile pic has a man in it -- I would assume that's her husband?



Sherri, you just don't get it: bisexuality is simply that you are capable of being sexually and romantically attracted to EITHER gender. There is nothing confusing about it. And a lot of bisexuals do tend to lean a bit more towards one gender than another. It doesn't have to be perfectly 50/50, you know. And that's fine as well.



But if you're not attracted to women, you're not going to be able to CHOOSE to be attracted to women now, are you? It's either in you or it isn't.

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

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@sherri, that doesnt really prove that they were making a choice, just that they were confused. i can tell you right now this is just how i am, i've always been this way, since i was like 10 or something. i remember watching cinemax at my friends house (or skinamax as we called it, lol) and watching the naughty naked movies. i would get extremely turned on by the women, that's all that i would look at, the man could've been in a different room for all i cared, i just wanted to look at the women.

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

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and unfortunately sarah, i havn't let my family know that i am an atheist or bisexual. i don't fear rejection, i fear them trying to persuade me i'm wrong, and start praying for me. and it's just not a fight i'm willing to put up with. i thought long and hard about my trip to atheism, i tried to be the inbetween christian, but finally i just douldn't do it, this process took years. i'm frustrated that i can't tell my family, but i know it would be more hassle than anything. i just go along, pray with my meal when i'm there and respect their religion just as i have always done for years. :)

April - posted on 08/31/2010

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i think you do not understand bi-sexuality because you have a hard time imagining yourself with another woman. also, you didn't choose to be heterosexual. you just are. it's the same for those who prefer both sexes. they just are. not everything requires a long explanation. some things just aren't complex!

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

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sorry woman-didn't choose, just happen to be this way. how the hell would you know anyway? are you bi?

Tanya - posted on 08/31/2010

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About Buddhists :
The question of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama’s stance on homosexuality bothered me and so I decided to see for myself. In his 1996 book Beyond Dogma: Dialogues and Discourses, he said that homosexuality was wrong. He later clarified that homosexuality was wrong because it involved the use of the mouth, rectum and/or hands as opposed to only using genitalia. He added that the use of the mouth, rectum and hands are also proscribed in heterosexual encounters.

The primary issue is whether an act is “sexual misconduct.” The problem is that “sexual misconduct” was not defined by Buddha. An article published on the World Tibet Network News website of a transcript between an interviewer and the Dalai Lama, he explains that sexual activity, and therefore sexual misconduct, has to be separated into two different categories. The first category is for those who are in religious communities–nuns and monks. The second category is for those who are not celibate–everyday Buddhists. In the first instance, any form of sexual activity, including masturbation would be wrong because there would be ejaculate (he obviously had men in mind). However, the same could not be said of masturbation for someone not in a religious community.

Also most Methodist churches now except gays and do not think it is a sin.

Krista - posted on 08/31/2010

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Jaime, your comment reminds me of a famous bit from the Russell-Einstein Manifesto: "We appeal, as human beings, to human beings: Remember your humanity and forget the rest. If you can do so, the way lies open to a new paradise; if you cannot, there lies before you the risk of universal death."

It was meant as a call for nuclear disarmament, but when you think about it, it can really apply to this situation. We can respect our differences: religious, atheist, gay, straight, black, white, whatever...but the most important thing, above all, is to remember our shared humanity. When it really comes down to it, we all want the same things in life: to be healthy and happy and to love and be loved. If we focus on our differences, it becomes too easy to then dehumanize people, which then leads to us treating each other in all sorts of horrible ways.

So teach your kids about whatever spirituality you please. But the greatest gift we can give to the next generation is to teach them to treat all of their fellow human beings AS human beings.

[deleted account]

Just piping in to say something. ;)

The reason that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John state different things is because it is the same story told from 4 different perspectives. It's like getting 4 people standing on different corners and witnessing the same accident. None of them are going to have the EXACT same things to say.

Starr - posted on 08/31/2010

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@ Tanya. Once man put their mouths or hands on anyhting God said or did, it began to get messed up. This is why noone should follow it to the T. With all religious books, or even history books, they are tainted once man touched, spoke about, or tried to re write. Mainly taking into account language barriers. I feel if its repeated in the Bible atleast a few times then it's probably ok to say that it happened or will or should be followed. @ Jaime, To start with God and Allah are both the same. Jews and Christians think alike until the New testament comes into place...Muslims also think a lot alike until Muhammed comes along. Im not by no means saying all these religions are alike but they do have similarities. You all know by now what the Bible sais about homosexuality. But here are a few from the Quran
What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165
And the Quran after Muhammed:
When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes
There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith: "Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them
As for the Buddhist: The third Precept actually says: 'Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami.' The word kama refers to any form of sensual pleasure but with an emphasis on sexual pleasure and a literal translation of the precept would be "I take the rule of training (veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami) not to go the wrong way/homosexuality (micchacara) for sexual pleasure (kamesu)
My point behind posting these is that being religious we are taught that our God wichever one does not accept homosexuality. W only know this from what we read and are taught. There is no way for us to stae that this is what God wants for sure. (Unless you will agree with people like Mary J. Baxter who in another state of mind went with God to Heaven and hell and came back to tell us what he told her.)
Its more than just diversity. I've been trying to say this before. Like some say one can't just stop being gay, I say one can't just stop being religious t please somebody else wo doesnt even agree with their religion to begin with.

Jaime - posted on 08/31/2010

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I've thought about this some today and I am caught up on the conversation, but what stands out to me is that a belief in something doesn't negate our freedom to live and be how we choose to live and be. If God knows the truth and what's right and wrong, then great...but can anyone actually state what it is that God knows for sure? What is absolute right and absolute wrong? There is more than one religion around the world, and there are even varying degrees of each individual religion...Some worship God, some worship Allah, some worship Buddha and some worship giant green grasshoppers under a trellis in the back garden full of twinkling Christmas lights.

The point is, that it is okay to have a belief in something or someone that is greater than ourselves...but it should never ever ever take away from the humanitarian in all of us. Not everyone has to agree with homosexuality, but everyone should be tolerant and accepting of diversity...how can we not be? There is not one single person on this earth that mirrors another (save for identical twins but even then don't have perfectly matched DNA). Diversity is all you need to understand to be able to accept that homosexuality is a fact of life...maybe not your life, but someone's life.

Tanya - posted on 08/31/2010

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Just something to keep in mind about the new testament. The stories where passed down for over a 100 years by word of mouth before being collected for uses in the bible. Thats why you can't actually say thats all the words in red are the words of Jesus.

Here is a good example of how you know that storied were passes by word of mouth:

According to the author of Matthew, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him to take Mary and the child into Egypt for fear of Herod. So Joseph took Mary and the child to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. Then Herod, finding that he was mocked by the wise men, "sent forth and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem and in all the coasts thereof from two years old and under."

After the death of Herod an angel again appeared in a dream to Joseph and told him to take mother and child and go back to Palestine. So he went back and dwelt in Nazareth.

Is this story true? Must we believe that Herod murdered the babes of Bethlehem? Is it not unbelievable that the enemies of Herod did not charge him with this horror? Is it not marvelous that Mark and Luke and John forgot to mention this most heartless of massacres?

Luke also gives an account of the birth of Christ, but a very different one. He says that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed; that this was when Cyrenius was governor of Syria; that in accordance with this decree, Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem to be taxed; that at that place Christ was born and laid in a manger. He also says that shepherds, in the neighborhood, were told of the birth by an angel, with whom was a multitude of the heavenly host; that these shepherds visited Mary and the child, and told others what they had seen and heard. He tells us that after eight days the child was named, Jesus; that forty days after his birth he was taken by Joseph and Mary to Jerusalem, and that after they had performed all things according to the law they returned to Nazareth. Luke also says that the child grew and waxed strong in spirit, and that his parents went every year to Jerusalem.

Do the accounts in Matthew and Luke agree? Can both accounts be true? Luke never heard of the star, and Matthew knew nothing of the heavenly host. Luke never heard of the wise men, nor Matthew of the shepherds. Luke knew nothing of the hatred of Herod, the murder of the babes or the flight into Egypt. According to Matthew, Joseph, warned by an angel, took Mary and the child and fled into Egypt. According to Luke they all went to Jerusalem, and from there back to Nazareth.

Both of these accounts cannot be true. Will some Christian scholar tell us which to believe? When was Christ born? Luke says that it took place when Cyrenius was governor. Here is another mistake. Cyrenius was not appointed governor until after the death of Herod, and the taxing could not have taken place until ten years after the alleged birth of Christ. According to Luke, Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, and for the purpose of getting them to Bethlehem, so that the child could be born in the right place, the taxing under Cyrenius was used, but the writer, being "inspired" made a mistake of about ten years as to the time of the taxing and of the birth. Matthew says nothing about the date of the birth, except that he was born when Herod was king.

It is now known that Herod had been dead ten years before the taxing under Cyrenius. So, if Luke tells the truth, Joseph, being warned by an angel, fled from the hatred of Herod ten years after Herod was dead. If Matthew and Luke are both right, Christ was taken to Egypt ten years before he was born, and Herod killed the babes ten years after he was dead. Will some Christian scholar have the goodness to harmonize these "inspired" accounts?

Sarah - posted on 08/31/2010

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wow Kati- that is a big change! My family, while religious is certainly not as strict as all that. That must have taken giant balls of steel to walk away from- good on you! It is nice to know there are others like me out there though! :)

[deleted account]

Shut the fuckin front door! Starr....YAY! I think that's awesome and like Jaime just said, I don't think anyone expects you to change your views. I certainly don't and I do understand where you're coming from. THIS is a huge step forward. I'm excited!

Jaime - posted on 08/31/2010

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Starr, glad to see you're taking another approach to this debate. I don't think anyone expects you to change your views, but the fact that you are gaining a different perspective of homosexuality is just as important. That is what it means to be understanding even when your religious views disagree.

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

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that is why i stopped being a christian sarah. i couldn't sit idly by and watch people i care about being told they were less than human, and teated less than human simply for their "sin" of love, all the while struggling with how i felt about women. i don't get it, and never will. my whole family is mennonite or amish, and i love them all, i just don't get their way of thinking, and i can't make myself be a part of something that condemns people for just being who they are when they aren't hurting anyone.

Sarah - posted on 08/31/2010

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Yeah, I wish I could get certain of my family memebers to understand this! If my sin and your sin are just as bad, then how come I get picked on all the time? Kinda a grade school breakdown, but essentially that is how I feel. I grew up in a Christian household, went to Christian school and the one thing that I could never get people at church to understand (for the most part) is that we don't all just have an equal right to be saved, we also have an equal right to sin. And if you believe the first one, you Have to believe the second, IMO. The Bible says the only unforgiveable sin is to deny Christ. So, a lifetime sin of living as a homosexual is no worse than a lifetime lived as a herterosexual b/c every life is full of sin.
For me, the way Christians respond to homo/bisexuality is one of the largest contributing factors to my lack of faith. It is something I struggle with- somedays I think I should start going back to church, others I dismiss it b/c I don't want to deal with all of these types of issues. *sigh* I'm still not sure.

Krista - posted on 08/31/2010

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Awesome.



Now, can you go persuade the rest of the christian community? It shouldn't be too difficult. ; )

Starr - posted on 08/31/2010

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God loves everyone, and that Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. He didn't say, "love your neighbor, unless he or she happens to be homosexual." He never said one word about homosexuality at all.
I pulled this form the article Kat posted. I really do love you all. Im not changing my views on how I feel about homosexuality(Im not expessing them anymore on here either) But I really do get it now. I get it in the human rights way we are all the same, right. I get it that unless we deny all sinners who do not repent to get married then we really shouldn't deny homosexuals. This I get.

Starr - posted on 08/31/2010

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Krista, I agree 100% That is what I was saying more about I don't just listen to any pastor or someone who claims to be a follower of Christ. Because some of the highest thought of "Christians" do not lead a life of good morals.

Krista - posted on 08/31/2010

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Actually, Starr, you're right. You never said that you found homosexuality itself disgusting, just anal sex. My apologies for overgeneralizing.

I do think, however, that your visceral disgust at the idea of anal sex is colouring your perceptions of homosexuality. Something to consider.

And I'm very pleased to see that you realize that you were focusing more on homosexuality than on other sins. (Not that I think homosexuality is a sin, but we won't get into that.)

I think that's why so many of us get so frustrated with the religious community -- a lot of them are so focused on sticking their noses into other peoples' bedrooms that they are losing focus on all of the other problems in the world that actually DO need solving. And then when you get religious leaders going on about how sinful being gay is, and two weeks later they're caught cheating on their wives with $10 hookers?

Well, it just tends to make a lot of us look at the religious community and think, "Clean your own damn house before you start worrying about everybody else's."

Rosie - posted on 08/31/2010

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doesn't that make you wonder a bit then? i mean jesus himself NEVER mentioned it once. if it was soooo important don't you think he would've? only paul mentions it, and if you (you in general, not specifically you) follow all of pauls statements, then well....i guess i don't know what to say to that.

i can see how you think it's a sin, i really can. but people who don't believe in god don't need you to worry (i don't know if that's the right word) for them, or even judge them, since GOD is supposed to be the one judging. as far as them repenting, i don't repent my sins because i don't believe in god, therefore i'm not a sinner. most homosexuals don't believe in god so they don't believe they are sinning either. why is it up to christians to judge who is sinning and who is not? why not leave it up to god?

oh, and i really do encourage you to read that link i posted in the other thread. (i don't think you did, correct me if i'm wrong). it's not what you think it is, really. what makes one christians account of the bible less credible than anothers? what makes one pastors interpretation of the bible less credible than anothers?

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