Circumcision ban, agree or disagree

Mother - posted on 02/22/2012 ( 302 moms have responded )

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I see there was an old post that talked about this. I'm a fence sitter on this topic. I think it is a choice that should be left up to the parents. I don't think I would personally circumcise my boy child [we only have girls] but I've heard many reason why someone would and should have that option.

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Johnny - posted on 02/24/2012

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I fear that a ban would push the people who are absolutely determined to get it done under the table and possibly in unsafe situations. Also that they may be reluctant to seek medical help if something goes wrong because they fear the consequences. If you stop funding it, stop performing it routinely in hosptials, and educate about the fact that it isn't necessary, rates will go down, as has already happen in the juridictions that have followed this practice. The hard core believers will whitle down in numbers as it would become culturally uncommon.

[deleted account]

Infant girls won't remember having their outer labia surgically removed either.



Doesn't make it right or less barbaric.

[deleted account]

I had my son circumcised. We went to a urologest and had to pay for it completely out of pocket (our insurance didn't cover it). We found out during, that he would have had to have it done anyway. His forskin was malformed. We most likely wouldn't have known about it until our son would be about 2 or 3 and the foreskin when the foreskin seperates from the head.



I feel that we should be able to make that choice for our sons. I'm glad we had it done, it would have been so much worse to do it when he would be older.



I'll admit it is hard. No parent wants to see their child in pain. But we really thought it over, and we saved every penny to do it. I am not the type to spend money needlessly and it was a lot.



I'm fine with insurances not covering it. I think it leads the parents to really think long and hard about it.

Stifler's - posted on 05/23/2012

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@ karen it's political because chopping off a piece of someones sexual organs for no good reason is a human rights issue.

[deleted account]

100% for a ban. It is unnecessary and elective. Absent a compelling and immediate medical indication (something that MIGHT happen when a boy is 25 or 80 is totally irrelevant), the decision regarding whether or not a person's foreskin should be removed should be made by the person with the foreskin.



No one is "taking away people's rights and religious freedoms" -- you don't have a right to mutilate someone else's body based on your religion or your right to freedom. Your freedom to swing your arm ends at my nose; the same would apply for a little boy's foreskin.

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~♥Little Miss - posted on 10/03/2012

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*****ADMIN WARNING*****



We need to respect eachothers opinions in here. Debates can get heated, but YES the rules in the community still apply. If you are unfamiliar with the no T.H.U.P.S policy that has been set by the COM management team, I suggest you review the policy.



This thread is being closed due to it being old, and resurrected. Feel free to start another, and keep in mind we all have our opinions, but HOW we express them depends on how people perceive them.



~~Admin Little Miss~~

Amy - posted on 10/03/2012

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Your boys will travel. They will learn the truth - the truth which is, unequivocally, that you've made their penises smaller and reduced the sensitivity and functionality of their sexual organs. The truth as told by you may be a comforting lie for now, but it won't be an unshakeable belief that they hold forever. I guess you could desperately clutch at straws, dig your claws into them, cover their eyes and screech that you're RIGHT, you're RIGHT Goshdarnit because you're MOM, and hope like all hell that the voice of reason doesn't filter in from elsewhere. Or you could start thinking up ways to apologise. Don't make that a last resort - apologies often come too little, too late.



I'm not sure where you get your facts, or where you mean by 'here', but across the USA it is estimated that no more than around 50% of boys are circumcised these days, and that rate drops every year. It hasn't been 75% for a very long time. Not that the fact that many girls in Malaysia undergo circumcision makes it any more 'right' - you do understand that, right? I hope you kicked up a stink when female circumcision was banned in the USA in the 1990s - it seems terribly unfair to deny those families the choice. Their kids, their beliefs...heck, up til the '70s it was even covered by Blue Cross! Female circ's a legitimate health procedure, y'all.



And of people who would do this, , I reserve the right to call whatever names I choose. It's disgusting. And barbaric. So, bring on the ban - mummysg forums didn't like it when I pointed out the wrongs of snipping girls, either. I guess now that I'm banned, they must be right! ;-)

Amy - posted on 10/03/2012

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Bullying? Are you for real? And strapping down an infant and cutting and forever altering his genitals is NOT bullying? I hope you're equal-opportunity when it comes to genital cutting and would do your daughters the same 'favour'.



Pro-cutters/anti-choicers like you blow my mind. No matter how much you huff and puff and rail against the truth on moms' groups where you can enjoy virtual hugz and rezpect from your like-minded cutting companions, you can't change the facts.



You can get all the luvs and lolz and support you want, you can celebrate your standing in this virtual community and go 'round waving a big stick policing them rulz, but it doesn't change that you are regarded with revulsion by the international community because what you did was a vile act, and you're completely close-minded to the possibility of accepting your past mistakes.



Food for thought:



http://www.mummysg.com/forums/f40/have-y...

Amy - posted on 10/03/2012

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Go ahead, Sherri. I've got better things to do than sit here arguing with you. But seriously, it IS funny - if you have my rather black sense of humour - that you think it's a parental right to amputate parts of your sons' genitals, and funnier still that you think they'll 'thank' you for it once they find out the truth. And you're worried about the rules on a stupid moms' group? For real?

[deleted account]

Well, you can't miss what you don't have. Being circumcised, you can enjoy sex, of course, but it is like being color blind, you don't get all the experience you were born to get. There are 1000's of men in the world who do not like being circumcised and resent their parents or the doctor or mohel who cut them as infants. Every male in my family is intact and they are thankful they have all their parts.

The problem with your comment about one man you know who wishes he had been circumcised, he could totally go and get it done! What a concept. An adult can give consent, have adequate analgesia and anesthesia and decide how much foreskin he wants to get removed. A baby can not. So instead of getting himself cut, he cut his child? What a violation!

Since 85% of men in the world have a foreskin, I would bet your sons would not be angry if left their natural bodies. If they wanted to cut up their own bodies, that is their right. Just because you have lived in a sheltered, foreskin phobic culture, does not mean that it is the norm. Get out of small town America, see the world and all it has to offer. You might be surprised to learn you are in the minority.

[deleted account]

She is entitled to an opinion but I was giving her facts. There is a difference. Why don't people see that it is unethical and harmful to remove part of a babies' penis? How do you know that boy wanted part of his penis diminished and reduced? It is HIS penis, not his parent's, not his religion's, not his government, nor his family's! I will never stop educating and informing parent's about this atrocity. I am glad you are happy you affected your son's sexual lives forever and hopefully they will forgive you for it when they learn that you paid someone to cut off part of their penis.

[deleted account]

What about girls who become elderly women, with all those folds and nooks in their vulva? What are you going to cut off them to make it easier for some nursing assistant to clean them when they are old? That is a ridiculous argument to use for cutting off a newborn's foreskin. Nursing staff who are used to seeing and dealing with intact elders have no problems cleaning them and keeping them infection free. More education and less cutting is what is truly needed.

[deleted account]

Who says that circumcision is "virtually painless"? In order to verify that, have the same procedure done to yourself, using whatever pain management was done to your son(s) and have a portion of your labia or clitoral hood removed, because that would be cleaner. It is both sexist and insulting for you to say that boys are dirty so they should have part of their penis cut off. Ears get dirty, why don't we cut them off? Toes get dirty too, lop them off at birth. Nonsense, you say? Well, exactly. Cutting off the most sexually sensitive part of a boy's body, often with little or no anesthesia is nonsense also. Learn about proper anatomy and hygiene. If 85% of the men in the world with foreskins can keep themselves clean, I am sure your sons could too.

Jodi - posted on 10/02/2012

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Do you have a daughter? They aren't pristine either......I hate that there is a misrepresentation of how boys are dirtier than girls. It's a myth. Ever had thrush? Ever had to learn how to clean your labia properly? Of course, right? Boys have to learn to clean themselves JUST AS GIRLS DO. Girls get infections all the time because of lack of personal hygiene. More often than boys do, actually. And young girls are just as challenged from a personal hygiene perspective, believe me.

Serena - posted on 10/02/2012

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I think it is important to circumcise. Boys are dirty, they don't clean themselves and quite often due to lack of cleaning they get infected. I think it's cleaner and the procedure is virtually painless I had it done in Vancouver and with all the pain prevention they did, none of boys even whimpered or cried

[deleted account]

The 3 studies done by circumcising physicians and researchers in Africa are deeply flawed, both by method and results. Having a foreskin does not make you more prone to disease or infection. In America, 80% of adult men in their 30's and above are circumcised and we have the highest rates of both HIV and STI's in the developed world! In Europe, Japan, and other countries where 80% of the men are not circumcised (intact), they have 3 to 7 times lower rates of HIV and STI's! Having unprotected sex with someone with HIV or an STI makes you more prone to getting said infection, not having all your natural body parts! Even with the studies in Africa, they tell people they still have to wear condoms and should be monogamous.

Jodi - posted on 09/25/2012

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You're right, this post isn't about how to stop HIV, but to use it as a REASON to decide to circumcise is a treading on very thin ground. In reality, if someone has HIV, circumcising is NOT going to prevent it from spreading. You can't say, well, I have HIV, but I'm circumcised so that's okay. You can't say, well I have HIV, but he is circumcised, so that's ok, we can have unsafe sex. The RISK may be slightly reduced, but the risk is still extremely high. You STILL need to provide that education, regardless. In every sense, it is not a sufficient benefit (and from my reading, there MAY be a VERY minute benefit) to justify routine circumcision of infants.

Kate - posted on 09/25/2012

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@ Jodi



My goal, in the post, was just to add a small bit of information that I thought might be interesting to consider. I only heard about the program. I know nothing about the study that prompted the creation of the program. If you are correct, I would agree that there is no way to know what reduced HIV transmission; and I would farther agree that it's more likely that a condom was responsible for lower rates of transmission than anything else. You are right, it's difficult to prove a connection when you have too many variables. But given the proportion of the AIDS epidemic it might be an interesting thing to study circumcision as a single variable.



I also believe that empowering women in these communities to be advocates for safe sex, to stop the violence and rape that happen in many of these countries, to give people access to medication that will stop the transmission of the virus from mother to child, and many other practices are far more promising than circumcision BUT this post is not about stoping the spread of HIV in the developing world :)

Jodi - posted on 09/25/2012

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Did you also read, Kate, that the men in the study that shows the reduced risk of HIV who were circumcised ALSO received sex education and condoms. The other group did not. Sorry, I question the controls in that study. The best way of reducing HIV transmission is to use a condom, and that doesn't require cutting a piece of the penis off. I would therefore suggest that the best way of reducing HIV transmission is through sex education.

Kate - posted on 09/25/2012

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I recently read an article on NPR, maybe, or possibly human rights watch I'm not sure. The point of the article was that in Kenya they are actually paying adult men to be circumcised. Apparently they have found that being circumcised reduces the risk of transmitting HIV. This action was supported by WHO. And I think is in part, funded by the UN.



Something to consider.

Amy - posted on 09/20/2012

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Nicki, that's not true. Even the most drastic forms of female circumcision have not been proven to remove all sensation. Male circumcision does decrease sensation and increase sexual problems, that's a fact. Most female circumcisions take the form of either a ritual nick or removing part or all of the clitoral hood - and this is banned in most Western nations. Male circumcision is comparable, at the least, to removing the clitoral hood and part or all of the labia minora, depending on the man.



Some links for consideration when making the comparison:



http://www.boystoo.com/fgm&mgm.htm

http://www.mummysg.com/forums/f40/have-y...



http://mamababahworld.wordpress.com/2009...



And on reduced sensation in men:



http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11...



"Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis".

It's worth noting that the most outspoken activists against FGM - circumcised women - are also vehemently opposed to male circumcision. They don't make the same distinctions that you do - because those distinctions are cultural, not biological or medical.

Nicki - posted on 09/20/2012

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I think to each their own. Someone mentioned female circumcision. That is much different. Female circumcision takes away any and all pleasure a female feels from sex. From what I know male circumcision does not. That isn't even comparable.

Mrs. - posted on 09/19/2012

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I think this is an issue that is very much like abortion. People tends to have a first gut reaction to it, a reaction that is a strong one. Then, because there is so much information out there, these days, on the internet, you can collect "facts" to back up whatever that gut feeling is. This goes for both side of the spectrum. The amount of divergent info out there is enough to convince anyone on any side that they are right.



Unless I feel there is enough unbiased info out there on a hot topic like this, it is best to leave it open and optional. If you don't want it done to your child, don't do it. If someone else feels deeply that it is, you may voice your disapproval, but not hinder their decision.



I believe most moms do the best for their kids that they can and also inform themselves based on their own set of morals/religion/life experience. So, even if I disagree with their decision, I support them.

Jennifer - posted on 09/17/2012

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Disagree. When I have have a boy he'll get a circumcision. Working at a nursing home I've seen the pain elderly men can go through when the skin isn't pulled back down and in some cases they get a circumcision at an elderly age..

Nicki - posted on 06/03/2012

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I think it should be every parents personal decision. There are pros and cons to each side of the issue and they need to be weighed accordingly by the parents. I personally don't think I would circumcise a son. But that's just me. I'm not going to tell any horror stories that I've heard about it not going to take either side on it.

Kyla - posted on 05/25/2012

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Agreed Krista E. But of course there's a much bigger picture in their view than just the circumcision aspect. For those of us not on that page it's tough to get.

Krista - posted on 05/25/2012

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This part of their religion is so important to them. She hates the fact that they have to do it. She hates the pain factor. She understands the mechanics of the foreskin and what is so good about it. But she is a faithful Jew and really loves G-d and really believes that this is something that he commands for their people. Whether you or I or anyone else can understand this or agree with it, she is no flake, and she is not stupid. But she really believes this aspect of her life and because she wants to please G-d more than men, she has allowed her two darling and beautiful sons to become circumcised.

Yeah, I feel bad for her, but I just don't get it. I don't understand how anybody could love a deity that tells me that I have to harm my child in order to please him.

Amy - posted on 05/25/2012

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I'd absolutely support a ban on all unnecessary infant genital cutting. Boys should have the same protection girls do. Adults can do whatever they like - get themselves circumcised, get labiaplasty, breast implants, whatever - but no one should have the right to trim another person's body to suit their own preferences. I'm my son & daughter's guardian, charged with caring for them until they're old enough to do it for themselves. I don't own them, so there's no 'right' to be making such a decision.

Kyla - posted on 05/24/2012

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Oh I agree with you whole-heartedly, but some people really truly believe in it. I mean if you really really really believed in a god who for whatever reason that you had to do "X" I suppose it would be hard not to. Again, I'm glad I don't have that obligation. But because I know these dear people I know that they have such great intentions and really want to do what they think is right.

Stifler's - posted on 05/24/2012

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I get what you mean but it will never make sense to me to hurt a child or do something you hate doing to someone else to please someone.

Kyla - posted on 05/24/2012

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I disagree with the ban. I'm pro-intact. Neither of my boys are circumcised. However I have a really close and beautiful friend who is Jewish. This part of their religion is so important to them. She hates the fact that they have to do it. She hates the pain factor. She understands the mechanics of the foreskin and what is so good about it. But she is a faithful Jew and really loves G-d and really believes that this is something that he commands for their people. Whether you or I or anyone else can understand this or agree with it, she is no flake, and she is not stupid. But she really believes this aspect of her life and because she wants to please G-d more than men, she has allowed her two darling and beautiful sons to become circumcised. These boys are like nephews to me and I do not see them any different than an intact one. I wish they didn't have to have it, but I highly respect why they do what they do even if I don't agree with it. And I believe that this ban would interfere with their religious obligation. Hope that makes sense?

Karen - posted on 05/23/2012

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Why even argue this? I think people should be able to make informed decisions - I did my homework when I got my son done - I looked into everything - and he is 11 and does't regret it - he doesn't remember it he was mere weeks old.

Let people decide for themselves what they want to do or don't want to do - why does everything have to become political? Why do we need to place such restrictions on people and what they feel they want to do and what is best...it's not the end of the world - men don't go around with their penis' hanging out checking out who has or has not been circumcised - honestly if a man feels that bad about what was done - there is a bigger issue at play than that...it's not just about that. I personally don't see what is to debate about - because no one is going to be happy with what anyone is saying when it comes to things like this. I think people have personal reasons for things and they should not be called out for feeling one way or another...or doing something you may find horrible - someone else may not feel that way - so let people do what they feel they need to and let them be...it's their lives, their children and as much as you would and do hate when people tell you how to raise your kids or what to do and not do - I am sure they feel the same way...so if you don't want people calling you out for how you feel about it, don't call out others for how they feel...I personally have a preference and so do others...I just happen to be for it...others are not...that is what makes the world go round - differences...

[deleted account]

The doctor, probably circumcised himself, wanted to cut your son to justify his own cutting and make MONEY. Circumcision is a multi-million dollar industry, $300-$1000 for 10 minutes of work. If in doubt, always follow the money trail.

[deleted account]

It is not a choice for the parents. They are not the ones having their penis reduced in size and scarred. It should only be a choice for the adult man who wishes it. 1% of men left intact (uncircumcised) as children will decide to get cut as adults for personal or medical reasons. That means that 99% of babies cut as infants and children would have decided NOT to be circumcised! This is a no-brainer, don't allow anyone to come at your new child with scissors, scalpels and knives. There is no medical reason to circumcise a newborn, cleaning and care is easy. Just wipe the outside of the penis, like you would a finger. No retraction of the foreskin, it is adhered to the glans like your fingernail to your finger. It will retract on it's own, the only person who should ever try to is the boy it belongs to. Don't affect your son's future sex life, leave him as nature made him. His body, His Choice.

[deleted account]

Uhhh, my husband doesn't like the fact that something was done to his penis without his consent. So not every circumcised man is ok with it. Is he mad at his parents? No. He knows they made what they felt was the best decision with the information they had. If we ever have a boy he will not be circumcised.





"I think it's more (rather than all the excuses you give for it) that you see it as normal in the states whereas those of us who live elsewhere in the world don't"



That is exactly right, Toni. Maybe someday we'll catch up to the rest of the world.

Ali - posted on 04/12/2012

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Sherri I had my son circumcised also and he seems fine. I dont see anything wrong with it. If it was so wrong than why would the doctor ask you if you wanted it done? After my son had his done 5 min later he was in my room eating and acting like nothing happened jeez must have not been that bad. Some people just need to chill out. Yes everyone has a opinion and just cause you have your son circumcised doesnt make you a bad mother and if you dont have him circumcised doesnt make you a bad mother.

Nikkole - posted on 04/11/2012

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NO medical organization in the entire WORLD recommends routine infant circumcision?? Huh! Amazing, isn't it? What the heck i$ up with all the$e doctor$ in the U.$. then?? ;-)

Oh, and also, 85% of the world's male population is intact and their junk isn't rotting off and they're not dropping dead from mystical foreskin diseases. How does anyone explain that?

Nikkole - posted on 04/11/2012

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Ali the baby can still feel the procedure being done! Because they are so little they can't fully numb the area, If you read some more into it you would know this, Dr. Sears is GREAT with information on circumcision (he's not for or against) he gives actual facts.


Teresa yes they don't remember but why does that make it any better? Your taking nerve endings (and the foreskin helps protect the penis) away and choosing to do a cosmetic surgery on your new born son i don't see how ANYONE doesn't see something wrong with that.

Krista - posted on 04/11/2012

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Of course they wouldn't remember it if it was done at infancy, Teresa. If my mom had had my labia removed at birth, I wouldn't remember that either.

Doesn't make it right, though.

And it's true that most circumcised men are okay with it. But has it never occurred to you that perhaps that is simply because circumcision is a common cultural custom? I'm sure if you asked a bunch of European men about it, they'd be horrified at the thought.

And just for the record, my own husband thinks it's mutilation. So there's a guy's perspective for you...

Teresa - posted on 04/11/2012

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Of all the men I have asked, NONe of them cried child abuse or even REMEMBERED being circumcised. In fact most hadn't even thought about it.

Ali - posted on 04/11/2012

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When a baby is circumcised they do pre-numb the penis before doing the procedure.

Krista - posted on 04/11/2012

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circumcision does not cut off the penis it pulls back the skin. some people dont know what their talking about.

You're right. Some people DON'T know what they're talking about. For example, some people think that circumcision just involves pulling back the skin. It doesn't. It involves surgically removing the foreskin from the penis.

Not one person here has said that circumcision involves cutting off the penis, by the way, so I have no idea where THAT statement came from.

Stifler's - posted on 04/10/2012

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I agree the foreskin is not that bad or dirty or a massive deal to wash. It should be up to the penis owner.

Nikkole - posted on 04/10/2012

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I think the decision to circ or not should be left up to the owner of the penis they have to live with it. And they don't cut the penis they cut the skin around the penis which is meant to protect the penis and has over 20,000 nerve endings and yes the numb the baby before the procedure but since they are so small they can't use a lot and they still feel the procedure. Dr. Sears talks about it and has great information (he is not for or against but shows both sides)!! I know a few men who are intact and have had ZERO problems and they say it's easy to keep clean i would do research and make the best decision and just think carefully people act like foreskin is a birth defect and it's not!

Ellen - posted on 04/10/2012

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circumcision does not cut off the penis it pulls back the skin. some people dont know what their talking about.

Krista - posted on 04/10/2012

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Um, Sherri...when you cut flesh, you are damaging it and causing an injury. If you remove a foreskin, that injury results in a loss.

Krista - posted on 04/10/2012

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harm (plural harms)



Injury; hurt; damage; detriment; misfortune.

That which causes injury, damage, or loss.





Seems rather straightforward to me.

Krista - posted on 04/10/2012

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Emma- you need to be respectful of what a parent chooses for their child. If they want to do circumcision then that is THEIR choice and THEIR choice alone.



You know...that argument was probably used by people justifying all kinds of whackadoodle child-rearing practices.



And frankly, I will only be respectful of what a parent chooses for their child, if that choice is not actually HARMING their child. Circumcision involves harming a child. So no, I am under absolutely no ethical responsibility to respect that choice. Sorry.

[deleted account]

I don't understand the thought process with it's easier to clean, I mean you women who circ your boys do teach your boys how to wash properly, I'm sure you do, so you still have the same process as those of us who don't circ...we both have to show our boys how to wash; with a foreskin when it is ready it freely retracts when washing anyway so there's nothing difficult to ensuring the boys penis is washed.



I think it's more (rather than all the excuses you give for it) that you see it as normal in the states whereas those of us who live elsewhere in the world don't.

[deleted account]

Look. Parents make all sorts of decisions for their children that are sometimes seen as "wrong" in other parts of the world where it is not common. Circumcision is one of the biggest issues. In the States, until recently, I believe it was just widely known practice that most boys were circumcised. It was done for many reasons, but I'd venture to say that very close to NONE of those reasons were abuse. You may see it as abuse, but it is not. My son is circumcised and I can assure you that, while I'd never do it again if I ever had another boy, I most certainly don't think of what I did to my son as abuse. Times are changing. Like me, many women are realizing the same things I realized after the fact (some before the fact). Change takes time. And yes, in the mean time, many babies will continue to be circumcised. But it's still not abuse. You have to allow time for people to either change their minds (or not).



You can't change Rome in a day. Right?

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