Negotiated Infidelity...

[deleted account] ( 26 moms have responded )

Could you and your SO in a million years even come close to an agreement like this?????

Sugarbabe Negotiated Infidelity Holly Hill - Former Mistress Memoir

New York (CNN) -- Could letting your man sleep with another woman help your relationship?

Author and former mistress Holly Hill thinks so.

"One of the main things that I have learned is that a woman that negotiates infidelity with her partner is far more powerful than a woman who is sitting home wondering why he's late from the office Christmas party," she says.

"It's better to walk the dog on a leash than let it escape through an unseen hole in the back fence."

Hill's memoir, "Sugarbabe" details her yearlong adventure with a series of so-called "sugar daddies." The book sold 24,000 copies in her native Australia, according to her publisher, and has just been released in the United States. Holly Hill is a pen name.

"I thought it was men that would like the book," she says, "But in fact it's women, because what it says to women is that if your man cheats on you, he still loves you, and he's probably running about average."

Allowing their men to stray is a concept that's difficult for most women to contemplate.

But Hill says that if a woman takes the time to truly examine her relationship and considers Mother Nature's unerring spell on men's libidos, she might realize that letting her boyfriend or spouse know she's OK with him having sex elsewhere is a logical way to prevent him from doing it in secret.

"I think that cheating men are normal," says Hill. "Monogamous men are heroes. Monogamy does have a place in relationships, but not on the long-term. Men are hard-wired to betray women on the long-term."

But psychology professor Lawrence Josephs believes it is more personality type than gender that indicates whether a person might cheat.

"People who are higher in narcissim -- whether they are male or female -- are more likely to cheat. People who feel entitled to it, people who have what's called avoidant attachment style where they tend to have more impersonal sex," are more prone to straying, he said.

The professor also said people who experience lower levels of empathy or guilt tend to engage in more infidelity.

Hill says, that of course it's every woman's right to refuse to have sex when she's not in the mood or has a headache. However, expecting men to cope on their own with no outlet whatsoever is shortsighted and cruel, says Hill.

The author, who holds a psychology degree from the University of Southern Queensland, says her experience as a "sugarbabe" taught her some valuable lessons about what drives men to seek sex outside marriage.

Finding herself in financial dire straits after her married boyfriend unexpectedly dumped her four years ago (he had persuaded her to quit her job and enjoy his financial support as part of "the mistress plan"), she decided to get creative about her employment options.

Hill, who was 39 at the time, posted an ad online announcing her search for a sugar daddy, someone who would pay her $1,000 a week in exchange for her company, cooking, conversation, massages and, when they desired it, sex. She says the ad attracted 11,000 responses.

At the time, Hill says she saw a distinct difference between what she was doing and prostitution.

"I thought that because I was a 24/7 exclusive mistress that I wasn't part of the world's oldest profession, but with hindsight I was, because what I was doing ... I was charging men for services, part of which included sex," says Hill.

However, she adds, any married woman who no longer loves her husband but continues to have sex with him to retain the comforts of being married could also be considered part of that oldest profession.

Most of Hill's "daddies" were wealthy married men who surprisingly often opted for conversation, she says. While entertaining with red wine and exotic food platters she'd prepare in her Sydney apartment, Hill learned that most of these men sought her attention because they simply weren't getting enough sex from their wives.

"Men need to get their rocks off," says Hill. "If a woman crosses her legs for any length of time and doesn't arrange some sort of alternative for her man, he is going to cheat on her."

By alternatives, Hill is referring to her idea of "negotiated infidelity." That shouldn't be confused with an open relationship, which to Hill "has no rules." Nor does it imply that it's necessary that a wife allow her husband to hop into bed with whomever he chooses -- unless of course she's OK with that. Hill says negotiated infidelity could mean hubby makes a trip to the local strip club for the occasional lap dance or updates his porn collection.

And in no way does it have to be a one-way street.

"Ideally the woman will want to stray as well," says Hill. "Some won't want to because they're at home taking care of toddlers. But the woman definitely needs to negotiate infidelity as well, especially because that will generate her man's competitive nature. The more lovers the woman has, the more attraction the man will have for his partner."

But how do women -- and men for that matter -- get past those ingrained feelings of possessiveness and jealousy?

"Women need to remember the difference between why women and men have sex," she says. "Women tend to value intimacy. For men it's often the thrill of the chase, or the quick sex with a stranger. Men don't even have to know their lovers' names! It's often just a cheap thrill and has nothing to do with us as a loving girlfriend or wife. Once we understand that, it's much easier to let him go off."

But Josephs doesn't think understanding will overcome jealousy.

"I think what's universal is that no one likes sharing partners -- whether you're male or female. I think jealousy is a kind of universal emotion," the professor said.

Her sugarbabe days now over, Hill lets her boyfriend of two years, Phil Dean "go off" on occasion. Hill says she believes negotiating their infidelity has been instrumental in keeping their relationship strong and committed, not to mention electric.

"[Dean] can have sex with the Australian women's basketball team for all I care, but he can't spoon any of them," says Hill. "For me, spooning is cheating."

Dean, 45, who works for an insurance company in Sydney, jokes that he hasn't slept with any members of the Australian basketball team. But he is a big supporter of negotiated infidelity.

"I was actually very relieved when Holly and I started to speak about it [at the beginning of the relationship]," he says. "She asked me if I'd be happy in a monogamous long-term relationship and I had to say 'no'."

And while Dean says he doesn't get jealous when Holly spends time with another lover, some of his male friends are certainly jealous of his relationship's flexibility.

"Some think it couldn't get any better than what I have," says Dean. "Some, however, don't want to embrace the concept. They feel protective of their partner and don't want to share."

Central to the idea of negotiated infidelity, Hill says, is each couple figuring out what their boundaries are. While she admits she shed a few tears at the start of her relationship as she and Dean tested their comfort levels with different arrangements (Dean also says it has definitely been a learning process), they're now very clear about what they will and won't allow.

While Dean has the green light to have sex with other women, he's not permitted to stay overnight. He also can't take his lovers away for romantic weekends. And Hill says she'll have an all-out hissy fit if he spoons another woman.

Hill, on the other hand, is allowed to spoon her lovers because Dean has no problem with that and recognizes that intimacy is an important part of sex for women. Hill isn't, however, allowed to wear any of the outfits Dean has bought for her when she meets up with a lover.

But how can Hill be sure Dean isn't spooning if she isn't there?

"If you're talking about sexual needs honestly with your partner, you get better at communicating with each other, you get better with honesty," says Hill. "Everything is out in the open and you have an honest relationship according to your man's biology, not according to some outdated social norms." (Hill is working on another book that will address why women also like to venture outside their marriages for sex.)

Those rules sound artificial to Marcella Weiner, adjunct professor of Marymount Manhattan College and author of "Repairing Your Marriage After His Affair: A Woman's Guide to Hope and Healing."

"Unless you're totally dead inside of you and have no heart or no brains or no anything -- when you're with another person, you're with another person," said Weiner. "It's not just here's my penis, here's your vagina that's it. It is for some people -- but that's a mechanical kind of thing."

While it may not be for everyone, Hill is optimistic that if more people embraced the idea of negotiated infidelity, cheating could become a thing of the past, leading to fewer divorces and truly happy lifelong relationships.

"We just have to be honest about the way nature created us, and we have to work with nature instead of working against her. This isn't rocket science. This is what every man already knows and I think what every woman deep down already knows."


Johnny - posted on 08/20/2010




Yep, cheating men are scum. But negotiated infidelity is a personal sexual choice. Some people may do it for the wrong reasons, but calling it disgusting is just rude.

If marital fidelity is a moral issue in your life, then don't sleep around and divorce your spouse if they do it to you. But it is not a moral issue in society. One couple's choice to have a threesome does not impact your marriage, it only impacts theirs.

Joanna - posted on 08/20/2010




Personally, I feel like telling my husband to go "cheat" ALL THE TIME. If he can't meet my needs emotionally, then I'm not able to meet his physically. And it takes a LOT to meet my needs emotionally. When he can't do it, I don't feel the intimacy, so we don't have sex. And I do feel bad. And he gets cranky without sex. So if he could possibly find someone to have sex with (not necessarily date), he'd be happier, and possibly more able to fulfill my needs emotionally since he's satisfied in that area, and in return would help me also fulfill his needs sexually. Although I would be okay never having sex again. Seriously, the thought of sex does nothing for me. So if he could find a lifelong sex partner to keep him happy in that area, and I could have him be my happy husband, that would be perfect.

I know I'm on the other side of the spectrum though, and I'm okay with that.

Johnny - posted on 08/17/2010




And I can not state how strongly I disagree with the concept that being married necessarily means that you are DONE and you have found the ONE person you will have sexual relations with for the rest of your life. Marriage means different things to different people. If it means fidelity to you & me, great. But it is not necessary to apply your relationship/marriage rules to others. Not all people vow to forsake all others. That does not negate the remainder and deep meaning of the rest of their marriage vows.

Sarah - posted on 08/30/2010




I cannot believe this woman! The outdated gender role stereotypes that she thinks are normal and acceptable! I feel like Holly Hill herself could set woman's lib back a few generations. Men are programmed to cheat, cheating men are normal, men crave sex more than women, men like random sex but women like intimacy. Blah blah blah. this woman is an Idiot when it comes to psychology and gender roles. Of course, the type of man who would pay to "keep" a mistress probably Does fall into those sort of outdated modes of thinking and I'm sure they prefer a 'little woman', personally I find it incredibly offensive. I'm not offended that some couples want negotiated infidelity (i think it's a crock, but that's my marriage, not yours) I'm offended by the idea that women should embrace the fact that it's normal for men to cheat! 1950 called, they want their ideals back!

Johnny - posted on 08/20/2010




Teresa, a using a term like immoral might more accurately describe that it falls outside what you believe to be right & wrong. Disgusting is what we call vomit or shit. To me, referring to someone else's private relationship choices using language that derogatory is offensive.

It's apparent from this thread, that those choosing open marriage are now subject to the same kind of deirision and hatred that same-sex couples are subjected to in many quarters and have historically been made pariahs by. I wonder how many here defend the rights of same sex couples while attacking those who choose to allow infidelity be a part of their marriage. They are both personal choices that don't effect YOUR life, why would you categorize them differently? (this question/comment is not directed to those who are also opposed to legal homosexuality, so you can ignore it).

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~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/28/2012




****ADMIN ALERT*****

This thread is 2 years old. I am locking it, but feel free to start another conversation on this issue.

~PD&HT Admin Little Miss~

Patricia - posted on 07/27/2012




Well said Jennifer if they can't keep it in their pants then they should not make the commitment in the first place

Patricia - posted on 07/27/2012




nothing short of a prostitute if they want to stray they should not be in a relationship

Ashley - posted on 08/31/2010




lol im not a man so i dont no what they think but i do no that i couldent deal with not being enough for my man but i also do not hold back in are relationship and ether does he so right now were great but if i was holding back would he cheat possibly i love and trust him but i also meet his needs if your not meeting there needs or your man isint meeting yous and you want to stay together and can comfortably get your needs met maybe outside the box but if it works for people good i do see both sides and honestly if he was going to cheat i would want to know. Not for everybody but for some im sure it would be great.

Tah - posted on 08/30/2010




this is a negotiated chop in the throat if i ever eeven brought this up in my house...

Jennifercounce - posted on 08/28/2010




Absolutely not.
What's the point in being married and what kind of example are you setting for your children?
Why do people act like they don't have control of themselves?
I don't buy that whole men can't help it crap. You are a grown man, don't make commitments if you can't keep them.

Nikki - posted on 08/21/2010




Each to their own I suppose, it would never work in my marriage, I don't like to share, and It take all of my energy just to keep up with my daughter and husband, let alone an extra willy on the side.

I think it is a little sad, I can't imagine being in a relationship where this kind of thing would be ok, one of the things I value most about my marriage is the commitment, stability, intimacy and trust we share.

Michelle - posted on 08/20/2010




This is sick. Hello what about STDs or worse Hep C or HIV and what passes it on to his wife or kids, come on now, this is criminal!

[deleted account]

Sorry to be rude, but IMO it is disgusting. I believe that sex was designed to be between one man and one woman forever. Anything outside of that is wrong. How else am I supposed to state that w/out being rude?

[deleted account]

I only read til it said 'cheating men are normal'. FALSE!! Cheating men are SCUM!!! 'Negotiating infedelity' is disgusting.

Jacquie - posted on 08/20/2010




Wow. Seriously? We wonder why children lack morals when apparently marriage vows mean nothing. Forsaking all others anyone? I mean, to me it would be a complete lack of respect to allow my husband to do this. It would be a spit in my face for him to flaunt the fact that I cannot meet his needs.

Lyndsay - posted on 08/18/2010




When I was younger, I dabbled in this with a boyfriend of mine. It wasn't long-term or anything, we were only dating for 4 months and we had a lot of kinky sex... but once we started having sex with other people, we completely lost interest in each other and went on our respective ways.

Now, would I ever consider letting my long-term spouse, the father of my child, randomly fuck other women? Most certainly not. If he dips his stick in another's oil pot, then he better be sure as hell she will let him come back for more, because I will not.

For other people? Maybe. Definitely not for me.

Louise - posted on 08/18/2010




You are playing with fire to let your man get away with this. How disrespectful to your partner whether male or female. I would never be able to look at my husband in the face again if I knew he had been with someone else. Open relationships are ok for some people as long as there are no children involved, each to there own. I am an old fashioned girl and my wedding vows ment alot forsaking all others! If your marriage is so bad that your husband has to get his rocks off somewhere else is this really a marriage worth saving?

Mae - posted on 08/18/2010




I agree that it is personality that determines if some one cheats. It might work for some people I won't argue but the people I know who tried it ruined their marriage, and what I don't understand and I really would like some one to explain it to me, somethings have changed includung the "living in sin" sterotype, why would you get married if you weren't done playing the field? I don't understand it but maybe it's just my religious take on marriage that is clouding the issue.

[deleted account]

Do what works for YOU in YOUR marriage BUT I don't agree that gender determines who cheats. I agree with Lawrence Josheps statement. " it is more personality type than gender that indicates whether a person might cheat."

Johnny - posted on 08/17/2010




I don't agree with Holly Hill's opinions. But I do think that open relationships are just fine if that is what works for both members of the couple. Open relationships are not cheating or "negotiated fidelity". They are a couple choosing a life together without the confines of fidelity. Not for me, but it works for some.

Jenny - posted on 08/17/2010




Can it be helpful? With most of the population, no. With some individuals, yes. All couples have different dynamics.

Mae - posted on 08/17/2010




Absolutely not. there are so many problems

I don't know where to start.

1-if you don't value yourself enough to insist on monogramy then why would anyone else value you enough to give it to you.

2-telling you SO it's okay to go out and screw around is asking for trouble

3- if cheating is the norm (I doubt it is) then I believe it's being caused by the "everything is about me" mentallity that we are creating. Couples are refusing to do anything for each other so each is looking for some one that will do something for them. I will gladly do anything for my husband. I cook, clean, do laundary, fix his plate, iron his clothes, make sure that he is satisfied it other aspects ;) and I do it gladly. He does the same for me. It's basic supply and demand= if you supply everything they want happilly there is no demand for mistresses. I know that infidelity happens even when one tries to please and in those cases it's the person's personality.

4- probably my best reason for being against it is that people get married because they are done looking, they found the ONE. If you want to sleep around why bother with getting married, and if cheating is the only way to save your marriage your probably better off letting it go.

You always have the best topics Meghan!

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