Checks and Balances

Sara - posted on 07/19/2010 ( 94 moms have responded )

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My husband and I were discussing the mega-wealthy, prompted by a discussion about Warren Buffet and Rupert Murdoch. I stated that the mega-wealthy should have to pay more in taxes, so the money they are hoarding can be put back into society at levels where it will be spent in commerce transactions and can create value.

The hubster added that progressive taxation is also important because the super-rich need to have some check placed upon their power.

This really got me thinking. As a "democracy," we usually place a lot of importance on checks to power. The branches of our government are supposed to be balanced so that power is shared, and cannot be concentrated into ever smaller groups of hands (I realize this isn't always the case, but let's suppose it for the purpose of this discussion).

However, there is no check in our system on the power of the super-wealthy. At the level of multi-billions, the numbers no longer represent purchasing power - it represents political power. The power to buy political candidates and influence legislation...even running themselves.

The wealthy may (or may not) have "earned" great wealth, but they certainly haven't been elected by the people whose lives their decisions affect. They act with great power, but they have no mandate. Their decisions affect everyone but they are not expected to act from any consideration other than their own narrow self-interest.


So my question is, should the mega-rich have checks and balances on their power? Or does the idea of checks and balances not apply to the power of wealth?

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[deleted account]

"But then you socialists think you are owed what wealth I have made."

Diane, this is one of the most insulting things you've said (and you've said a few!) What right have you got to make blanket comments about a philosophy you obviously know nothing about? Do you know anything about the socialist philosophy?

"It refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which the ownership of industry and the distribution of wealth are determined by the state or by agents of the state or the collective. ..."
www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Socialism. Many countries have aspects of socialism in their economy and political structure.

So basically if you use a government-funded service, you are involved in socialism. Have you ever used a government-funded health service? That's socialism. Have you ever participated in,or been defended by your country's militia? That's socialism.Have you ever iused public road, public transport etc? That's socialism.

OK? So don't come the high horse with me. Those who advocate socialism are not advocating that you give them your wealth. A socialist feels that the government should own and control major industries. There is certainly room for capitalism in a socialist country, but not many countries with their peoples' interests at heart can manage without aspects of socialism.

Socialists don't think we are owed your wealth - socialists believe they are all born with equal rights (note- born with equal rights, not born equal.). We all deserve a job, the right to live happily, the right to have equal access to health care, education, government services. These services can ONLY be provided through taxation. As I said, socialists don't feel we are owed all your wealth, but all citizens are owed equal rights.

Diane, you call yourself a Christian, but your posts are so filled with hate that I cannot believe it any more. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another to be hateful.

Incidentally, how am I to sell my computer on e-bay to someone who doesn't have a computer and therefore will not see my ad?

Jenny - posted on 07/27/2010

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Well Laci, we do both have dark hair. I'd tell Diane my name is tongue in cheek in response to people like her who believe anything that's not Capitalism is Communism but I doubt she'd read it right anyway. I did post quite clearly I support Direct Democracy.



I'm also done. I was crystal fucking clear in how I laid my post out and alI got in return was a whole bunch of words that don't really say anything. Stop wasting our time on this forum please. Either learn how to respond clearly and to what is ACTUALLY POSTED (see Exhibit A) or don't bother.



Exhibit A - “ think that being a doctor in a hospital is harder and more stressful than going to war.”



But we wouldn’t be at war…if Obama would bring the troops home like HE PROMISED. Our military should make more and get more benefits.

LaCi - posted on 07/26/2010

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"You know Laci you gave a lengthy list of Top Campaign Finance Recipients…all which you say are Republicans. You said nothing of the list of the richest politicians in the country that I posted…whom are mostly Democrats. Maybe they don’t need as much money because they have it all."





That's because I said in my second post I'd get back here about the richest corporations and people in the world. We're talking about the richest people paying more taxes, so I showed what the most profitable companies are doing, because it's not a matter of being clever or hard working, it's a matter of exploiting people and the planet, and IMO, complete lack of morality. If you'll look at my numbers, it includes democrats. It does NOT include Obama because my information stops at 2004.[censorship]. And while your at it stop accusing me of giving a shit about a democrat. I hate 99% of politicians equally, they're all corrupt pieces of shit.

Christa - posted on 07/21/2010

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Kelly, I love the way you word stuff I couldn't have said it better myself. :-)

I wanted to add, since people are always throwing out that top 5% number I wanted to point out from the article I posted that is anyone who makes more the 210K and that's by household. That's really not THAT much money, obviously I would take it in a heartbeat, but it's not millions or billions. That's people who have gotten law or medical degrees. Or people who have worked very hard in sales or engineering and moved up in the ranks. These are small business owners. MOST of these people did work very hard to get where they are. Even look at the Hollywood bunch, most of them were nobody's and busted their butts to get famous. Even Bill Gates started with almost nothing. Yes there are those who were born into billions and their great great great grandchildren will likely also be born into money, but those are not the majority. But even in their cases someone in their family busted their butts and why shouldn't their descendents enjoy the fruits of their labor? How would you feel if you busted your butt to save enough money for your child’s college and then someone came along and said you "stepped" on someone less fortunate to get that money and poor person A's child deserves that money more then your child. You wouldn't be too thrilled about that. Why are you ok with taking someone else’s money that they worked hard to give to their children? Until all of you "bleeding heart liberals" are willing to give EVERY last extra dime you have to the poor you have no right to want to take someone else’s. When all the liberal elite give away their fortunes and literally put their money where their mouth is, then they can continue their anti-capitalism B.S.. If all of you truly believed in the crap you spew you would already be doing all of this. So . . . ."either put up or shut up" as the saying goes. :-)

Kelly - posted on 07/21/2010

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I guess I can understand why so many people on this forum believe in Socialism. I have never in RL come across so many negative, cynical comments from people.

Mary Elizabeth, your comment is sad to me. You think being minimally happy is fine as long as it's stable and law abiding? I work hard and my husband works hard so that we can be MAXIMUMLY happy, and provide a happy life for our children. Who really wants to strive to be minimal at anything? (except socialists I guess)

LaCi, your comment is sad to me as well. I can't believe that you apparently feel that all successful people have stepped on others to get to where they are. I can assure you, you are wrong. Maybe it's the places I have lived, but I have come across, and worked for many people that started their businesses with nothing but a dream or a passion, and are now very successful. I have many entrepreneur friends from high school that are well on their way to being successful, about five that I know of that are already millionaires. (out of a graduating class of 130). I can assure you that they have stepped on no one to get where they are, and have helped many along the way. And by the way, I grew up in a small mountain town of Utah, not some mega-wealthy enclave.

On the flip side, obviously certain groups of poor people have bought into your same train of thought that they will always be poor, because they have given up trying to do anything other than be poor and have the government take care of them.

I guess overall I am shocked that apparently when some of you think of "rich" people, you only think of huge corporations and their CEO's. You are leaving out a huge portion of the "rich" that would be punished right along with the giants if we instituted re-distribution of wealth. Which is EXACTLY what higher taxes on the wealthy is.

And Sara, your intention when posting may have been to focus solely on wealth as it relates to politics. But I was sucked in by your first paragraph as well. So I think taxes on the wealthy are very much a part of this topic.

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LaCi - posted on 08/01/2010

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I don't feel I need to dig for stats for an hour to state the obvious. How many news reports on entire families who were victims of murder/suicides over the past oh, we'll go with 3 years, vs the three years beforehand? It's obvious. If you precise numbers, you have google, get on that. Now, while I did not find exact stats on it, heres some interesting news. :)



"July 8 (Bloomberg) -- Murders and suicides spike with unemployment, U.S. and European researchers said.



The scientists, who combed through almost four decades of European Union records, found that a 1 percent increase in joblessness brings about a 0.8 percent rise in suicide and murder rates. Government programs to help workers offer some protection, they wrote in the July 8 issue of The Lancet.--“The effects of a financial crisis depend crucially on how governments chose to respond,” lead researcher David Stuckler of Oxford University said in a telephone interview. “Financial crises cause significant hardships for many people, but they don’t have to cost them their lives.”



Stuckler, Martin McKee of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and colleagues said governments may be able to use the findings to help people better cope with the recession.



A bigger jump in joblessness made things worse, the researchers found. When the unemployment rate grew more than 3 percent, the increase in suicides was 4.5 percent."





"In that scenario, the scientists also found a 28 percent surge in deaths from alcohol abuse, a link that “lends support to the notion that short-term negative effects of unemployment mainly affect psychological distress,” they wrote.



There was a silver lining: the scientists found that for every 1 percent gain in unemployment, the number of road traffic accidents dropped 1.4 percent, a development they explained by the fact that people tend to walk more than they drive when times are hard.



Also on the brighter side, the rise in unemployment didn’t boost suicide rates in countries where governments spent at least $190 per person on programs to help workers keep their jobs or train for a new one, according to Stuckler. The U.S. and the U.K. spend less than that, and countries in central and eastern Europe have weaker protection for workers, the researchers said.



“Some places have done much better than others, even with the same levels of unemployment,” McKee said in an interview. “Those employment policies don’t interfere with the benefit you get in road traffic accidents. You are getting a win-win situation.”"







And some news articles that agree with my observation.



"The stresses of an economic downturn often lead to increases in domestic violence, and the current recession is no exception. Since October 2008, there has been a spike in familicides, or cases where a husband murders his entire family and commits suicide. "





"Neil Websdale, a professor at Northern Arizona University, argues that such killers share one common trait: a feeling that they’ve fallen short of societal ideals of manhood. A separate group of researchers is currently compiling the results of a 10-year study on familicide that has unsettling implications. According to preliminary findings, family killings have risen with the unemployment rate.



In general, causal links between the economy and murder are weak (witness declining murder rates across the country). But family annihilations are in a different class, says Jack Levin, a professor of sociology at Northeastern University and lead author of the soon-to-be-released 10-year study. As part of that upcoming study, he compared the number of such crimes in the first four months of 2008, when the unemployment rate was about 5 percent, to the same period in 2009, when the rate leaped to nearly 9 percent. Examining a narrow set of cases (those involving at least three victims and a suicide), he found that the number of incidents in the U.S. grew from seven to 12 and the number of victims from 29 to 56. "





Here's a chart about suicide and unemployment: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/19/murd...



Good to know you could quit your job if you'd like, those of us who have children to feed in areas where there are no jobs to be found are stuck with what they give us. Although I suppose It's completely feasible for me to tell him to quit his job, say I live alone as a single mother, and get welfare checks and food stamps.

Isobel - posted on 08/01/2010

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I don't know how many times I need to say this before you understand it...i agree with you...There have been many promises that he has not kept.

Slavery was not ended by an uprising of the workers or lower class...it was ended by a politician.

Diane - posted on 08/01/2010

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Again I ask for stats on this…….

“Of course, that is the reason for so many family murder-suicides in the past two years.”

Laura said, “well...I do find it necessary to remind people that Obama didn't start the wars in the Middle East, and that The Financial Crisis happened before he took office...yeah, the country was a mess when he got there...you can't blame it all on Obama.”

Oh yes… and I might remind you that Obama ran on ending the war. He is funding and supporting the war now. He had and has no intentions to ending the war. This month more were killed than any other month since the war started.

I stand by what I said…if people do not like their jobs…the option is always there.

There is no parallel in this…..

“just like you don't want to leave arizona even though there are problems there. the better solution would be for the government to help fix the problem right? see the parallel? maybe...”


The better solution would be for the government to round up all illegals and ship them back. I have the right to be here………..THEY DO NOT.

“Not to mention the worker uprising you're suggesting is the very foundation of communism. :)”

Of course only you would see it that way..right?

Was ending slavery a communist movement? LOL

LaCi - posted on 07/30/2010

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Not to mention the worker uprising you're suggesting is the very foundation of communism. :)



The worker bees no longer accept being exploited by the queens and overthrow the powers in play.. sounds familiar.

Rosie - posted on 07/30/2010

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ok, diane. FIRST, i was being nice and genuinely trying to give you another side of YOUR statement- you know the one that you claim you didn't say, but as we can all clearly see, i will cut and paste this for you :"The poor have an option, it might take the tougher road but it is there. They can quit the job that exploits them. All workers could quit. That would send a message wouldn’t it?" those are your words. you said for people to quit their jobs.

what you apparantly don't get about my comment is that you seem to feel that people should just quit something if they don't like the way it is run. the better solution would probably be for that company to treat it's employees better, and run itself in a more respectable manner right? just like you don't want to leave arizona even though there are problems there. the better solution would be for the government to help fix the problem right? see the parallel? maybe....

Isobel - posted on 07/30/2010

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well...I do find it necessary to remind people that Obama didn't start the wars in the Middle East, and that The Financial Crisis happened before he took office...yeah, the country was a mess when he got there...you can't blame it all on Obama.

LaCi - posted on 07/30/2010

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It's funny how she always acts as though we're going to blame bush when I have yet to see anyone blame bush for anything.

Fin.

Diane - posted on 07/30/2010

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“So have you talked to those poor people and blithely just told them to quit their job if their employer is exploiting them? How'd that go over?’

I know people who have quit their jobs because of work conditions yes. Have I talk to everyone? No

Have you talked to the ones who could work, and who aren’t because they are moochers? You never seem to put blame on people. Everyone has an excuse and the big guy is always at fault.

“Of course, that is the reason for so many family murder-suicides in the past two years.”

Please give stats on this. And I suppose it’s all Bushes fault too.
What happens if these big bad corporations said…….enough crap from the people here, they don’t like the treatment….we are closing our doors and moving out. Can you imagine the uproar from people like you? OMgosh…. How can they win. Nobody is happy, they all want to work less hours for more money, and every benefit known to man.

Laura…hit a nerve with this one…”I will remind you though Diane, that the thread is about checks and balances for the super wealthy (and I have asked for an example of one billionaire who has not broken the laws of the free market or hurt people and the planet to make their billions)...not Illegal immigration.”

Oh is it really Laura. Like I am the only one again who gets off topic. Why don’t you suggest I get banned again for a week to think about how bad I am. You look at any conversation on and people stray from the topic.

Geeze……..shaking head.

I brought the immigration thing up because it was a personal invitation. Krista sarcastically suggested I take a walk into a poor neighborhood…so tell me what that has to do with Checks and Balances…and what you just told me to focus on?

And I would bet we ALL..try to save money on our taxes. Are you telling me that ALL people don’t fudge on the numbers?

Kati said, “with your rationale that everybody should just quit their jobs, i could say that why don't you move out of arizona if you don't like it there? if it's so damn horrible to live there, and illegal immigrants are cramping your style, then just move.”

just showing you a different angle on that one :)”

I am horrible and mean for being sarcastic but you guys do it and it’s a whole different thing,,creative expression. Most your comments to me are sarcastic. I never said that everyone should quit their jobs.

And about the crack about Arizona…..Why should I leave the state…I love it. I think our governor rocks, and I love the people here. Why should I leave? What don’t you get kati?
Your comment was ridiculous. I AM A TAX PAYING CITIZEN. THEY ARE HERE AGAINST THE LAW. What don’t you get?

“Anyone else banging their head against the desk? I know I am.

the phrase, "Why can't Johnny read?" is runing amok in my brain.”

I am because I can’t figure out why you do not get it.

[deleted account]

Anyone else banging their head against the desk? I know I am.

the phrase, "Why can't Johnny read?" is runing amok in my brain.

Rosie - posted on 07/30/2010

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with your rationale that everybody should just quit their jobs, i could say that why don't you move out of arizona if you don't like it there? if it's so damn horrible to live there, and illegal immigrants are cramping your style, then just move.

just showing you a different angle on that one :)

Isobel - posted on 07/30/2010

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That's another problem with the "free-market" system in the States, in theory, Diane is right...workers SHOULD be able to choose the job that treats them the best (it really is a great THEORY...just like communism is).

Unfortunately, like I stated before the "free market" that is operating in the US is nothing like that...all the companies pay the lower skilled employees the same rate, and treat them pretty much just as poorly as each other...so yeah, you COULD quit your job...but the guy down the street is just as bad or worse than your boss.

I will remind you though Diane, that the thread is about checks and balances for the super wealthy (and I have asked for an example of one billionaire who has not broken the laws of the free market or hurt people and the planet to make their billions)...not Illegal immigration.

LaCi - posted on 07/30/2010

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I don't think anyone said you've never seen poor people. I think all that's been stated is your worldview must be completely skewed if you think everyone can just quit their job to make a statement. "My employer mistreats me, so I'll just quit and let my family starve to death to make a statement, since I know I won't be able to find another job now" Of course, that is the reason for so many family murder-suicides in the past two years. Excellent solution! kill your family and yourself because america is not the land of opportunity, at all. The alternative? starve to death, freeze to death, die of heat exhaustion, depends on where you are and the season. I'll let my boyfriend know he can quit his shitty job when he gets home, we'll live under an overpass. It's all good.

Krista - posted on 07/30/2010

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So have you talked to those poor people and blithely just told them to quit their job if their employer is exploiting them? How'd that go over?

Diane - posted on 07/30/2010

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And honey come out here to Arizona, you can take my car and you can have if for the weekend...go down and walk around the desert around the border. I will even give ya a gun. Take a picnic basket, be sure to take enough water and a camera...
Let me know what ya see.

Do you think that at 54 years old I do not and have not seen or worked or known poor people?

Do you think that everyone I know has a job or has not seen hardship? Who do you think you are?

I am a kind person and I help people everywhere I go. I have compassion for people and situations. I believe that some people need help...but like I said, a great many are lazy and are doing nothing but mooching off the government. I believe in taking personal responsiblity for ones own actions.

Let me know if you would like a southern Arizona vacation. Just bring a lot of bullets with you,.....ya might need em.

Krista - posted on 07/27/2010

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The poor have an option, it might take the tougher road but it is there. They can quit the job that exploits them. All workers could quit. That would send a message wouldn’t it?

Tell you what, Diane. You go take a walk to a poor neighbourhood, where people are working crap jobs and still barely making ends meet. Where one medical emergency could mean that they lose their home. Where they often have to choose between paying the light bill or paying the rent.

Tell them that if they're feeling exploited by their employer, that they should just quit.

Then report back to us and let us know how it went, m'kay?

LaCi - posted on 07/27/2010

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Might I advise we stick to single sentence responses? or would phrases then be left off/unread to completely destroy an idea?

Isobel - posted on 07/27/2010

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I know...you could make tapes proving how all black people are racist!!! You'd be awesome at that!

LaCi - posted on 07/27/2010

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what a waste of our time.



Reason number one why I think you need to work on reading comprehension: You quoted me (multiple times) saying ”As for the doctor salary, the average emergency medicine doctor pulls 200k per year. I DO think the average factory worker should make significant amount more, and I think anyone who has ever worked in a factory would agree.” AND I SAID the average factory worker should make at least 40k per year (try to read an entire fucking statement) and yet you have somehow construed THAT into my saying that a factory worker should make as much as a doctor. How many doctors do YOU know that make 40k per year? 40 does NOT equal 200. and you called ME a commie. maybe you just need some refresher courses in counting? Or maybe you should go work for glenn beck, et al, since you're SO fantastic at leaving out entire sentences to attempt to prove people are commies who want to steal all the wealthy folks' money.



I think I'll go do something constructive now. Don't bother responding to my post, I'm finished.

Isobel - posted on 07/27/2010

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First off, Diane, I have been nothing but respectful to you in EVERY conversation, I would expect the same in return. In this one post, you called me (or my words) stupid and you mocked my education.

Let me tell you Diane, it's clear that you haven't been to business school...cause I don't believe you can call it a liberal experience hahaha.

Prancing around and enjoying your wealth is not the same as exploiting the poor to make it Diane, in regards to Oprah...let's try this a THIRD time...maybe you'll read this one "
I already stated that I DON'T think stars "deserve" that much money...but like I said, in my rational they get to keep it because they have not exploited and harmed society to get it (in fact many of the extremely wealthy ones make a concerted effort to help the down trodden but that's another issue)"

I'm waiting for an example of a clean billionaire (who is not a celebrity...cause I've already stated my feelings about them three times)

Diane - posted on 07/27/2010

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“Immediately, all you do is jump on someone and tell them they're a commie rather than actually debate.”

This coming from you ???????????????? LOL

Now what name does she have below her picture? Jenny the Commie Canadian. Can’t you read? She says she is a Communistm she is proud to be a Communist.

Laci said, “Of course I take the COST of education into consideration and the stress that will follow. I haven't once said that I want everyone at the same economic level, you're not even reading anyone's posts.”

You said,……..”As for the doctor salary, the average emergency medicine doctor pulls 200k per year. I DO think the average factory worker should make significant amount more, and I think anyone who has ever worked in a factory would agree.”

This is an absurd statement and shows exactly what I was getting at.

“I don't believe in someone making 100k per day, in any job.”

Does this limit freedom at all?

You said, “I haven't once said that I want everyone at the same economic level, you're not even reading anyone's posts.”

You imply it here because you place limits on what people can own and make.

Is a hundred thousand a day….obscene? and whether it is or not…you place limits on people. You judge as to what is right and wrong based on your opinion.

“someone who refuses to actually read what's in front of her.”

Maybe the person posting should be more careful and clearer about what she posts…because the statement you made reads to me at least that you think factory workers should make more.

“because it's not a matter of being clever or hard working, it's a matter of exploiting people and the planet, and IMO, complete lack of morality.”

Judgmental on all accounts.

Magazines and music exploit people…and so does sports and the entertainment field, television, modeling, politicians,
But all people and groups potentially in these categories have the freedom to say no.

You said this..” So yes, I will completely defend my point about the rich getting rich off the backs of the poor.”

The poor have an option, it might take the tougher road but it is there. They can quit the job that exploits them. All workers could quit. That would send a message wouldn’t it? As I said before, if ya don’t like the way Hooters girls dress, then do not apply, but do not force the company just because you don’t like it, to comply to YOUR demands.

I do believe that safety issues are different and these companies should be forced to provide a safe work environment for employees. If not they have every right to sue. And in large companies there usually are lawsuits.

“I find it interesting that you think a dude who does boob jobs is worth more than the firefighters and police that save your life AND your personal property on a daily basis...I think it's HILARIOUS that you think that being a doctor in a hospital is harder and more stressful than going to war.”

I believe a person should be able to work for what is offered to them. Boob jobs? You would say something stupid like that. LOL
Far more doctors save lives and make the quality of life better for us. I won’t even dignify your statement with anymore than that, because if you can’t see the difference than I don’t know what else to say.

“ think that being a doctor in a hospital is harder and more stressful than going to war.”

But we wouldn’t be at war…if Obama would bring the troops home like HE PROMISED. Our military should make more and get more benefits.

“but like I said, in my rational they get to keep it because they have not exploited and harmed society to get it (in fact many of the extremely wealthy ones make a concerted effort to help the down trodden but that's another issue)”

Rational thinking about this? Please….they don’t exploit anyone? They look down at the little people for crying out loud. They prance around in their private jets traveling to their many homes. So they do a lot for their fellow man so they are ok? LOL

Laura “Show me a billionaire and I will show you how their fortune was built to the detriment of society or by breaking your precious free market rules (you do know I'm in business school right? I'm not a couch potato either, I know a little about your system. 'Really, I'm serious...find me a clean one...cause I don't think it'll be easy.”

Yes you know it all…don’t you because you're in some liberal business school probably taught by liberal professors who hate capitalism…oh and America and how it came to be so successful. My precious freemarket you say? So what Laura I bow to you because you're in school? That makes you the expert? I might not have gone to business school but
my husband and I have owned businesses for some thirty five years I think we know something about taxes and profit …Do you have anything other than book knowledge Laura? It is sad that you think making a profit is evil, because it is the principles of a free market system that has made America great. Americas entrepreneurs help to turn science into wealth. Business are allowed to thrive here because of that.

It is sad that you think that the “rich” are not hard working that they simply exploit their way to wealth. look at Americas inventors....Edison was backed by the Vanderbilts….can you imagine had they not funded his ventures? And Henry Ford through his hard work focused his inventions for the average American. Sure he was rich…he deserved it. He built the car and high price came down every year until the country was motorized and transportation was available to everyone. Did he exploit the poor? Because people traveled more along the roads by car and were more mobile…. Howard Johnson created his restaurants so that people could eat while traveling. With out the rich and the men and women who invented things and the rich who were allowed to back them…what would we have today? I will tell you one thing….without Gates you probably would not be communicating on your computer today. And Jonas Salk….did you ever get a polio vaccine? How much of a salary should he have gotten?

Capitalism produces mass affluence and it extends to ordinary people the same things that are available to upper class….the American Dream. Ever hear of Oprah Winfrey? Did she exploit the little people to get where she is today? Now I do not particularly care for her, but I admire the fact that she worked her tail off, and despite the sad childhood she had...turned her circumstances around....and hit the jackpot.... as many million and billionaires do. She did not sit back and complain...she worked and used the system to her advantage.

You know show me people on welfare and I will show you some who abuse of the system…. for some this a permanent form of income a way of life.
Show me people on unemployment and I will show you some who stay on compensation and don't look for a job until before they know the benefits are going to run out. It’s a cycle.

There simply are a lot of people who are lazy. And there are too many people on welfare who can work but refuse to do so. They feel the rich owe them, they feel the government owes them. I am not saying that there are not people who truly need assistance…but those people that really need it, use it, get off fast, and find work.

Whats that old saying...what you think about is what you bring about. For a lot of you to bash those who have made mega money is ridiculous. And whether you would ever admit it or not…there are differences both bad and good between those who are rich and those who are poor. Situations can change…but its mindset. Stop thinking about what you don’t want in your life and focus on the things that you do. And quit blaming someone who has more than you do.

But to fault someone who has money…well its self defeating in itself. The people who do this come across as bitter and jealous.
I look at it this way…. The rich mans heart breaks…just like the poor mans.
Money can’t buy everything but you do not have the right to stop someone from trying or controlling what they have.

Isobel - posted on 07/27/2010

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I find it interesting that you think a dude who does boob jobs is worth more than the firefighters and police that save your life AND your personal property on a daily basis...I think it's HILARIOUS that you think that being a doctor in a hospital is harder and more stressful than going to war.



I already stated that I DON'T think stars "deserve" that much money...but like I said, in my rational they get to keep it because they have not exploited and harmed society to get it (in fact many of the extremely wealthy ones make a concerted effort to help the down trodden but that's another issue)



Show me a billionaire and I will show you how their fortune was built to the detriment of society or by breaking your precious free market rules (you do know I'm in business school right? I'm not a couch potato either, I know a little about your system. 'Really, I'm serious...find me a clean one...cause I don't think it'll be easy.

Jenny - posted on 07/27/2010

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No Diane, you do not see where I'm coming from. Pretty much everything I wrote went right over your head. What a waste of time that was.

LaCi - posted on 07/27/2010

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I would hardly consider "bite" or "me" potty words. maybe "fuck", as in fuck off. That's a potty word, but I didn't say it.



Immediately, all you do is jump on someone and tell them they're a commie rather than actually debate. You're only response to anything here is "you don't believe in freedom" so why do you even continue posting? Did I not mention I'm going to school in hopes to save lives? What exactly do you think that means? Of course I take the COST of education into consideration and the stress that will follow. I haven't once said that I want everyone at the same economic level, you're not even reading anyone's posts. You cut and paste, zone in on a single phrase and attack the whole idea without understanding-at all-what anyone is saying. No one has said everyone has to make the same amount of money, no one has mentioned communism, and everyone, that i've seen, has referred to people who make obscene amounts of money, not people who make up the bottom of the upper class.



I said I DON'T think doctors make too much, by the way, and I said I don't think factory workers should make the same amount as doctors. When you stop twisting everybody's words around to say what YOU want them to say, then you get back to me. Until then, I have nothing to say to you, because there's no point in arguing via text with someone who refuses to actually read what's in front of her. kthxbai! :/

Diane - posted on 07/27/2010

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“First of all...there were no swear words in "Miss Potty Mouth"'s post.”

She took it off,,,,end of story lets move on.

“No, I don't think that doctors and factory workers deserve the same wages...do you know who I think DOES deserve the same wages as doctors? Teachers, soldiers, Police, and Firemen...those who mold the future generations and risk their lives for the betterment of society.”

While I think police and firemen and women…deserve more pay, they risk their lives on a daily basis to protect us. Doctors however save lives as well. They spend a lot of money, time and energy…on becoming a doctor. It is not an easy life, not all its cracked up to be. For many doctors its long hours and it’s very stressful.

“It's funny that you mention stars...because I thought of them earlier when I was making my post. While I HATE that our society values their contributions so highly, at least they are not what I consider criminals (well, except for Mel Gibson and the like ;P)”
They are entertainment….do they really deserve millions and millions for the movies they make?

Not all CEO’s are criminals. More movie starts are criminals. They just get away with it and our courts bend over backwards to let them out. If Lindsay Lohan were in Arizona…she would be facing harsh and long jail time at tent city. Her crocodile tears and her nail in which FU was painted on would not have gone over well with our judges.

“Me: Agreed. They ALL make too much. I'd set the cap at $1 million per year across the board.”

Thank gosh you can’t do this. You have no right to put any cap on what they make, however absurd the amount is.
“Me: I don't understand what you are trying to say. Please clarify.”

Are you taking the fifth?

“Me: It's not that I don't want the technology. It's that I don't want to buy a piece of shit. The products are deliberately designed to break down, don't you have a problem with that?”

Well with new technology…come new products and people usually want the best and the latest. There is nothing wrong with this. I might not keep buying the latest stuff on the market but if someone else wants it and has the money to afford it, then they should have the right to buy it.

I disagree. I have many products that have never broken down. Like what products are you talking about? I have had the same Jeep for years….and never has it been in the shop. I have had five Jeeps and never had a problem with any of them. I have had the same Samsung phone for four years….never been in the shop. We have owned the same VIZEO television for four years and it works perfectly. What products are you talking about. The computer I am on is four years old and never had a problem.
“Me: They were purchasing houses they were tricked into believing they could afford. We bought a house at the peak of the market in Canada and had to jump through hoops to prove we were worthy of a mortgage. It's a big reason Canada weathered the economic storm so well. There's so many homeless people and so many peopleless homes. It's such a no brainer to me that they need to match up.”

LOL

Oh please…the blame game. I do not buy it one bit. We know exactly what we can afford. No one pressures us into it. People charge and buy stuff that they should not buy because they don’t have the money.

“I believe society functions better when the people make the decisions.’

You must give them freedom to be able to do this.

“Me: Not exactly. I don't support prohibition of any substance. Nobody has the right to tell another adult what they can put in their body. We already have laws that cover the side affects of drug abuse (assault, theft etc.). Domestic abuse comes from another place and has nothing to with substances except for escalating pre-existing behaviours.”

Then you probably are against banning cigarette smoking then right? And you probably think there should be no laws against pregnant women doing drugs or drinking while pregnant. You no doubt are pro-prostitution…and people being able to deal drugs.

You want them to be able to control their own bodies….but you want to limit what they do with them to make money. You are very naïve and wrong about alcohol and drugs. Spousal abuse has a direct correlation with alcohol. Better do some research on that one. It aggravates the situation.

Drug abuse is a disease of the brain and the drugs change brain chemistry, which results in a change in behavior.

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/abuse/a/b...

http://psychcentral.com/news/2007/04/24/...

“Drunk driving deaths (11,773) accounted for 32% of the total amount of United States car accident deaths (37,261) in 2008.”
http://www.edgarsnyder.com/drunk-driving...

• A drunk driver kills someone every 39 minutes.
• A drunk driver injures someone every minute.
• Eight teenagers die every day in alcohol-related car crashes.

http://www.learn-about-alcoholism.com/dr...

These deaths are totally preventable. You outlaw booze and you slap prison time for anyone caught in a drinking.

“I don't think I'm an idealist. I believe I have good ideas that could benefit people and I enjoy sharing them.”

I see where you are coming from I really do. But you still want to limit someones freedom to some extent. We all have ideas that society could benefit from…but without freedom we stand on nothing.

I also am in favor of the supremacy of the laws in our country and making sure they are enforced. There are many laws I follow that I think are wrong…but as a citizen I must follow them. I believe in freedom of expression, and religion. . I am very concerned as you are well aware of that we are losing our individual freedoms in the United States and that the present administration will do all it can to take them away from people. They are pitting black against white and rich against poor.

Jenny - posted on 07/26/2010

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Diane: It’s funny none of you have brought up movie stars and entertainers and sports stars. Some get millions for just four rounds of golf. How much is Tiger worth? How about Michael Jordan? Oprah? Politicians? What about them? Do they deserve what they make? Do they deserve to keep it? Or should the government force them to give most their money away?

Because it’s the same thing here really. CEO’S aren’t the only ones who have mega money.



Me: Agreed. They ALL make too much. I'd set the cap at $1 million per year across the board.



Diane: Jenny said, “Me: I do not believe freedom is found in money.”

But then that is YOUR OPINION. You always say that I should be tolerant. What about you?



Me: I don't understand what you are trying to say. Please clarify.



Diane: If you are not materialistic then so what…other people just might be.



Me: Yes, that is the problem, I thought I made that clear in my posts.



Diane: “That’s not freedom to me.”



Well Jenny…..you’re so intolerant. And you say Christianity is intolerant…LOL. You just made fun of the many hard working people who both work to support their families. Then you made fun of day cares….wow. Isn’t your view just true for you? LOL Why should anyone think that your view might apply to them?



Me: I don't understand what you are trying to say. Please clarify.



Diane: “Freedom to me means being able to set foot on any part of the planet I see fit. It means not being forced into economic slavery just to feed my family.”



Now you might not be this way at all…..but you sound to me like a couch potatoe that wants to mooch off the government because you are too lazy to work and don’t think you should have to. What is wrong with hard work and sacrifice?



Me: I work by choice. My partner makes a very good wage in the trades but I have the type of personality where I need to exercise my mind. I started in clerical 5 years ago and now do all financial work including full cycle accounting, marketing, website development ( I had us listed #1 in our chosen category on Google in 2 months), design and am almost finished completing our drafting program for a custom wood furniture manufacturer. I can draft cabinetry and wood furniture for an entire house including accurate cut lists, 3D rendered drawings and a complete set of shop drawings. I do all this PT while maintaining my family, my dogs and my home. I am by no means a couch potato.



Diane: “ You can’t buy one Ipod for life.”



Why don’t you move to quakerville….or amish land. They do not even have them. It has always been that products are replaced for better ones. The washing machine, the car….the telephone….the radio…..airplanes….our highways..etc. It’s called technology. Are you against that as well? You certainly like communicating on a computer. Look how that has evolved.

And you do not have to buy a new one every few months.



Me: It's not that I don't want the technology. It's that I don't want to buy a piece of shit. My 2 year old just threw my 7 year old's Christmas/birthday Ipod in her fishtank, why aren't they waterproof as a default?



Aside from that, the products are deliberately designed to break down, don't you have a problem with that?



Diane: “Tough luck, all these empty foreclosed one are for the bank, go live in your van.”



Most foreclosures are the peoples fault. They bought houses that they could not afford to begin with. Banks loaned these people money, they knew didn’t have it. They gave credit cards out like running water…and the people charged them up to their limits.



Me: They were purchasing houses they were tricked into believing they could afford. We bought a house at the peak of the market in Canada and had to jump through hoops to prove we were worthy of a mortgage. It's a big reason Canada weathered the economic storm so well. There's so many homeless people and so many peopleless homes. It's such a no brainer to me that they need to match up.



Diane: “Not enough money exists to pay off the debts of the people so defaults are built into the system to correct it.”



Hey Obama to the rescue…OBAMA MONEY…GIMME GIMME GIMME. Anyone can walk away from their home scotfree. Sure their credit might be bad…but they won’t have the bill collectors on their tail.



Me: I was speaking in much broader terms than someone racking up a credit card.



Diane: “Is that your version of freedom?”

My version of freedom is a lot broader than yours. You want the government to run peoples lives because you are satisfied with less so you think everyone else should want less. What about people who want more? What about people who love hard work and innovative thinking? What you think are necessities in life might not be what someone else thinks.



Me: Wrong. I advocate Direct Democracy. I believe society functions better when the people make the decisions. There doesn't need to be a government aside from the implementation level and we administer through technology. By the people, for the people. I am more of a Libertarian but believe society needs some “norms” to keep things sane. Those things are common morals. Don't harm others pretty much encompasses it all. I believe we can maintain a safer, more cooperative society by providing all individuals the necessities in life and putting our efforts towards the collective good of our species. Direct Democracy makes people want to be active in their government because they experience their decisions affecting their lives. Right now we have elites running the show and most of society is apathetic.



Diane: “They are less likely to commit crimes.”



Well I think outlawing all drugs and alcohol would take care of that. Domestic violence, DUI’s etc. No drinking period…outlaw it. Freedom?????



Me: Not exactly. I don't support prohibition of any substance. Nobody has the right to tell another adult what they can put in their body. We already have laws that cover the side affects of drug abuse (assault, theft etc.). Domestic abuse comes from another place and has nothing to with substances except for escalating pre-existing behaviours.



Diane: You want everyone to live at ONE ECONOMIC LEVEL AND THAT WILL NOT WORK because some people are just more motivated and smarter than others. Sorry it’s the truth.



I am not saying you are stupid…but we would not be here today with technology, etc…if we lived like you want in your perfect world.



If you want someone then go get it. If you don’t then sit at home and live with what you want. But do not stop someone who wants more. And do not make him give you things you think you are owed and simply do not want to work for.



Me: I don't want everyone to maintain one economic level, I don't believe economies are relevant to long term sustainability. For long term progress we have to be one and work together. I hope I have shed some light on where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to take more. I have everything I need and am capable of maintaining it all on my own. I don't think I'm an idealist. I believe I have good ideas that could benefit people and I enjoy sharing them.

Isobel - posted on 07/26/2010

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First of all...there were no swear words in "Miss Potty Mouth"'s post. here's how you quoted her...calling names for no reason is just silly. and if you can find a swear word in here...please let me know, cause I checked three times (you're just being rude)

“As for the doctor salary, the average emergency medicine doctor pulls 200k per year. I DO think the average factory worker should make significant amount more, and I think anyone who has ever worked in a factory would agree. 40k per year minimum would be an acceptable factory wage. But in our society, the less you break your back the more money you make. Anyway, a doctor's salary and the salaries of the obscenely rich CEOs aren't even comparable. I think I said before, I'm not concerned with the poorest of the rich, I'm concerned with people having ridiculous amounts of money while other people are starving, can't afford a roof over their heads, etc. I absolutely believe in people having the opportunity to make money, and even be wealthy. I don't believe in someone making 100k per day, in any job.”

No, I don't think that doctors and factory workers deserve the same wages...do you know who I think DOES deserve the same wages as doctors? Teachers, soldiers, Police, and Firemen...those who mold the future generations and risk their lives for the betterment of society.

It's funny that you mention stars...because I thought of them earlier when I was making my post. While I HATE that our society values their contributions so highly, at least they are not what I consider criminals (well, except for Mel Gibson and the like ;P)

Diane - posted on 07/26/2010

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Krista there is something called freedom. No one has the right to tell someone they have to donate to help anyone. Our Constitution does not say that people have the right to free education, free health care, vacations, cars etc…

Mary Elisabeth said I asked a question and you did not obviously want to answer.

Here it is again. “Should a factory worker on the line make as much as a doctor in an emergency room?”

“I am talking about the CEO's and CFO's and other "officers" of multi-national corporations who make more money in a quarter than my husband and I will make in a life-time;”

It’s funny none of you have brought up movie stars and entertainers and sports stars. Some get millions for just four rounds of golf. How much is Tiger worth? How about Michael Jordan? Oprah? Politicians? What about them? Do they deserve what they make? Do they deserve to keep it? Or should the government force them to give most their money away?
Because it’s the same thing here really. CEO’S aren’t the only ones who have mega money.

Call it fate, luck of the draw…or whatever you want to call it… these people should not be forced to give it all up just because there are jealous people who don’t have what they have. If a company pays their CEO’s this amount then they should get it. If the people who own stock in the company do not like it…then they should take action. If you think the CEO of a company makes to much…then boycott the product. If you disagree with the pay a CEO makes at your company…quit.

If people think basketball players make too much…then do not pay the big bucks to go to see them.

MIss potty mouth said this, “As for the doctor salary, the average emergency medicine doctor pulls 200k per year. I DO think the average factory worker should make significant amount more, and I think anyone who has ever worked in a factory would agree. 40k per year minimum would be an acceptable factory wage. But in our society, the less you break your back the more money you make. Anyway, a doctor's salary and the salaries of the obscenely rich CEOs aren't even comparable. I think I said before, I'm not concerned with the poorest of the rich, I'm concerned with people having ridiculous amounts of money while other people are starving, can't afford a roof over their heads, etc. I absolutely believe in people having the opportunity to make money, and even be wealthy. I don't believe in someone making 100k per day, in any job.”


Of course you say this…you’re a commie who does not value freedom. Let’s not take into consideration the schooling and money it took to go through to become a doctor. And hey honey if you are sick and need help…………..go to a factory worker.
“I don't believe in someone making 100k per day, in any job.’
Of course you don’t, you do not believe in freedom.

Jenny said, “Me: I do not believe freedom is found in money.”
But then that is YOUR OPINION. You always say that I should be tolerant. What about you?

If you are not materialistic then so what…other people just might be.

“That’s not freedom to me.”

Well Jenny…..you’re so intolerant. And you say Christianity is intolerant…LOL. You just made fun of the many hard working people who both work to support their families. Then you made fun of day cares….wow. Isn’t your view just true for you? LOL Why should anyone think that your view might apply to them?
“Freedom to me means being able to set foot on any part of the planet I see fit. It means not being forced into economic slavery just to feed my family.”

Now you might not be this way at all…..but you sound to me like a couch potatoe that wants to mooch off the government because you are too lazy to work and don’t think you should have to. What is wrong with hard work and sacrifice?

“ You can’t buy one Ipod for life.”

Why don’t you move to quakerville….or amish land. They do not even have them. It has always been that products are replaced for better ones. The washing machine, the car….the telephone….the radio…..airplanes….our highways..etc. It’s called technology. Are you against that as well? You certainly like communicating on a computer. Look how that has evolved.
And you do not have to buy a new one every few months.
“Tough luck, all these empty foreclosed one are for the bank, go live in your van.”

Most foreclosures are the peoples fault. They bought houses that they could not afford to begin with. Banks loaned these people money, they knew didn’t have it. They gave credit cards out like running water…and the people charged them up to their limits.

“Not enough money exists to pay off the debts of the people so defaults are built into the system to correct it.”

Hey Obama to the rescue…OBAMA MONEY…GIMME GIMME GIMME. Anyone can walk away from their home scotfree. Sure their credit might be bad…but they won’t have the bill collectors on their tail.

“Is that your version of freedom?”


My version of freedom is a lot broader than yours. You want the government to run peoples lives because you are satisfied with less so you think everyone else should want less. What about people who want more? What about people who love hard work and innovative thinking? What you think are necessities in life might not be what someone else thinks.

“They are less likely to commit crimes.”

Well I think outlawing all drugs and alcohol would take care of that. Domestic violence, DUI’s etc. No drinking period…outlaw it. Freedom?????

You want everyone to live at ONE ECONOMIC LEVEL AND THAT WILL NOT WORK because some people are just more motivated and smarter than others. Sorry it’s the truth.

I am not saying you are stupid…but we would not be here today with technology, etc…if we lived like you want in your perfect world.

If you want someone then go get it. If you don’t then sit at home and live with what you want. But do not stop someone who wants more. And do not make him give you things you think you are owed and simply do not want to work for.

Isobel - posted on 07/26/2010

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I believe that white collar criminals should be stripped of the money that they make off of exploiting both people and the planet (the same way that regular criminals are not allowed to "live off the avails"...that money alone could sustain half the planet.

Jenny - posted on 07/26/2010

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Jenny said, “Money is a divider, not an equalizer. We currently have enough resources on our planet to give every single person on it what they require in life. We need a good kick in the ass from the universe to realize what is important is survival of our species, not who gets the shiniest things.”



Diane: For some people it is. But what about freedom, don’t you believe in freedom? How can there be freedom if you force people to give what they do not want to give, what they have fairly acquired. People should self sacrifice in order to help their fellow man…but not be forced to do it. We should love people enough to want to do it because we have kind and giving hearts. When I see someone in need I help them. I do it because I love helping people. I give quite a bit of my paycheck away to charities. World vision is one of my favorite. I am blessed to be able to do this. But I do it because I want to…not because I have to do it.



Me: I do not believe freedom is found in money. To get money you have contribute to the system and follow the rules of those who have more money than you. Or you have to break man made laws and find other ways to generate income. In some cases, both parents have to work and their kids are raised in daycares or they would be on the street. That’s not freedom to me. Freedom to me is being able to contribute to society in the way I’m best suited, not what makes the most or what schooling I was able to afford. Freedom to me means being able to set foot on any part of the planet I see fit. It means not being forced into economic slavery just to feed my family.



People are no longer capable of self sacrificing for the greater good. We have been brainwashed to believe we need to continue consuming to feed the system. And we have to because most goods these days are manufactured with planned obsolesance in mind. You can’t buy one Ipod for life. You have to buy a new one every 3-4 years. We have been brainwashed to believe in every man for themselves too. No food? Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and go buy some. No house? Tough luck, all these empty foreclosed one are for the bank, go live in your van.



If the average American family purchased nothing but a home, a basic vehicle, food, clothes and basic furnishings the economy would collapse. That’s where credit comes in. Now you can buy with money you don’t have and may never have. Not enough money exists to pay off the debts of the people so defaults are built into the system to correct it.



There is no possible way for a family to live completely off the grid. You can not find your own land, build a house with your own sweat, hunt and grow your own food etc. You are not allowed, you must be a consumer or you go to jail. Is that your version of freedom?



I believe if every man, woman and child has the necessities in life all of society is better off. They are less likely to commit crimes. They will be happier. They will WANT to contribute to society in the ways that they can. Then it’s freedom for everyone and not just those who can afford it.

LaCi - posted on 07/26/2010

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As for the doctor salary, the average emergency medicine doctor pulls 200k per year. I DO think the average factory worker should make significant amount more, and I think anyone who has ever worked in a factory would agree. 40k per year minimum would be an acceptable factory wage. But in our society, the less you break your back the more money you make. Anyway, a doctor's salary and the salaries of the obscenely rich CEOs aren't even comparable. I think I said before, I'm not concerned with the poorest of the rich, I'm concerned with people having ridiculous amounts of money while other people are starving, can't afford a roof over their heads, etc. I absolutely believe in people having the opportunity to make money, and even be wealthy. I don't believe in someone making 100k per day, in any job.

ME - posted on 07/26/2010

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should a factory worker on the line make as much as a doctor in an emergency room? - Diane

I won't speak for the other ladies...but it is neither factory workers nor doctors that I am speaking about. I am talking about the CEO's and CFO's and other "officers" of multi-national corporations who make more money in a quarter than my husband and I will make in a life-time; who use their positions to exploit people with no money and no power, who lay people off in order to make sure they still get a multimillion dollar bonus, and who seem to me to be unable to answer simple questions of right and wrong. These people DO NOT need the protections of our government, WE need to be protected from them because THEY are destroying our economy and our middle class, and the government is helping them do it by deregulating and providing them with tax loopholes or government subsidies. If they would simply play fair (like we all learned to do in preschool) then government regulations wouldn't be necessary.

IMO, we need to demand an end to interest group politics in this country. I'm SO sick of hearing how much money lobbyists for big business have given to our politicians...THAT is the real tragedy, and our founding fathers WOULD agree with that. Several of them warned against this type of backdoor politics, and it seems they were right. This is what will destroy our democracy...
...Sorry for the rant...

Krista - posted on 07/26/2010

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When I see someone in need I help them. I do it because I love helping people. I give quite a bit of my paycheck away to charities. World vision is one of my favorite. I am blessed to be able to do this. But I do it because I want to…not because I have to do it.

And that is wonderful that you do that, Diane.

But does that mean that other charities are less worthy? This is a point that I've brought up before. Some charities (kids, cute animals) are just naturally more appealing than others. So they tend to get the lion's share of private donations.

Because of this, they are able to do more advertising and get their name out there more. So this leads to even more people deciding to give to that charity, instead of some other charity that perhaps cannot afford to advertise.

I still believe strongly that if charity were left SOLELY to the public domain, there would be a lot of worthy causes that would suffer mightily -- because they're not as telegenic. You saw all of the private money that was given to Haiti, right? Not that Haiti isn't worthy, because it is, but who's giving to Darfur? Hell, who's giving to schools for inner-city youth?

You're fond of the word "fair". If charities had to rely solely on private donations, you'd see a system that would be UNfair in the extreme. It would come down to a popularity contest, basically. And if we're talking about peoples' lives, then leaving it up to a popularity contest is nothing short of obscene.

Diane - posted on 07/25/2010

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“It's really no wonder that the republican chant is Drill Baby Drill ugh.”

No honey that is Obamas chant as of late. He helps free a Lockerbie bomber to allow him to go home to die of prostrate cancer….all because he WANTS TO DRILL OFF THE SHORES OF LIBYA.

“Shortly after al-Megrahi’s release, Libya agreed to let BP drill off its shores, a deal estimated to be worth nearly $1 billion.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/071...

CONNECT THE DOTS……
“BP and its employees have given more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Donations come from a mix of employees and the company’s political action committees — $2.89 million flowed to campaigns from BP-related PACs and about $638,000 came from individuals.

On top of that, the oil giant has spent millions each year on lobbying — including $15.9 million last year alone — as it has tried to influence energy policy.

During his time in the Senate and while running for president, Obama received a total of $77,051 from the oil giant and is the top recipient of BP PAC and individual money over the past 20 years, according to financial disclosure records.”

http://cryptogon.com/?p=15204
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/06/06/f...

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/...

He said…. “I think all of us here were surprised, disappointed and angry about the release of the Lockerbie bomber,’ he said.
HE SET THE DARN THING UP FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. And the why is obvious. Drill baby drill. And the guy who they released…….is still alive doing great from terminal cancer. Of course I am sure you all would say it was a good compassionate thing to do right?

http://patterico.com/2010/07/25/obama-pr...

So do not say anything about anyone taking bribes and money under the table….look at Obama.

Laci you are obviously great at diggin up crap on people and companies…work on this Obama, BP, drilling, terrorist release thing. LOL

Kathy said, “Diane, you call yourself a Christian, but your posts are so filled with hate that I cannot believe it any more. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another to be hateful.”

Well you do not know me Kathy and I am criticized for being closed minded-hateful…and women say here that I judge. Judging most will say is wrong, that we have no right to judge others. When I do it I get blasted for it…when humanists do it, it’s acceptable. I am judged here as well and you just did it to me. I am not perfect and I have never pretended to be. I put my views out there and am bombarded by people who make fun of my faith…that old spaghetti monster etc etc. and knowledge about everything.

I believe in freedom period. I believe that it is from the goodness of ones heart that you help people. I do not believe that people should be forced. Christ does not force anyone to do anything. It is a religion that allows people to either accept or reject Christ. But one thing that it does command its adherents to do and that is to defend the faith, and I do that against women here who do nothing but make fun of people who do believe. I post something about religion, it’s wrong. I post something about politics, the border, the president, it’s wrong, its propaganda. This is a clash of worldviews…and ones acceptance or rejection of God colors everything about them. You are wrong I do not hate anyone here. I talk to women all the time that say gee Diane how can you stay there and defend yourself and ideals against women who think like they do? Why do you think there are so few women here who oppose views that are prevalent on here? This is basically a Democratic…liberal…..humanistic community. There are less than a handful of women who have opposite views than this.

“ Incidentally, how am I to sell my computer on e-bay to someone who doesn't have a computer and therefore will not see my ad?’

A lot of people buy computers online for people who do not have computers. I know a church that bought computers and gave them to families who had none.

“What are your noble deeds? besides praying outside abortion clinics of course. When I have a spare dime to give to charity, you can get back to me about what I have to give to charity. Otherwise, spare me the lecture on the charitable contributions.”


I support two children from Ethiopia and I donate time at Pregnancy Centers and Right to Life and Silent No More. I go to colleges and universities, fairs, etc…and talk about life issues.
I also tithe to our church who are big on missions around the world particularly in the Middle East. We support fifteen families full time. And yes I could do a lot more, so could everyone….BUT we should not be forced to do it.

Diane - posted on 07/25/2010

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“Diane, this is one of the most insulting things you've said (and you've said a few!) What right have you got to make blanket comments about a philosophy you obviously know nothing about? Do you know anything about the socialist philosophy?”

Oh please. You are talking about a different kind of socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Socialism is SOCIAL CONTROL….GOVERMENT CONTROL THEY CONTROL THE ECONOMY. America was founded in capitalism.

“Friend, you cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. And what one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government can't give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody. And when half of the people get the idea they don't have to work because the other half's going to take care of them, and when the other half get the idea it does no good to work because somebody's going to get what I work for. That, dear friend, is about the end of any nation.” Dr. Adrian Rogers


“Socialists don't think we are owed your wealth - socialists believe they are all born with equal rights (note- born with equal rights, not born equal.). We all deserve a job, the right to live happily, the right to have equal access to health care, education, government services. These services can ONLY be provided through taxation. As I said, socialists don't feel we are owed all your wealth, but all citizens are owed equal rights.’

Sure they do. And as you see now we have FORCED health care, we are forced to pay for abortions, and endless social programs that we will be forced to pay for. Obama has diarrhea of the pocketbook and will not stop spending…he has to find the money somewhere and taxes will be raised and raised and raised.

I do not believe that just because someone is rich…they should be forced to give MORE than anyone else.

Jenny said, “Money is a divider, not an equalizer. We currently have enough resources on our planet to give every single person on it what they require in life. We need a good kick in the ass from the universe to realize what is important is survival of our species, not who gets the shiniest things.”

For some people it is. But what about freedom, don’t you believe in freedom? How can there be freedom if you force people to give what they do not want to give, what they have fairly acquired. People should self sacrifice in order to help their fellow man…but not be forced to do it. We should love people enough to want to do it because we have kind and giving hearts. When I see someone in need I help them. I do it because I love helping people. I give quite a bit of my paycheck away to charities. World vision is one of my favorite. I am blessed to be able to do this. But I do it because I want to…not because I have to do it.

Mary Elizabeth…it’s not that Paris and Tori can’t handle it…it’s that it is not fair. You are the people who can’t handle it. You want the wealth redistributed because you think everyone deserves what they have. You want to punish them for success. They should pay taxes. But they shouldn’t be raped because you don’t think they deserve it and they should pay more.
“They saved and were responsible with their money, my Dad believes it's his responsibility to take care of he and my mom for as long as they live...he's that kind of guy...but even as hard as they worked to save money, they will have a few hundred thousand dollars to "leave" as inheritance for their 4 children...This doesn't affect most people!”

So were my parents and we were blessed that they did give us some money before they died. A few hundred thousand is a lot of money for some people. Should the government double and triple tax it AGAIN and then force you to redistributed to people who have less than you?

“Do you, or do you not, believe that corporations should be required to pay taxes on their revenue?’

Absolutely yes. They should pay taxes.

“How fair is it that corporations have obscene amounts of money but some people (often the workers who made these corporations so wealthy) have so little they can barely get by?”
You know….if they do not like where they are working then they should leave or not work there to begin with. If you work at Hooters and don’t think the dress attire is right…then don’t work there. But don’t apply and expect to get hired if you weigh three hundred pounds. I grew up around Michigan. I knew a lot of people who worked at Ford and the big factories in Detroit. They never were hurting. Sure they did not drive Mercedes…but the Unions got them fair pay for the work. I mean tell me…should a factory worker on the line make as much as a doctor in an emergency room?

You know Laci you gave a lengthy list of Top Campaign Finance Recipients…all which you say are Republicans. You said nothing of the list of the richest politicians in the country that I posted…whom are mostly Democrats. Maybe they don’t need as much money because they have it all.

Isobel - posted on 07/25/2010

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You could also charge admission to every building...that way it pays for itself, no taxes necessary for that either...No taxes are really necessary if you REALLY want to get rid of them.

Isobel - posted on 07/25/2010

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ps, the free market and capitalism in general demands that you take your profit AFTER you have paid all your expenses...if you have a rough year, you make less money, you DON'T raise prices to make up for the difference because you "need" to hit a certain mark.

Isobel - posted on 07/25/2010

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There's absolutely NO need for roads to be paid for with taxes, make every road a toll road...you could subscribe to your city and pay depending on how often you use them...or you could pay with change every time you make a turn...seems logical. You could pay for the police department when you use them or better yet, get insurance that goes STRAIGHT to the cops, then you wouldn't have the bureaucratic red tape soaking up money unnecessarily.

I must admit, I don't understand why those things are paid for with taxes and not health care.

BUT...this thread is about taxing the super-duper rich,not health care...I will resist my urge to make it all about health care ;P

Laci's point about the corporations is entirely relevant because those corporations are all owned by super-duper wealthy people with hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars. THOSE PEOPLE became super rich by exploiting people and the planet, by skirting the law, and refusing to follow the laws of the free market...that's kinda the only way to become a billionaire.

True capitalism would have no room for 5% of the population to own 95% of the wealth...Adam Smith's invisible hand of the free market assumes that it is in people's best interest to help other people...he forgot, in his calculations to include the douchiness of the human spirit.

People hoarding money was never part of the plan. The idea that companies (or the people who own them) would take billions in profit out while refusing to pay a fair wage (because the free market says that people should be able to choose the best paying job, but when companies all get together and decide how much labour is worth, there isn't much choice.

If you ladies insist on continuing to discuss the free market and capitalism...do some real research instead of just spouting the propaganda that your country throws at you.

True capitalism doesn't work for the same reason that true communism wouldn't...they don't take into account the nastiness and greed of certain human beings, and their willingness to step on and destroy whatever is necessary on the way up.

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Krista, I think Christa's list was inclusive, not exclusive - she did say "like..." Getting a bit petty!

Krista - posted on 07/25/2010

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Like infrastructure, national security, fire and police, things that a healthy society needs to remain civilized.

And you don't count healthcare among the things that a healthy society needs?

I guess I just don't understand the mindset that says that roads are just too gosh-darned important to be left to the variances of privatization, but your liver transplant or your baby's heart surgery? All hail the free market, bitches!

LaCi - posted on 07/25/2010

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"Let’s put it this way. You are on here all the time. I don’t know if you work but it must not be a lot of hours, or you are on the computer at work…I do not know. But THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE A COMPUTER. Why don’t you sell yours and give it to them. You owe it to them. What right do you have to be on it…when others cant. Go right to Ebay and sell…it. In that way you can help out all those people who don’t have what you do."



Actually if you want to get technical, this is my boyfriends computer, which I use for school so eventually I can graduate and save people's lives, I don't own anything, not a single thing is mine. Except my elephant statues, and I suppose you could consider my plants mine, since I grew them, although he purchased the seeds and helped keep them watered. What are your noble deeds? besides praying outside abortion clinics of course. When I have a spare dime to give to charity, you can get back to me about what I have to give to charity. Otherwise, spare me the lecture on the charitable contributions.

LaCi - posted on 07/25/2010

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The issue I was addressing was the claim that people got rich from hard work and their money shouldn't be taken away from them because they were witty enough to get rich. It's bullshit. That is nothing more than a list of ways to get rich. Profit at the expense of everything, employees, the environment, entire countries, and your own government. The CEOs make hundreds of millions of dollars every year, the workers make $8 an hour- IF they're lucky enough to be american. So yes, I will completely defend my point about the rich getting rich off the backs of the poor. But I will get back to you with the specific richest people, because these are the people that need to be taxed more. I don't care if someone is a millionaire. I care about that fact that people have obscene amounts of money, billions, hundreds of millions, and people are still homeless and starving, or barely able to get healthcare. You're friend who are almost millionaires? they may as well be middle class in comparison to the people that action needs to be taken against.

Christa - posted on 07/25/2010

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Ok so I'm going to ignore all the stuff about the corporations and try to answer some of the questions that were posed before things got a bit chaotic. :-)

Krista you asked about abolishing all taxes. . . I don't think any conservative has ever suggested that, at least not normal ones. :-P We will always need taxes but they should be limited to things that most people can not pay for themselves. Like infrastructure, national security, fire and police, things that a healthy society needs to remain civilized.

Ok I have a hungry daughter waking up now so I'll have to continue later I thought I had more time. . ..

Christa - posted on 07/25/2010

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This was about individuals, why are we talking about corporations? Maybe start a new thread. . . . .

Jenny - posted on 07/25/2010

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Thanks for the sharing Laci. I'll also add on IBM, they were the backbone of the holocaust. They went in through their German subsidiary and built the system for the Nazis. Without IBM it would have been highly impractical to kill those millions of Jews and run the network of concentration camps.

LaCi - posted on 07/25/2010

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What is that, 8 of 10 shitty companies, at varying degrees of shitty-ness? The majority of major corporations are doing enough lobbying that that money should be taken in taxes and the lobbying should be illegal. They can obviously afford it. In 25 days the CEO of a corporation makes what the average household would produce in a lifetime, while their products injure, disease, or kill the customer and the workers, besides working for peanuts, are being mistreated-denied pensions, denied fair pay, or even dying for a barely more than minimum wage job.





The other 10 of the top twenty were oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, and banks, mostly. Don't even get me started on cocacola. They actually murder their employees.





However, I do heart google, #20.





Banks make money simply by manipulating everyone else's money. Oil companies, if you find a good ethical oil company that hasn't somehow caused death or destruction, let me know. Pharmaceutical companies only do enough good to distract from the immense amount of bad.



I'll start on the forbes richest people list eventually.

LaCi - posted on 07/25/2010

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Heres #9: Wells fargo

"Baltimore Is Suing Bank Over Foreclosure Crisis Baltimore’s mayor and City Council are suing Wells Fargo Bank, contending that its lending practices discriminated against black borrowers and led to a wave of foreclosures that has reduced city tax revenues and increased its costs.
Wells Fargo Targeted over Charges of Predatory Lending Groups alleging that one of the nationメs wealthiest financial firms engages in discriminatory lending practices staged a picket at the companyメs headquarters yesterday. The groups are in a long-running campaign to force the firm to admit to and provide compensation for what critics term "predatory" lending. The protest at Wells Fargo's San Francisco offices garnered little media attention, but organizers considered it an important step toward wringing economic equity from the banking giant. Yesterday's demonstration was aimed at highlighting allegations that Wells Fargo routinely adds surprise charges to mortgages taken out by minorities, with many rates rising well above 10 percent. As of last week, the average mortgage rate in the nation's largest cities hovered around 6.5 percent, according to the Associated Press.
[edit] Investments

Wells Fargo is one of the largest single stockholders in the GEO Group The GEO group operates prison facilities in Australia, The UK, South Africa, the US and Guantanamo Bay and Cuba. The GEO Group has been criticized for Failing to Vet Guards, sexual abuse against immigrant detainees and other abuses. The Seattle University School of Law. 65-page report, "Voices From Detention," examined the treatment of detainees at the Northwest Detention Center in Tacoma operated by the GEO Group. They cited physical and physiological abuse. [1]"

and #10, johnson and johnson. Aside from making our lovely carcinogenic baby products:

Johnson and Johnson Medical, Inc. pays $9.3 million to resolve claims of overcharging VA for medical supplies Johnson and Johnson contract negotiators provided inaccurate pricing information to the Department of Veteran Affairs, resulting in a severe overcharge for medical supplies such as catheters.
Ortho Evra Contraceptive Patch Side Effects Include Blood Clots, Strokes and Heart Attacks "A consumer fraud class action lawsuit is currently being investigated against Ortho-McNeil Pharmaceutical, Inc., makers of the Ortho Evra birth control patch. This investigation concerns whether Ortho-McNeil (a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson) failed to disclose that the side effects and risks of blood clots, stroke or heart attacks are greater for women using the patch than for women using birth control pills."
US: The 100 Worst Corporate Citizens Johnson & Johnson, (number 12 on this list) have refused to sign the Compact for Safe Cosmetics, which calls for the elimination of harmful substances in cosmetic and personal care products. Harmful products distributed by Johnson & Johnson include medicated baby powder with trace amounts of lead [1] and as of June 2007, they continue to engage in testing on animals.[2]
Johnson & Johnson Settles Lawsuits Over Contact Lenses "Johnson & Johnson has agreed to pay as much as $860 million to settle lawsuits accusing the company of misleading consumers into prematurely throwing away disposable Acuvue contact lenses. The suits contended that the company drove up sales of its 1-Day Acuvue soft lenses by advising consumers to use them just once, even though the product is identical to regular Acuvue lenses, which may be worn as long as two weeks."



I'll stop at ten, since I'm monopolizing the page now.

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