Ever notice how the so-called "pro life" movement stops caring about the fetus the moment it becomes a baby?

[deleted account] ( 16 moms have responded )

What sickens me is that these (mostly white, and usually middle class or wealthier) people throw such fits of righteous indignation when a woman needs to make a tough choice, and terminate a pregnancy.

When a poor woman wants to terminate, they want to force her to keep the fetus to full gestation. However, when that poor woman gives birth, these "pro-lifers" are also the people who bitch and moan about "welfare moms" and children who are forced to accept state assistance (in one form or another) to help them barely make ends meet? THese are also usually children who get stuck in barely functioning, underfunded public school districts, so they never have a fair chance at getting a decent education, and scratching their way out of the pit of the poverty cycle.

It's such disgusting hypocrisy on the part of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than meddle in the lives of strangers, thereby increasing human suffering under poverty. Where's the ongoing follow-up support for the people they frighten or bully into not terminating a pregnancy? If they really want to encourage people to bring these children into the world, and scare them off at the clinic until they're past the point where they can terminate a pregnancy, they're morally obligated to remain engaged in helping these kids born into desperate situations. Where's the volunteer work for helping to better the lot of underpriveleged and at-risk kids? It's not there.

These people sicken me. It's all for show.

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[deleted account]

I'm to tired of fundamentalists spewing their dogma all over everyone. They are free to do as they believe, and so is everyone else. I don't care what the stripe: born-agains, orthodox Jews, Islamic fundamentalists...they're all extremists, and all have deep psychological needs to make themselves feel safe with their irrational beliefs, framed as "faith" in something irrational and inexplicable.

As Gabrielle so aptly pointed out, our country was founded by people who aspired to create a country with clear separation of church and state. Moreover, our Founders were clearly not Christians, they were Deists (so much for the claim that this country was founded by Christians.) I"m up for honoring the many tens of thousands of lives given for us to be able live in this country with an intentional separation of church and state.

If your beliefs in Jesus and the bible make you happy, bravo. Just don't take your interpretations and personal religious beliefs and impose them on anyone else. What anyone else does with a POTENTIAL life (something that anti-choice activists have twisted into the term "unborn child", which a fetus is not) is their own business.

As Gabrielle further said, of course we want to have education of our youth as to birth control, and we want to lower the incidences of unplanned pregnancies. But no one has the right to tell anyone else what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Get a hobby.

Gabrielle - posted on 04/06/2009

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Elizabeth, I just typed a long answer to you, and my new browser killed it. So here's the sum of it. I'm not white. My parents were certainly not middle class until long after college and careers. I would never say anyone should be aborted, only that, unlike Kristen, I believe everyone deserves to choose when and if to have children. So when they do, they will love their children and want to work hard for them. Love does make a big difference in people's lives and can make up for the lack of a lot of tangibles. (Certainly it's been demonstrated that the reverse is untrue.) No one here is dismissive of those who may have had less during their lives. What I would be upset about is that someone would tell me that we all should be forced to make life decisions that could force us into lives with less, when we would prefer to make other options. Poverty isn't a disease or anything to be looked down on, anymore than earned priviledge is. To me, it's all about choice. Choose your life, and you will be happy. So, I just want the right to choose.

Kristen - posted on 04/01/2009

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I am pro-life 100%...I also agree that we should all help children born into desperate situations..So don't stereotype pro-lifers as hypocrits..I'm not wealthy..I'm a 21 year old single mom..My daughter has medicaid and had wic...I was taught safe sex and condems in school..So what? Everything that happens to us in life is a result from the decisions we make....What gives anyone the right to strip another human being of not only their rights but the chance to even have a life? "Thou shalt not kill'...the last time I checked this commandment didn't have any exceptions to it..I don't believe in abortion for any reason....No matter what God is the only one who should make that decision.. Please look at this... http://www.abortiontruth.com/index.html 

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Bobbi-Jo - posted on 03/22/2010

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To me its the womans choice.. the only way I think abortion is wrong is when it is used as a form of birth control

Stasia - posted on 04/06/2009

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Thankyou Tara and Gabrielle for your comments. I was not intending to rant or bash anyone I just felt that to categorize young mothers this way was unfair and unproductive. I have had all sorts of comments from people I did not know (at grocery stores, doctor's offices etc.) where people would make comments like "oh, you are in school, are you upgrading?" or "wow it must be hard to be a single mother" when in fact I am neither. But I do understand what you are saying, statistically I guess you are correct.

[deleted account]

You know what bothers me, when mostly white middle class pro-choice people talk about the poor people they never were! How arrogant of you to talk about poverty as if it were a disease that somehow makes us less of a person than you "priviliged" people. I was raised poor (in the 80's) in a house that was literally falling apart around us, with no drinkable water. I had to fill up water bottles at an artesian well spout underneath a neighbor's porch and carry them back 1/4 mile to our house once a week. My room had a porch off of it that I couldn't step onto because it was falling apart, the ceiling was coming down in pieces, the list could go on. But my single father worked overtime to keep his family together and happy. (no gov't handouts) Yes, I said happy and we were! Not ignorant and happy, my father was educated, but truly happy in each other, our hard work, and LOVE. But, by your standards my siblings and I should have been aborted! I put myself through college, (no handouts, just work) and acquired a degree in just the field I wanted. As an adult, I choose to stay home with my children and live on the single income my husband earns, which is barely at the poverty level, and here's the kicker, I continue to have children. I don't even use the public schools my taxes pay for, I homechool, still, never relying on the gov't or anyone else. There are legitimate reasons some women consider abortion, but it is never the answer, it only perpetuates this cold. hard "culture of death". Children are the greatest blessings for this ailing world that suffers not from too many people, but from too little LOVE!

Gabrielle - posted on 04/03/2009

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Tara, thanks, I think you made my points pretty well.. I actually typed up a huge long reply, and then CoM told me I wasn't logged in any more and lost it. So, I will sum up by saying, Stasia, I apologize if you felt offended. I have nothing against young mothers - I didn't like how Kristen was pushing her beliefs on us. I deliberately chose not to be a young, unwed mother because I didn't want to find myself where Kristen is now, needing public assistance to raise her child, no sign of a man around, hard life. I finished college, started my career, met a man and got married, and then had my child, because that fits into my life of choice. There are lots of roads to happiness and I'm very glad you found yours. I also believe in out-spoken women, so thank you for speaking up.

Tara - posted on 04/03/2009

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Stasia,
Not that Gabrielle needs me to fight her battles for her, but I'd like to defend her comments if I may. I don't believe that Gabrielle was making a blanket statement of ALL young mothers. I think she is more open-minded than that. She was simply stating a fact that young mothers tend to live below the poverty line and that many of them aren't able to or interested in finishing their educations. My own mother was 22 when I was born (of course, it was war time -- 1968 -- and things were somewhat different then), but she and my father were poor and they raised my sister and me well.

Just based on your post, you sound educated (not that education is the be all and end all, but let's face it -- people who finish a degree DO tend to make more money than their h.s. graduate counterparts).

The point we are trying to make here is that abortion IS a choice in this country and if a woman chooses to abort, that is her right. It is also a woman's right to choose to give birth and parent her child. This is a pro-choice board and though all comments are welcome, bashing each other is in poor taste. I wouldn't go on a pro-NRA board to say that I believe in gun control and I resent the rants on here from pro-life women who think that their way is the ONLY way.

Thanks for your comments. Aloha,
Tara

Stasia - posted on 04/03/2009

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Gabrielle,
I am upset by your prejudice of young mothers.

"This is a pro-choice group. I assume you came here believing you could "convert" us all to your beliefs. But all you've done is tell us that we, the taxpayers, are paying for your daughter since you couldn't make a good decision to not have sex/get pregnant. And by being a single mom at 21, you've now affected your chances at a further education and good job, you will likely stay at or near poverty level unless you can marry a well-off man (which will be hard to do with a child), and your daughter will likely continue the cycle of getting pregnant young since that's what you've shown her is normal. I hope you do a better job of explaning the facts of life to her than was done with you, so she can have a better chance when she's 21."

I am also a young mother. In fact, I am also 21.My daughter has been the best thing I have ever done. She is happy, healthy and hands down the most precious thing in my life. I do not live at or near the poverty line and I am not ill educated. True, I have not finished all of my schooling yet (I am still working towards a degree in human service work) but I am working hard to continue and give us everything she could need. My fiance is not rich, and neither of us were born into money but despite this we own a modest home and work to make it beautiful, but most importantly full of love.
My daughter may wear second hand clothes and cloth diapers, but I am proud of that fact- not ashamed. My daughter may not have the high tech "baby einstein" toys or heaps of flashy plastic junk on her floor but I am young enough to have the energy to show her the world, and young enough so that when she is a teenager I will better remember being in those shoes.
If at 21 my daughter becomes a young mother I will not chalk it up to her having a "bad chance at life," or, "not knowing the facts of life."
I will respect her decision and be happy for her choosing a life that i have so far found to be rewarding, beautiful, and most of all, full of love. Isn't that what we all search for anyway?

I hope that you will be more open minded next time you are judging a mother based on age.

Gabrielle - posted on 04/02/2009

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Kristen, don't worry about me. I'm pretty sure I would never qualify for your limited Heaven, since in addition to being pro-choice, I am also a feminist, pro-gay rights, a liberal, a Democrat, an agnostic, a believer in evolution, and a bunch of other things that you would say are wrong. All those people who are adopting kids had better step up since there are thousands of unwanted, unhappy kids in foster care and adoption agencies. How many are you going to take? "Father's crime"? What the heck are you talking about? It's not a crime to have sex or get pregnant. We aren't in the Middle Ages (at least, I'm not). I can't believe that you think that if a woman is in danger of losing her life if she stays pregnant then you just want her to pray or something - not get medical care, not think about protecting her life and her ability to have more children. If your family members ever gets sick, please take them to a doctor! If you want to live in a country ruled by a religion, please move to Afghanistan or Iraq. They don't believe in abortion, either - but they might set a living baby girl out to die of exposure. Let me know how well that works out for you. Our country was founded on people escaping religious persecution, and we respect all beliefs today, including the right to not have a religion, and not be ruled by one.



Tara, thanks for your comments. I hate people who preach at me, try to convert me, tell me my own beliefs aren't good enough. Quite insulting. Right-wing religious nuts drive me crazy, too. I wonder if there's a way to block someone from a group...

Tara - posted on 04/02/2009

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Kristen,
I AM a Christian and my sins have been forgiven. It isn't up to you to judge me OR to forgive me...that's up to God. You may think you know what He is thinking, but you're no different from anyone else on Earth. None of us has met Him yet -- not in this life, anyway -- and to say that you know what He thinks is blasphemy.

As for hoping that Gabrielle "changes her opinion about Jesus," do you really believe that non-Christians won't go to Heaven? Jews are God's Chosen People...or don't you read your Bible? You right-wing religious nuts drive me crazy. YOU are the one I want to see in Heaven, because only then will you know what Jesus really meant when he said "love thy neighbor." You don't have a clue.

Gabrielle - posted on 04/02/2009

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I love how you're trying to tell me that your English version of a Greek and Latin translation of the original Hebrew and Aramaic text is the correct one. Your "exact text" has been translated so many times, no English Bible is possibly 100% true to the original. There certainly are Christians and Jews who believe in permitting abortion at certain times (ask my rabbi and my Christian husband). You can say whatever you want about Jesus, but I'm not Christian, so it means nothing to me. I'm very thankful for our secular country with its secular laws that allow me to be a non-Christian and not have to live by your or anyone else's interpretation of your beliefs.



I believe in allowing abortion because I believe all babies should be wanted. I believe women should have a choice about when to have their children and about their own medical care. I believe victims of rape and incest shouldn't be forced to bear their attackers' child. I believe unborn babies have rights, but that the rights of the mother come first. I believe in laws protecting both the mother and the fetus so abortion is not abused. I believe that religion has no place in the government and laws, as a protection against people being forced to obey someone else's faith.



I'm sorry you felt I attacked your daughter - I have nothing personal against her. But it's the truth that single mothers are most likely to live below the poverty level. It's the truth that it's hard for single mothers to find a mate. It's the truth that children follow the pattern of their parents' behavior. That's all I was saying. I'm glad you made the choice that was right for you. All I'm saying is that it should be a choice, for you to make based on your beliefs, and not something forced on you. And if you had been able to wait to have her until you were older, married, had a good career, etc, then life would have been easier for both you and her.



Regardless, we won't convince each other. So, be well, take care, best of luck to you and your daughter.

Kristen - posted on 04/02/2009

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Quoting Gabrielle:

Sorry, but the original text in the Torah actually says, Thou shalt not murder, specifically because there were exceptions when it was ok to kill. And the original believers in the Judeo-Christian G-d also believed in abortion, because they believed the mother's life came first. Besides, your religious beliefs should only affect your choices, not mine. We live in a secular country, with secular laws based on logic, not faith.

This is a pro-choice group. I assume you came here believing you could "convert" us all to your beliefs. But all you've done is tell us that we, the taxpayers, are paying for your daughter since you couldn't make a good decision to not have sex/get pregnant. And by being a single mom at 21, you've now affected your chances at a further education and good job, you will likely stay at or near poverty level unless you can marry a well-off man (which will be hard to do with a child), and your daughter will likely continue the cycle of getting pregnant young since that's what you've shown her is normal. I hope you do a better job of explaning the facts of life to her than was done with you, so she can have a better chance when she's 21.



Hypocrisy at it's best I see...Isn't this a conversation about how we should take care of children after their born? I am a tax payer as well..Do I not deserve to reap the benefits of my labor? And I'm sorry but in The Old Testament of The Holy Bible in the book of Exodus Ch. 20 verse13 the exact text says "Thou shalt not kill". I hope that you can inform me where you came up with Judeo-Christians believing in abortion..that is simply not true...No Christian believes in abortion..No life should be held above anothers. The fact that we do live in a secular country with secular laws is the main reason why this country is heading in the direction that it is..Jesus died on the cross for our sins and we've turned our back on him..so much so that we think it's ok to take the lives of unborn babies...religious beliefs aside...these are our children! Why do you think that they don't deserve the chance to live? You can attack me if you want but there's no need to bring my child into this..I guess that's all you can do though because you have no argument..It's not ok to murder..BOTTOM LINE! My daughter is the best thing that has ever happened to me..She's the light of my life...No matter how hard I have to work to take care of her and myself that will never change. And I will explain the facts of life to her..I will explain to her that every being deserves a chance to have a life..That sex results in pregnancy and that if she chooses to have sex and she gets pregnant that that child is her responsibility. That I love her and I chose life thus the reason why she'll even be around to make many choices every day for herself...

Gabrielle - posted on 04/02/2009

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Sorry, but the original text in the Torah actually says, Thou shalt not murder, specifically because there were exceptions when it was ok to kill. And the original believers in the Judeo-Christian G-d also believed in abortion, because they believed the mother's life came first. Besides, your religious beliefs should only affect your choices, not mine. We live in a secular country, with secular laws based on logic, not faith.



This is a pro-choice group. I assume you came here believing you could "convert" us all to your beliefs. But all you've done is tell us that we, the taxpayers, are paying for your daughter since you couldn't make a good decision to not have sex/get pregnant. And by being a single mom at 21, you've now affected your chances at a further education and good job, you will likely stay at or near poverty level unless you can marry a well-off man (which will be hard to do with a child), and your daughter will likely continue the cycle of getting pregnant young since that's what you've shown her is normal. I hope you do a better job of explaning the facts of life to her than was done with you, so she can have a better chance when she's 21.

Gabrielle - posted on 04/01/2009

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I gotta say, I agree. If you're going to force people to bear children, then you need to accept some responsibility for those kids.



What also gets me is that the "pro-life" people are totally against condoms and teaching about safe sex. If you want to cut down on abortions (which, let's face it, we all do, even if we still want to have the right if we need it), then let's cut down on the unintended pregnancies. And the best way to do that is to teach people about safe sex and birth control. But no, they just want abstinence-only and ignorance. I remember kids in my high school who thought the weirdest crap would prevent pregnancy. And at least 2 ended up pregnant. Hypocrisy in action.

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