immunizations

Ally - posted on 04/09/2009

corrine,

just because someone chooses to not vaccinate or selectively vaccinate does not mean they are playing games with their childs health! there are many educated professionals (myself included-i am a registered nurse) who strongly believes there are not enough studies being done and that we are way over vaccinating our kids. there is a reason why vaccines such as DPT and OPV are no longer on the market bc after many years of parents being told these are perfectly safe they came to realize that they were doing more harm than good. and with the whole mercury/thimerisol thing..if you truly belive that it was removed as a preservative just to make consumers happy without any proof that it caused damage you are being incredibly naive.



as for your statistics how about the one that is undisputed that there is now 1 autistic kid in every 150 and before mandatory vaccinations began that number was about 1 in 10,000..so although im not saying i believe all the hype it is really not prudent to discount that fact.



also vaccines (at least most of them) require boosters to keep you and vulnerable populations protected and very few people actually get them when needed compared to natural immunity provided from infection from diseases like chicken pox or rubella that are childhood illnesses meant to be had and usually quite harmless in most children.



then when those vaccines wear off..usually after about ten years you have an adolescent or young adult livivng in close quarters with others such as in college and they are the least likely to keep up with booster shots. now you have set up a perfect opportunity for an outbreak of something like chickenpox when it could be much more deadly.



i have done lots of independent research , read the medical jornals cover to cover reviewed clinical trials and studies and still chose to selectively vaccinate. so just because someone does something that isnt what you would have chosen for their own family doesn't mean their choice is any less safe or appropriate for their family.

Kerri - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Sian:

Hi Kay, as other moms have said - do your research, theres plenty of info out there but you have to dig around for it a bit.
There is a 21 year age gap between my oldest and youngest children. In those 2 decades the number of vaccinations has doubled - yet the overall health of our children has not improved. Some of my children had some vaccinations, my youngest had only one. I can say that in my familys case, the children that had the fewest jabs are the healthiest. Im only sorry my son had even one jab. The unvaccinated kids I know are robustly healthy and I feel I shouldve put more trust in what nature gave my kids to fight infection.
The benefits of extended breastfeeding (over a year) are well documented, research in Sweden found that every extra week of Bfeeding caused a 5% reduction in the likelihood of your child catching Hib, so ignore the person who said it had no benefit after 6 months!
vacinfo.org and insidevaccines.com are two sites that helped me make the right choices for my little boy.
After the one DTaP shot which made him desperately ill, he has not had another. He is now 20 months old and has not seen a doctor since that awful day. It took months for him to get over the jab and become the happy contented baby he had been before.
Having said that, youre going to find lots of moms who are all in favour of vaccines ..which is why youre going to have to do your own research! Good luck and best wishes.

This is a forum to give your opinion, not to force yours on others.  How could you tell someone not to listen to another opinion just because you don't agree?  The fact is that it is a personal choice.  Just because you have cosen not to vaccinate for all diseases and your children are healthy, does not mean it will be the same for others.  I have chosen to get ALL recommended vaccines and my children are also extremely healthy.  The difference is that my children are also protected from diseases like measles, polio, and rubella (to name a few).  The people who chose not to vaccinate are now putting others at a higher risk of being exposed to these diseases.  This is why children are not allowed in schools or public daycare without proper vaccines.  The risk of contracting these diseases is MUCH MUCH higher if you have not been immunized. 

Kerri - posted on 04/09/2009

Quoting Katie:

Quoting Kerri:

I agree, do your research. One thing I can tell you is that a breastfed baby is only protected by his mothers immune system for the first 6 months. After that, they have gotten all the immunities they can. The statistics show a very small number of children getting sick from immunizations and there is no proof that there wasn't already another underlying cause. all three of my children have been vaccinated and they all are very healthy.

I would like to find out where you got that information: that they are only protected by their mother's immune system for the first 6 months.

The reason I am questioning that is that a couple of weeks ago my 7.5 month old baby (born premature, 2 months early) was exposed to RSV and never contracted it. This disease is horrible on preemies because of their underdeveloped lungs. We are supposed to be getting antibody shots of Synergis but have no insurance to get them. The only reason I think he didn't contract it was because I breastfeed him, but if this statement is correct then that's not the case.

My ex husband and I were both active duty Air Force and worked in the hospital.  That is what we were taught.  Maybe I should explain better.  They continue to get the antibodies for 6 months, after that, they still carry the antibodies with them but they don't continue to get additional antibodies after that. I also believe that because you breastfed, that is why your son didn't contract the full virus.  He still has all the antibodies from you in his system now.  Also, My husband worked in the NICU as a respiratory Therapist.  He cared for many children with RSV.  You are right, it is a very serious and scary disease.  I'm so glad your son is fine.  I will admit that I have not done any further research on this since separating from the military so I don't know if there are new findings but to be safe, I breastfed my children until they were nearly a year old and I did vaccinate as well.  If any of my children had been premature I probably also would have spaced out the vaccines and talked to my doctor about omiting some of them altogether.  As far as not having insurance, is there a program in your area to help with this?  I think it's really sad the way our government can't (or won't) help children who need things like this.  Have you looked into CHIP insurance for your son?  I wish you and your family all the best and I hope your son continues to thrive.  They are such a blessing.

Karen - posted on 04/09/2009

I agree with Emily C that you should do your research beyond this site.  I'm not familiar with the book she recommended, but I found The Vaccine Book by Dr. Robert W. Sears to be helpful.  My son inherited his father's sensitive immune system, and reacts to foreign invaders (including vaccinations) with a high fever (though his reaction isn't strong enough to get a medical waiver).  I researched and developed an individualized plan that includes some (not all) of the CDC recommended vaccinations, though only one at a time, in one month intervals.  I've had to fight with my son's pediatrition about it because we live in a state that does not allow philosophical exemptions to vaccinations, and the price we pay is that he won't be allowed in licensed day care facilities (we're able to keep him home all day) or public school (we planned on homeschooling anyway, but we wouldn't make that choice based on the vaccination requirements--there's too much involved).

What it came down to for us was risk vs. reward: did the risks of receiving the vaccination itself outweigh the rewards of being vaccinated against a given illness?  It's a lot of work, but research each vaccine as well as the disease it guards against, and decide what seems best for your baby.  Also check the laws in the state you live in (assuming you're in the US--I realize this site is international) and see what the consequences will be for not following the CDC recommendations exactly.  Ultimately it's your choice.

Good luck!

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Thank you Emily for your suggestion on that book. I just checked it out on amazon and it look like just the kind of info I have been looking for. Good lookin' out :)

JOAN - posted on 04/18/2009

I immunized my first 3 children and thank God they are doing just fine but when I had my fourth child I went through the first round of shots and was hearing more and more about the autism rate going up and the suspected culprit was the mercury used as a preservative and I started to question what I was doing. I started researching and found that the autism rate had gone up in 1992 from 15,000 to 300,000 in 2007! Totally unacceptable odds for me. And these are statistics that can be found on this following website. http://www.fightingautism.org/idea/autis... all these are statistics of Immunized children. Autism in non immunized children is about 224% higher and this info can be found http://www.associatedcontent.com/article... just a little bit of information I thought you might like to see before you do something potentially life altering.

Trudy - posted on 04/17/2009

Melissa - The vaccine schedule is very different than when we were growing up. While I cannot state the actual differences in ingredients (because I don't have access to that info) I can say that in order to maintain an exclusive hold on the market the vaccine companies need to change up the ingredients every so many years (don't know how many off the top of my head) to hold the patent on that particular vax. So we have to take that into consideration... that the ingredients are different now than they were when we were growing up and could be worse though that is obviously speculation on my part without being able to compare.



I don't know when or what you got vaxed for but here is the Canadian schedule and the shots that I had (I was also hospitalized for WC for 3 months at about 3 years old despite being vaxed):



http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pageren...



and here is the Canadian schedule now:



http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/is-cv/inde...



The number of vaccines by the time a child hits a year has more than doubled. Thus we have more than doubled the number of toxins, chemicals, heavy metals that our children are receiving. I think it is very ironic that we are cautioned so much about hand washing, etc. before leaving the hospital with our newborns... in order to avoid colds, flus, etc., because their immune systems are so immature but it's okay to innoculate them that much? It just doesn't sit well with me.



I totally understand you not wanting to take the chance that your child gets a disease you may have prevented with a vaccine. Conversely, that is exactly why I don't vaccinate my child. I believe that based on what I have researched it would be rare for my child to die from a VPD.. that she is more likely to suffer some form of damage (in the short term or long term) from vaccines. Really, two people can look at the same information and come to different conclusions or have different reactions.



You see when I look at the CDC stat that there is one death per year from mumps, that doesn't really scare me because I think what are the odds of my well nourished child dying from mumps? Not high, imo. But, when I look at those ingredients and then read the package insert that NO studies have been done on whether they cause cancer (when many of the ingredients are known to be or suspected of being cancer causing agents), then I have a tough time justifying that risk for my child. Of course, I respect that you may feel the opposite - and likely do if vaxing.



(I should correct a statement I made above saying "the worst you get with mumps.. when I should have said *most often* the worst you get.. ;o))



But, as to my above post I also wanted to point out that there are mumps outbreaks occuring in vaccinated individuals and if you look at the above study it isn't because of unvaccinated children - they are questioning the efficiacy of the vaccine. That's another reason I don't vaccinate.. more and more it is becoming apparent that these vaccines aren't as effective as we believe and if that's the case why take the risk of injecting my child with all that scary stuff? So, I just wanted to clarify that for me it's about more than being afraid of the ingredients - though they are scary!

Melissa - posted on 04/17/2009

I get the fact that people are scared of the ingrediants, but I could never take that chance, that maybe my child could be the one that does get a serious complication from a disease, that could be prevented. Also are people thinking to the future that most schools and daycares will require the vaccines anyway. Most of us were vaccinated and we are fine. Also correction to my previous statement it was 5 students not 10.

Trudy - posted on 04/17/2009

Melissa - Mumps aren't life threatening. Sure if someone is already immunocompromised - but that can be said of the flu, too. The worst you get with mumps is being isolated for approximately 10 days.



Symptoms (from the Pink Book)



Parotitis (aka "chipmunk cheeks") occurs in about 30-40% of cases, usually occurs within the first 2 days of symptoms.



20% of all cases show no symptoms and about 40-50% may seem like an ordinary cold.



Complications (from the Pink Book)



Viral meningitis with no symptoms or complications occurs in about 50-60% of cases (more common in adults than children)



Viral meningitis with symptoms (stiff neck, headache) occurs in about 15% of cases and resolves itself within 3-10 days (more common in adults than child).



Orchitis (testicular swelling, nausea, vomitting) occurs about 50% of the time, but ONLY occurs in post-pubescent males and usually subsides within a week. Typically its just one testicle that is affected, but in about 30% of orchitis cases it can effect both testicles. Sterility is very rare, and typically only occurs in one testicle.



Oophoritis (ovarian swelling) occurs in about 5% of post-pubescent females. It may cause some pain or discomfort, but doesn't affect fertility.



Pancreatitis is rare, occuring in about 2-5% of cases.



Deafness is very rare, occuring in about 1 in 20,000 cases, and rarely affects both ears.



Death is extremely rare - average of one per year.





Mumps is rarely harmful in childhood, lasts about ten days and confers life-long immunity. There are questions about whether or not the vaccine confers life-long immunity though (see study below). As such, there are concerns about adults suffering more serious consequences due to waning vaccine induced immunity as an adult.





Outbreak of Mumps in Highly Vaccinated Population:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18612...



----------------------------------------------------------------



Mumps Outbreaks in Vaccinated Populations: Are Available Mumps Vaccines Effective Enough to Prevent Outbreaks?

Gustavo H. Dayan1 and

Steven Rubin2



1Clinical Department, Sanofi Pasteur, Swiftwater, Pennsylvania, and 2Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, US Food and Drug Administration, Bethesda, Maryland



Increased reports of mumps in vaccinated populations prompted a review of the performance of mumps vaccines. The effectiveness of prior vaccination with 1 dose of vaccine ranged from 72.8% to 91% for the Jeryl Lynn strain, from 54.4% to 93% for the Urabe strain, and from 0% to 33% for the Rubini strain. Vaccine effectiveness after 2 doses of mumps vaccine was reported in 3 outbreaks and ranged from 91% to 94.6%. ****There was evidence of waning immunity, which is a likely factor in mumps outbreaks, aggravated by possible antigenic differences between the vaccine strain and outbreak strains.***** Inadequate vaccine coverage or use of the Rubini vaccine strain accounted for the majority of outbreaks reviewed; however, some outbreaks could not be prevented, despite high vaccination coverage with 2 doses of the Jeryl Lynn vaccine strain. *****Our findings indicate the need for more-effective mumps vaccines***** and/or for review of current vaccination policies to prevent future outbreaks.





Per the CDC -



"With the decrease in mumps incidence in the United States, health-care providers have become less likely to suspect mumps in patients with parotitis. In addition, given the low prevalence of mumps in the U.S. population, laboratory confirmation should be encouraged to diagnose mumps accurately.5-6

"



So, this tells you that there are cases that are not being reported because of our misplaced faith in vaccines.









Bovine Albumin or Serum (blood)

Chick Embryo Fibroblasts

Gelatin

Glutamate

Human Albumin

Neomycin

Phosphate

Sodium Phosphate

Sorbitol Sucrose

Potassium Phosphate Monobasic

Potassium Chloride

Potassium Phosphate Dibasic

MSG

MRC-5 Cellular Protein (aborted fetal cell lines)

Sodium Phosphate Dibasic

Mother - posted on 04/17/2009

Quoting Melissa:

Just an FYI to all that are choosing not to vaccinate or to pick an choose, I did see yesterday on the news that there is about 10 children showing signs of mumps, and anyone that has been exposed to them should be getting the MMR vaccine. I mean seriously these diseases have been gone for years, why are people choosing to risk the chance of them coming back?

I think thats awesome!!! I'd rather have my child gets measles...mumps...chicken pox and the such now as oppose to later in life when it can pose serious problems. I think you already know why people are chosing to not vaccinate but in case not.....people are tired of giving up childhood diseases for chronic ones later on. Aside from that all the ingredients don't sit well with non-vaxers. In saying that....it is a choice and I respect your choice to vaccinate.

Angie - posted on 04/17/2009

Quoting Ally:

I have spaced out my daughters vaccines and declined some altogether while delaying others. I do highly recommend the vaccine book by dr.sears..along with doing your own research...request package inserts and review the clinical studies thoroughly! my daughter is a year old and up to date on her pc,hib and dtap vaccines b/c those are the ones i felt were the most important. i saw several cases of whooping cough while in nursing school and it was awful..the pneumococous bacteria is very prevalent and can be serious and the hib b/c although rare it can be life threatening to infants and young children. we started vaccines at 4 months she got no more than 1-2 shots per visit and they were spaced out at least a month apart. Another important thing to consider is that my daughter is totally breastfed, not in daycare or church nurseries ...wealso didnt even start taking he out to crowded places like the mall or out to eat until she was about 7 months old. and with me being a nurse and my husband being a paramedic we are hand washing freaks! these are all things to consider when making this decision.if you would like id be happy to email you the schedule we are using. good luck!

Hi, would you please email me the schedule you use.  My email is rambita@hotmail.com.  My husband and I aren't against vaccinations, but we'd feel more comfortable if we could space them out more.  We want to do what's best for our son, and we truly think that maybe too many shots are being given too soon and at the same time.  We've looked into other countries, and realized that in the US, within a baby's first year they would have received more shots than what most other countries require for a person's lifespan.  I know we have to protect our children and others from life threatening diseases, but there has to be a better way.

Melissa - posted on 04/17/2009

Just an FYI to all that are choosing not to vaccinate or to pick an choose, I did see yesterday on the news that there is about 10 children showing signs of mumps, and anyone that has been exposed to them should be getting the MMR vaccine. I mean seriously these diseases have been gone for years, why are people choosing to risk the chance of them coming back?

Karen - posted on 04/17/2009

Hi Kay My name is Karen we have recently started a circle of moms reguarding immunizations---It's called Vaccines:The Mommy Force. We post videos,links and articles concerning vaccines and the current schdules of inoculations. We would like to extend an invitation if you would like to join. Karen.

Jamie - posted on 04/17/2009

Definitely do your research!! Ask your pediatrician if you can spread out the vaccinations instead of getting so many at once. Eventually if you are sending your child to school you are going to have to have all vaccinations updated even for preschool. Hope this helps!!

Marisa - posted on 04/16/2009

i agree!

Trudy - posted on 04/16/2009

Jaquie - Wow, I am so sorry to hear what happened to your son!



Truthfully, meninigits has been the one vax I have always been on the fence about and mainly because the deterioration can happen so quickly - particularly with viral meningitis. To be honest, what has been stopping me is exactly what you described - serotype replacement. While the vaccines have been very effective at reducing the strains they are meant for, we are seeing a surge in other (some more serious) strains,



I think it is awful that they made you feel so guilty when you certainly didn't need it! I know when my daughter gets the flu! I dislike that they said she *may* have been protected from the vax.



FWIW, here are some studies showing that serotype replacement IS an issue and I think their guilt trip (re: your child *may* have been protected from HiB) was just that.



http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/20...



If you look at that study, it shows that all the children looked at were vaccinated against HiB and obviously some still contracted HiF.



Then there is this that looks at the increase of HiF. Again, it is because of the HiB vaccine that we are seeing serotype replacement.



http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/5...



Anyway, glad to hear your son is ultimately okay. What a difficult time.

Trudy - posted on 04/16/2009

Just to add to my earlier post to help you in your research (if you are interested in studies regarding any of the diseases, let me know and I will be happy to post them.. there are many so I don't want to flood the thread! ;o))....



1. Here is an excellent site that lists all of the ingredients in various vaccines. It is helpful because you can filter by specific info you want. IE if you want to know which vaccines contain aluminum or cow serum, for example.



http://www.informedchoice.info/



Some other things to consider and research -



2. The problem with waning immunity. Most dieases with modern nutrition, santitation and health care are well managed in children. Waning immunity is causing these diseases to be pushed into the adult vector of the population when we are at more risk for complications.



3. Vaccine reactions are grossly underreported so the stats are a bit skewed on the effectiveness of vaccines. For example, a study proved that pertussis is widely misdiagnosed because pediatricians figure a person cannot have the disease if they have been vaccinated. Therefore, there are far more people who DO contract the disease than reported and a large number are vaccinated.



4. Consider contamination of the cell lines being used to manufacture vaccines. This is a very LONG read (but well worth it for your child's health! ;o)) but it discusses this issue. It's not even an anti-vax article - just stating the facts with many sources cited:



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0...



5. Consider why the vaccine manufacturers demanded that the US government grant them innunity from being sued over vaccine damage. They don't do this for other medications and perhaps that is because mass number of people are being vaccinated and thus mass numbers of adverse reactions. To date, almost 2 BILLION has been paid out of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program for vaccine injury and they are underreported!



6. http://www.who.int/immunization/document...



The first paragraph -



"Currently available vaccines have largely been developed empirically, with little or no understanding on how they activate the immune system."



So if they don't understand how it is activating the immune system how can they possibly know they are not damaging it?



7. Every package insert for every vaccine states that it has not been studied for carcinogenic effects, mutation or fertility impairment.





8. It's a very good idea to look at each vaccine package insert (doctors are supposed to give this out, but often do not) and then here is some info on interpreting some of that info:



Pneumococcal:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...



HepB:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...



DTaP:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...



HiB:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...



MMR:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...



Polio:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...



Chicken Pox:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...

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Quoting Christine:

One thing that I did was wait until he is 1 yr old before administering any immunizations. I didn't feel right giving him a bunch of stuff while he was so young, because if he would have had the immunizations that the CDC recommends, he would have had nearly half by 1 yr old. There is plenty of time over the next 4 yrs to get his immunizations spaced out, before he is enrolled in school.

firstly this is a hard story to tell, but I do, frequently, just to educate those out there what could happen

With my 2nd I decided to do a delayed vaccination (wait til he was 1) based on alot of research... I do know several ppl who do not immunize at all or had chosen a delayed schedule. based on what we went through with our oldest, he was born early but received all his shots on schedule (which I believe was too early for him being premature).

so my second son at 4 months old contracted bacterial meningitis, haemophilis influenza, strain F, the one children are vaccinated for is HIB (haemphilis influenza, strain B) we were told that there might be some cross protection as they do not see alot of HIF cases. no one will ever know but we were made to feel awful by the infections control ppl at that hospital at a time when no one needs to feel any worse about the choices you make. In the end they did admit that they cannot say for sure had he been current with immunizations if he would have been spared this ordeal.

it was the worst experience in our lives. He had  a spinal tap, to remove the fluid and test it, it causes severe swelling of the menges in the spine and brain. This baby had the worst headache of his life. The illness can cause death, deafness and learning problems. He was treated with intravenous antibiotics for two weeks. he spent one night in the intensive care, anyone who has been in this situations knows that its impossible to explain what goes through your head when you see your tiny baby hooked upto so many tubes and monitors. I stayed the next two weeks in hospital praying, nursing and caring for him. i watched them put in intravenouse in his feet, and lastly head, the IV rarely stay in for long.

Cole was blessed to be spared the worst- Praise the Lord. He has no hearing or cognitive problems.

Immunization is a very personal choice, one you should research well. I believe benefits outweigh risks but you need to look at the individual child (re egg allergy etc).  You can also look at what mothers of autistic children have to say.

Stephanie - posted on 04/16/2009

My daughter is 11, and the doc is telling me she needs to have the HPV vaccine. It is a fairly new vaccine, and I am just not so sure about it. Any knowledgable advice out there? Thanks!

Blessings,

~Stephanie

Caitlin - posted on 04/16/2009

Definitely do your research, as all of these other parents are saying. It is very important that you do not make any decision blindly! Educate yourself. No matter what you decide, remember that YOU are the parent and you need to do what you feel is right for your child. Vaccines are for the better of our children, however, they are risky, and every child may react to them differently. If you don't feel comfortable, have them spaced out as previously mentioned by another parent. Something else that you need to remember is that there is no state that has a LAW that states that you HAVE to vaccinate your child. It is true that most schools need a vaccine record in order to enroll, but you can get a waiver. There are many people who do not vaccinate their children at ALL due to religious or personal reasons, and their children still go to daycare, school, etc.

So once again, it is your decision, and only you can make the decision that you feel is right for your child. But definitely educate yourself!

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Kudos to you!!! As it should be....your choice!!

Christie - posted on 04/15/2009

Do your research, but follow your heart on this one. MOST kids won't react to a vaccine, but if yours is one that does, you don't want to have any regrets about how you made your decision. I started my kids later, because I breastfed and kept them out of day care (AKA infection breeding grounds), and then would only let them get one at a time, because if they reacted, I wanted to know exactly which vaccine was causing the problem. The docs tolerated me, and the public health nurses always rolled their eyes, but ultimately, I am the one who had to sign the consent. You can check the recommended time frame for each individual vaccine. This is only what I felt comfortable with - please decide for yourself what is right.

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Also I thought I would add something about bonuses As far as no kick backs or bonuses...this is plain rubbish. I took this from a recent UK conversation someone and myself just had about this very subject.These alarming headlines of "bonuses for administering teens contraceptives...not sending you to the hospital...bonuses for referrals and so on". The one that stood out the most was the one that said GP's get bonuses for 70% of children getting their vaccinations. AND...if you want to remain on the GP's list as a patient....you must comply to the vaccine schedule. What is that??? Coercsion?? Mandatory?? Bribery?? I call it corrupt. Denying someone medical help because they refuse a medical procedure that you are getting kick backs from....shameful

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Actually Karen I do not live in the US and am very aware of how the UK runs things. Comparing small pox to todays vaxes is not relevent....polio however is and if you research further you wil realise polio is still around but has been reclassified. Most childhood diseases were on decline long before vaccines were introduced. As far as measles and chicken pox and even mumps....natural immunity is a preferred choice in my opinion. Vaccinations do not give immunity....if it did you wouldn't care whether i was vaccinated or not because you would be protected.

Actually assinine means utter foolishness. And when you state an obvious contradiction....that is utter foolishness. You can however try to manipulate that if you wish. I was commenting on your statement and not your character.

Karen - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Kelly:

Quoting Karen:

Clearly as part of the nhs we do not make money from vaccinating our children and parents do not have to pay for this or take out the sort of medical insurance required in the US. However my employers are paid for reaching the targets required to achieve herd immunity when children are at their most vulnerable to diseases.

My advice re vaccinations to mum's I see is based on peer reviewed evidence based research which is continually being updated. My public health responsibilities were also paramount when deciding to vaccinate my own children, as by increasing the herd immunity within the their age cohort at nursery, school and now uni would also protect other children. I
Karen

I'm always curious when I see stuff like this. Where do you think that money comes from??? It does not just fall from the sky. To state that no money is made from vaccination programs and then in the same breath admit to kickbacks for reaching desired percentage is assinine. So in order to get that bonus do you think the doctor would have the childs best interest at heart or his pocket???

 

Herd immunity is a joke. I suggest everyone go straight to the CDC website and look at how immune the adult population is. Did you know that 98% of all adults (by CDC's stats) are virtually unvaccinated?? that most have never been "topped up" since they had their childhood needles. So.....considering that 98% of all adults who run our healthcare....care for our children....look after the elderly....essentially make this world go round, who is the biggest risk group??? So if 98% of all adults are no vaccinated doesn't that already poke HUGE gaping holes in your herd immunity???

I shall not bore you with how the nhs in the uk is funded by UK tax payers and meant to provide iur health care free at the point of need to the whole of our population from cradle to grave. Similarly, I will not bore you with stats showing that the payment I quote is a small per capita fee and not a bonus and awarded for providing immunisaton services  including advice and education for all patients whether they agree to take up all vaccines offered or not. It is certainly less than the cost of the vaccination progtamme which is government run. UK GPs have a contract with the government and are paid for each of the services they provide in primary care.  If they opt out of any aspect of these services then they will not be paid for that particular service and the local PCT will have to ensure that patients can recieve that nhs service elsewhere.  These fees then pay my wages and those of my colleagues  and I can assure you that my £13 per hour despite a degree and extensive training in many areas of my speciality,  does not go far and and is not my motivation for doing the job I do.  Yes I do believe that the members of the nursng and medical profession I work with always have their patient's best interestx at heart whether they are children or adults.

I cannot comment on why the adult population in the US are not appropriately vaccinated with boosters if and when they are required as I openly admit to having little understanding regarding how healthcare is provided there, particularly for those without the means to pay or without adequate insurance.  In the UK few boosters are required in adulthood once primary courses have been completed unless travelling abroad or working in certain occupations and our uptake in adults is extremely good as it is with children except for MMR in recent years. In the UK healthcare professionals are not allowed to look after the elderly or children without proving that they are up to date with their immunisations.  This is part of their occupational health requirements and employers are responsible for ensuring this for their staff, to protect their staff as well as their patients.

If herd immunity and vaccination is such a joke, how did we control small pox?  how are we controlling polio where widespread vaccination has been accomplished yet polio outbreaks persist where vaccination coverage has not been achieved? why did we see such sharp falls in measles mumps and rubella in the uk [for most of my career] when vaccine uptake was at least 90% and now see significant outbreaks in parts of the UK where the MMR scare affected vaccine up take, bringing it to an all time low?

I believe the word 'assinine' can be defined as dim-witted and stupid?  Not sure I deserved that? I will not be replying again and realise that it was probably inappropriate for me to have tried to contribute to a thread that is exploring a health service I have no experoence of.  I hope you find your own answers Kay and are supported and encouraged by your own health care professional and that you can find someone you can trust. Good luck with your search!

Karen

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Corrine:

congrats on being an RN! yay for you. i am 22 years old and have never missed a booster. I recieve my yellow fever and TD every 10 years, MGC every 5, Typhoid every 2, and my flu every year. my son has never missed a vaccine and so far has NEVER been sick. I have worked in the medical field for the last 5 years. if anyone of you wants to not vaccinate your child, good for you. thats your decision to make. I am just not willing to take the chance of not getting him vaccinated, and being around a child who is sick, and also not vaccinated. then there is that opportunity for my child to catch whatever it is that the other one has. and never once did i say that someone elses choice is unsafe...i simply stated that it wasnt smart IN MY OPINION and that you shouldnt play games with your childs health. the end. so dont get on here and bitch and complain about my post. she asked for opinions, and i gave mine. if you want to critisize me or complain to me, send me a message and we can talk there, but i refuse to sit here and argue on someone elses post.

What a wonderful display of maturity and class the last post has presented. I think you need to go to anger management or something. It is possible to disagree with someone and still treat them with respect. Stop talking trash...your age is showing. And profanity only shows your lack of  eloquence and manipulation of the english language.

Maybe in those five years of working in the medical establishment ....you should have taken some proper english or some Miss Manners courses.

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Corrine:

congrats on being an RN! yay for you. i am 22 years old and have never missed a booster. I recieve my yellow fever and TD every 10 years, MGC every 5, Typhoid every 2, and my flu every year. my son has never missed a vaccine and so far has NEVER been sick. I have worked in the medical field for the last 5 years. if anyone of you wants to not vaccinate your child, good for you. thats your decision to make. I am just not willing to take the chance of not getting him vaccinated, and being around a child who is sick, and also not vaccinated. then there is that opportunity for my child to catch whatever it is that the other one has. and never once did i say that someone elses choice is unsafe...i simply stated that it wasnt smart IN MY OPINION and that you shouldnt play games with your childs health. the end. so dont get on here and bitch and complain about my post. she asked for opinions, and i gave mine. if you want to critisize me or complain to me, send me a message and we can talk there, but i refuse to sit here and argue on someone elses post.

What a wonderful display of maturity and class the last post has presented. I think you need to go to anger management or something. It is possible to disagree with someone and still treat them with respect. Stop talking trash...your age is showing. And profanity only shows your lack of  eloquence and manipulation of the english language.

Maybe in those five years of working in the medical establishment ....you should have taken some proper english or some Miss Manners courses.

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

both of my sons my first at 5 months and my second at 6 weeks where hospitalized with rsv... it is something we adults get all the time. its just one of the common cold viruses. the doctors tell you that the reason the babies get so sick is because they can't get rid of the symptoms like we can. we can clear congestion by coughing it up and clearing our throats however disgusting that it may be... and the little ones simply can't... it is so scary when they get it, and you're first thought is oh my gosh i gave it to my baby cuz i kissed on them or something...  but the good thing is that just because their around it doesn't mean they will get it cuz it all amounts to washing hands and keepin peoples hands of your babies faces and hands,,, and if you think you are getting a cold absolutely don't kiss them!!! it's just like keepin our own selves from catching them nagging chest cold that goes around all winter... i had not realized that it actually WAS a cold until my own kids had it.

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Karen:

Clearly as part of the nhs we do not make money from vaccinating our children and parents do not have to pay for this or take out the sort of medical insurance required in the US. However my employers are paid for reaching the targets required to achieve herd immunity when children are at their most vulnerable to diseases.

My advice re vaccinations to mum's I see is based on peer reviewed evidence based research which is continually being updated. My public health responsibilities were also paramount when deciding to vaccinate my own children, as by increasing the herd immunity within the their age cohort at nursery, school and now uni would also protect other children. I
Karen

I'm always curious when I see stuff like this. Where do you think that money comes from??? It does not just fall from the sky. To state that no money is made from vaccination programs and then in the same breath admit to kickbacks for reaching desired percentage is assinine. So in order to get that bonus do you think the doctor would have the childs best interest at heart or his pocket???

Herd immunity is a joke. I suggest everyone go straight to the CDC website and look at how immune the adult population is. Did you know that 98% of all adults (by CDC's stats) are virtually unvaccinated?? that most have never been "topped up" since they had their childhood needles. So.....considering that 98% of all adults who run our healthcare....care for our children....look after the elderly....essentially make this world go round, who is the biggest risk group??? So if 98% of all adults are no vaccinated doesn't that already poke HUGE gaping holes in your herd immunity???

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

this was in response to the rsv discussion

Sara - posted on 04/15/2009

both of my sons my first at 5 months and my second at 6 weeks where hospitalized with rsv... it is something we adults get all the time. its just one of the common cold viruses. the doctors tell you that the reason the babies get so sick is because they can't get rid of the symptoms like we can. we can clear congestion by coughing it up and clearing our throats however disgusting that it may be... and the little ones simply can't... it is so scary when they get it, and you're first thought is oh my gosh i gave it to my baby cuz i kissed on them or something...  but the good thing is that just because their around it doesn't mean they will get it cuz it all amounts to washing hands and keepin peoples hands of your babies faces and hands,,, and if you think you are getting a cold absolutely don't kiss them!!! it's just like keepin our own selves from catching them nagging chest cold that goes around all winter... i had not realized that it actually WAS a cold until my own kids had it.

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Jeanette:

off one of the other previous web site I listed in my prev post, it links to this site: http://www.immunize.org/reports/ which has stories for every disease that has vaccines as to the people who got sick and died from the illness because they didn't get the vaccine. I for one know that i would never forgive myself if my kids got sick and died from an illness that is preventable with a vaccine, or at least the vaccine makes it not lethal. And I stress that a coincidence of TIME does not equal CAUSE!

Hmmmm.....you are assuming that the drop in childhood diseases were from the vaccines. Which I'm sorry to say is correlation and not causal.....as pro-vaxers so love to point out.  And to use your words...."And I stress that a coincidence of TIME does not equal CAUSE! "

If you're going to make a case for, and using correlation, you have to be very careful. If you cite simple correlation as proof of vaccines' efficacy you must simultaneously concede that vaccines are responsible for the significant increase in a range of illnesses since their introduction, illnesses such as cancer, diabetes, autoimmune disease and allergic disorders.

Mother - posted on 04/15/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

It we did not get immunized - we would have serious diseases and die from them in this country.. it is true they are controversal but thousands more now live because of immunizations.. there are state requirements that differ in each state and kids need the immunization records to enroll in school. Some pediatricians will space them out for you if you request that. I personally do not believe they should get more than a few shots at a time per visit. Jenn

While there might be requirements....this is not set in stone. You can get exemptions so your children can attend school in both Canada and the US. They can not stop your children from going to school like they try to scare parents into thinking. However.....you do have to sign aan oath before a notary saying if an outbreak of said diseases happened you would remove your children from school. My philosophy is....I wouldn't want them there anyways. I am a non-vaxer and have enver had a problem. I've had doctors try to scare me into vaccinating...no thanks. they everntually stop harrassing me...i think it might have something to do with the crazed look i get in my eye!!! LOL

Emily - posted on 04/14/2009

Definitely do your research based on reliable info. It was a tough decision for me so I loosely followed Dr. Cave's vaccination schedule, starting them at 4 months old and spreading them out. I felt fine about my son actually getting the vaccines, I was just uncomfortable with him getting them all at once and at every visit. We spaced them out so he was only getting 1 or 2 shots every 2 months. And I'll hold off on the chicken pox vaccine until he's ready to go to school, and I don't give him flu shots.

[deleted account]

Quoting Ally:

corrine,
just because someone chooses to not vaccinate or selectively vaccinate does not mean they are playing games with their childs health! there are many educated professionals (myself included-i am a registered nurse) who strongly believes there are not enough studies being done and that we are way over vaccinating our kids. there is a reason why vaccines such as DPT and OPV are no longer on the market bc after many years of parents being told these are perfectly safe they came to realize that they were doing more harm than good. and with the whole mercury/thimerisol thing..if you truly belive that it was removed as a preservative just to make consumers happy without any proof that it caused damage you are being incredibly naive.

as for your statistics how about the one that is undisputed that there is now 1 autistic kid in every 150 and before mandatory vaccinations began that number was about 1 in 10,000..so although im not saying i believe all the hype it is really not prudent to discount that fact.

also vaccines (at least most of them) require boosters to keep you and vulnerable populations protected and very few people actually get them when needed compared to natural immunity provided from infection from diseases like chicken pox or rubella that are childhood illnesses meant to be had and usually quite harmless in most children.

then when those vaccines wear off..usually after about ten years you have an adolescent or young adult livivng in close quarters with others such as in college and they are the least likely to keep up with booster shots. now you have set up a perfect opportunity for an outbreak of something like chickenpox when it could be much more deadly.

i have done lots of independent research , read the medical jornals cover to cover reviewed clinical trials and studies and still chose to selectively vaccinate. so just because someone does something that isnt what you would have chosen for their own family doesn't mean their choice is any less safe or appropriate for their family.

congrats on being an RN! yay for you. i am 22 years old and have never missed a booster. I recieve my yellow fever and TD every 10 years, MGC every 5, Typhoid every 2, and my flu every year. my son has never missed a vaccine and so far has NEVER been sick. I have worked in the medical field for the last 5 years. if anyone of you wants to not vaccinate your child, good for you. thats your decision to make. I am just not willing to take the chance of not getting him vaccinated, and being around a child who is sick, and also not vaccinated. then there is that opportunity for my child to catch whatever it is that the other one has. and never once did i say that someone elses choice is unsafe...i simply stated that it wasnt smart IN MY OPINION and that you shouldnt play games with your childs health. the end. so dont get on here and bitch and complain about my post. she asked for opinions, and i gave mine. if you want to critisize me or complain to me, send me a message and we can talk there, but i refuse to sit here and argue on someone elses post.

Trudy - posted on 04/11/2009

I think ypu should do your research on each disease and each vaccine. The CDC Pink Book is a good resource and look closely at the vaccine inserts for each vaccine. The playing of words is quire clever in that they say no CLEAR association between X vaccine and Y disease is made... but often they've not bothered to even do the studies for them so of course no association is made! Also, when they are piggybacking so many vaccines, how would they even begin to tell you which component is responsible for which side effect?



Anyway, if you do decide to vaccinate after doing your research (Inside Vaccines is a good place to start) then I would HIGHLY recommend a delayed schedule and along the lines of what Katie suggested.. being very careful about spacing vaccines - particularly when alum and/or mercury is involved!



There ARE still trace amounts in many vaccines and some vaccines (flu and hepb) still contain "full" doses of it.

Betty - posted on 04/11/2009

i think everyone os going to have very different opinions on this subject!so i too think u should really do research and go with what u think is best not what others tell u! it's u'r cjild, u'r future, u'r choice. i did a lot of research and made the decision to not vaccinate our child. check out this website it had a lot of info on it and tells what the ingredients r in the vaccines....it helps to know what exactly u r injecting into u'r children! www.vran.org. but again.....do u'r research and go with what u think is best. i'm not gunna argue the point if it's better to or not to vaccinate. it could be an ongoing arguement. this is just the decision i made for our child and i'm not going to push anything on anyone. totally up to u! but good luck!!! :D

Carmine - posted on 04/11/2009

My daughter just had her 2 month immunizations on March 30th for dipheria, tetnus, whooping cough, and other serious diseases that could result in death. She gets the same shots at 4, 6, 9 and 18 months, then at 1 year they start giving her the next set of immunizations. She also gave us sheets on what the disease was, and the side effects of each such as irritability, drowsiness, and red/bruise/soreness at the injection site. It was hard having to see her get those long needles all the way into her little legs, but I looked more at her face and tried to calm her than watching the needle, that made it so much easier! I'd recommend calling your local Public Health and asking a nurse about immunizations if you have any other questions.

Aleksandra - posted on 04/11/2009

Quoting Jeanette:

off one of the other previous web site I listed in my prev post, it links to this site: http://www.immunize.org/reports/ which has stories for every disease that has vaccines as to the people who got sick and died from the illness because they didn't get the vaccine. I for one know that i would never forgive myself if my kids got sick and died from an illness that is preventable with a vaccine, or at least the vaccine makes it not lethal. And I stress that a coincidence of TIME does not equal CAUSE!

and I would never forgive myself if i would give my children shots and they would die because of SIDS or have other terrible sicknesses severe or not. 

We all have to make decisions in life and live with the consequences.

I really do wish all of us mothers the best because that is what we want for our kids and whatever decision we make I pray that God will protect our families.

Karen - posted on 04/11/2009

I am in the UK. I had both of my children vaccinated against all of the childhood scheduled vaccines and for other vaccines regarding foreign travel destinations. I also vaccinate children and adults as part of their preparation for travel to countries where disease prevalence is very different to in the UK or US. Thus I am openly biased towards the pros of vaccination generally. I only wish that UK children were given the option of the additional vaccines you have available to you in the US.

Clearly as part of the nhs we do not make money from vaccinating our children and parents do not have to pay for this or take out the sort of medical insurance required in the US. However my employers are paid for reaching the targets required to achieve herd immunity when children are at their most vulnerable to diseases.

My advice re vaccinations to mum's I see is based on peer reviewed evidence based research which is continually being updated. My public health responsibilities were also paramount when deciding to vaccinate my own children, as by increasing the herd immunity within the their age cohort at nursery, school and now uni would also protect other children. I am old enough to have nursed children in intensive care with measles and would never like to see this again. However as a practice nurse in the UK where we are seeing outbreaks again due to the number of parents who have not vaccinated their children, I am now diagnosing and seeing children again with these diseases which I never thought I would see again in an economically developed country.

2 members of my extended family have autism, neither of them have been vaccinated. One of them nearly died from measles when aged 9 and they are left with long term medical problems as a result of contracting the disease. [Anecdotal maybe, but true!]

As part of your research, you may find the following sites also worth reading especially if you plan to travel with your children too.
.
http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/
http://www.fitfortravel.nhs.uk/home.aspx
http://www.nathnac.org/

Karen

Jeanette - posted on 04/10/2009

off one of the other previous web site I listed in my prev post, it links to this site: http://www.immunize.org/reports/ which has stories for every disease that has vaccines as to the people who got sick and died from the illness because they didn't get the vaccine. I for one know that i would never forgive myself if my kids got sick and died from an illness that is preventable with a vaccine, or at least the vaccine makes it not lethal. And I stress that a coincidence of TIME does not equal CAUSE!

Aleksandra - posted on 04/10/2009

Quoting Jeanette:

 

The site you refer to seems to me to be a very one-sided anti-vaccine site, only discussing the case reports of people who MAY have gotten sick from a vaccine. Remember, timing does not necessarily mean cause. Additional sites that may be helpful include http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheet...

As someone involved in healthcare, I have seen first hand the complications that are directly PROVEN to be causes from some diseases that could have been prevented with vaccine. On the other hand, I have yet to see someone suffer consequences that are PROVEN to be from the vaccine.

I know that website is one sided, but so is the information from the CDC. I had to make a choice and believe someone and I trust those doctors that left the medical profession to find answers and I do believe the mothers whose children have been affected by shots.  they have no profit from this.  If there was only couple of cases where there was a concidence btw shots and sudden death or autism or other diseases for that matter then I would question it, but there are just too many stories.

Also, I have worked with children with Autism for 6 years and I have seen first hand complications after the shots. I have sat down with those mothers and I heard their stories and their cries and their struggles.

My son received only one shot, his 2 months DPT, he was the sickest that year. He is 3yrs old and never had any problems after that. My second child hasn't been vaccinated and is very healthy also.

All the children that I know that have been vaccinated have either severe egzemas, asthmas, allergies, chronic ear infections, get sick very often or have autism.

[deleted account]

I know what effect vaccines had on my childrens health, I dont need to prove that to anyone. I also work in healthcare.

[deleted account]

Hi Kay, as other moms have said - do your research, theres plenty of info out there but you have to dig around for it a bit.

There is a 21 year age gap between my oldest and youngest children. In those 2 decades the number of vaccinations has doubled - yet the overall health of our children has not improved. Some of my children had some vaccinations, my youngest had only one. I can say that in my familys case, the children that had the fewest jabs are the healthiest. Im only sorry my son had even one jab. The unvaccinated kids I know are robustly healthy and I feel I shouldve put more trust in what nature gave my kids to fight infection.

The benefits of extended breastfeeding (over a year) are well documented, research in Sweden found that every extra week of Bfeeding caused a 5% reduction in the likelihood of your child catching Hib, so ignore the person who said it had no benefit after 6 months!

vacinfo.org and insidevaccines.com are two sites that helped me make the right choices for my little boy.

After the one DTaP shot which made him desperately ill, he has not had another. He is now 20 months old and has not seen a doctor since that awful day. It took months for him to get over the jab and become the happy contented baby he had been before.

Having said that, youre going to find lots of moms who are all in favour of vaccines ..which is why youre going to have to do your own research! Good luck and best wishes.

Helen - posted on 04/10/2009

All i know is that if my little nephew had not had the MMR jab he would have died from measles ( a very bad case that was reduced in severity by the jab) the ignorance of some people really does scare me.

Annette - posted on 04/10/2009

I don't know the time in between. I know you could site religious  objections if you don't want to get them. I think they give them much to early and that's one reason the babies get sick from them. They also give to many at once.

Jeanette - posted on 04/10/2009

Quoting Ally:

corrine,
just because someone chooses to not vaccinate or selectively vaccinate does not mean they are playing games with their childs health! there are many educated professionals (myself included-i am a registered nurse) who strongly believes there are not enough studies being done and that we are way over vaccinating our kids. there is a reason why vaccines such as DPT and OPV are no longer on the market bc after many years of parents being told these are perfectly safe they came to realize that they were doing more harm than good. and with the whole mercury/thimerisol thing..if you truly belive that it was removed as a preservative just to make consumers happy without any proof that it caused damage you are being incredibly naive.

as for your statistics how about the one that is undisputed that there is now 1 autistic kid in every 150 and before mandatory vaccinations began that number was about 1 in 10,000..so although im not saying i believe all the hype it is really not prudent to discount that fact.

also vaccines (at least most of them) require boosters to keep you and vulnerable populations protected and very few people actually get them when needed compared to natural immunity provided from infection from diseases like chicken pox or rubella that are childhood illnesses meant to be had and usually quite harmless in most children.

then when those vaccines wear off..usually after about ten years you have an adolescent or young adult livivng in close quarters with others such as in college and they are the least likely to keep up with booster shots. now you have set up a perfect opportunity for an outbreak of something like chickenpox when it could be much more deadly.

i have done lots of independent research , read the medical jornals cover to cover reviewed clinical trials and studies and still chose to selectively vaccinate. so just because someone does something that isnt what you would have chosen for their own family doesn't mean their choice is any less safe or appropriate for their family.

with the autism diagnosis, doctors also know a lot more about what is "normal" behavior vs. "autistic" behavior so they can diagnos better. Also the autism span is a lot browder than it used to be, so of course more kids are going to be diagnosed! What about the other chemicals that we are putting in their systems, such as the flame retardant chemicals in all of their clothing?? http://www.ecologycenter.org/iptf/plasti...  

User - posted on 04/10/2009

Please do some of the boring research, too. Look on the CDC.gov website. Check out the news about how many kids have died of Hemophilus influenza B meningitis this year (this is something that no one had heard of in the last few decades, thanks to the immunization for HIB). Consider -- would you rather have your child have an achey leg for a day or two, or contract a deadly illness? Find an elderly person who is still suffering because of Polio. Most people are young and uninformed enough that they have no idea how bad it is/could be!