Spanking can cause long term harm (just saying)

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/12/2012 ( 228 moms have responded )

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http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/spanki...



"What people have realized is that physical punishment doesn't only predict aggression consistently, it also predicts internalizing kinds of difficulties, like depression and substance use," said Durant.

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Carolyn - posted on 02/14/2012

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"Spankings create resentment within a child that can rise up in a moment of anger and produce violence once again." - Pamela Waiolena



I totally agree with you, Pamela!! I was spanked, my mother later said she did it "too much", whatever that means, I don't know. But I know I resented those that I recall, and actually never felt close to her, didn't want to be touched by her. Maybe something else played into that as well, I don't know. I know she loved me, but I never felt close to her, which saddens me. I remember once as a teen she got mad and tried to smack me and I put up my arm in defense and it made her mad, but too bad, I don't let anyone hit me! But I do have that anger of which you speak, lying underneath my surface, so when I'm highly frustrated it makes me want to throw something. I wish I didn't feel like that! I sure don't want my precious daughters feeling that way either!

Pamela - posted on 02/14/2012

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I am not certain who you are quoting but common sense will tell you that violence begets violence. Some people do not believe that spanking is violence but hitting a child or any other person is indeed violence.



I was reared in the 50's when spanking was the usual means of discipline. I endured what would today be called "beatings" as on occasion I was hit hard enough to cause black and blue welts on my legs and bottom. I remember the anguish it caused me and learned, while rearing my oldest child not to hit to discipline. I took a course called Parent Effectiveness Training, (PET) which came with a thick book and practicum lessons.



My first son had 'spankings' (rarely) until he was 3 and I took the course. Thereafter I was extremely happy to have found a way to discipline without violence. My second and third sons were reared without spankings.....at least until their father and I divorced. I have no idea what his third wife did to discipline the children, but they did not receive spankings from me. I would hope that they are healthier emotionally as a result, they certainly seem to be.



Spankings create resentment within a child that can rise up in a moment of anger and produce violence once again. PLEASE, all you Moms and Dads SAY NO TO SPANKINGS. There are far kinder ways to discipline, even difficult children!

[deleted account]

Can you explain what good positive punishment means? As far as i can see, punishment is a negative thing. People can have positive parenting techniques, but anything negative does not fall into this category..

Carolyn - posted on 02/14/2012

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Yes we need to teach them, absolutely, but spanking is not required for teaching!!

[deleted account]

Your own personal anecdotes are not worth a fart in a windstorm when it comes to refuting data.

BAHAHAHAA

Becci - posted on 02/14/2012

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I am a mother of 3 and live in the uk and I smack my children but only as a last resort,I do the whole "naughty step" thing time outs,take toys away etc I always warn them and honestly don't think it does them any harm!we need to disipline our children,we seem to be bringing up spoilt,unruley children who have no respect for their elders!!I was spanked as a child ( not abused) and I am a law abiding citizen and don't do drugs I am married and work and think honestly the world is going mad if we are not careful we really will be surrounded by murderers,drug dealers delinquents who have never been disiplined in their life and don't know right from wrong!!serioustly stop wrapping your kids in cotton wool and when they do wrong teach them!!That's what a parent is for and no I don't mean beating your child I mean a short sharp smack to say NO that is naughty!

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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Julia, that was a quote directly copied from someone else......hence the quotation marks and why I wrote to watch it with personal attacks. Reading past posts is very helpful.

Jodi - posted on 02/14/2012

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**MOD WARNING***



Ladies, if we cannot debate without personal attacks, this thread will be locked.



Thank you

Jodi

WtCoM Moderator

[deleted account]

Little miss can't be wrong, you posted 'Watch it with the personal attacks will you? If you cannot debate with out degrading or name calling....walk away." and called someone dumb in the same post...take your own advice.

Carolyn - posted on 02/14/2012

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I'm sorry, but that scripture (spare the rod & spoil the child) is so misused when people use it to justify spanking. It did not mean spanking/ hitting anyone. A shepherd's staff (rod) was used to GUIDE the sheep, not hit them. We are to guide our children, not hit them. Discipline does not have to mean physical punishment, but guiding and teaching.



edit to add - it looks like Cindie and I were in sync regarding the misuse of the scripture! :o)

Krista - posted on 02/14/2012

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That's why kids are having kids, kids are buying and selling and do drugs, that's why kids are running away, that's why kids are swearing and thinking that is ok to bully another child at school on the buses and in public .



What, you think this is NEW? Do me a favour and do a search for juvenile delinquency in the 1950's.



"During the decade the problem of juvenile delinquency reached alarming proportions. As director of the Federal Bureau of Investigations J. Edgar Hoover reported in 1953, that "persons under the age of 18 committed 53.6 percent of all car thefts; 49.3 percent of all burglaries; 18 percent of all robberies, and 16.2 percent of all rapes."

Americans were concerned not only by the number of youth crimes but by their ferocity. Reports abounded of sadistic acts committed by young criminals who often expressed no remorse.




And I could be nuts here, but I'm guessing that parents in the late 1930's were PROBABLY not particularly shy to spank...

Cindie - posted on 02/14/2012

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Okay, I just HAVE TO put my 2 cents worth in here! I am an EXPERT (someone who has lots of EXPERIENCE with these subjects.)



On the subject of the Bible verse in Proverbs. This is NOT a verse that says ANYTHING about spanking or hitting! This is talking about discipline. The rod was used to GUIDE sheep, NOT HIT THEM! Look it up and study it before you quote. A better way to quote this verse is from "The Message" - "A refusal to correct is a refusal to love; love your children by disciplining them."



Now, I am 56 years old and have raised 5 children, so I know a little (actually A LOT) about the subject of spanking.

Yes, when I grew up, I was spanked - not beaten. I have never been a drug addict.

HOWEVER....if I had do-overs, I would only spank my children on the rarest of occasions. I was very free with the spankings when my children were growing up. One of my sons in particular, was very strong willed. So I spanked him - A LOT. He is almost 25 and IS a heroin addict. I saw the error of my ways many years ago, and tried to right my wrongs, but I could not erase the rejection he felt from me when I was trying to "discipline" him with spanking. We love each other dearly, but if I had to choose one "side" or the other, based on my experience, I would NOT spank. I would love and guide in other ways.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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hey Laryssa "I'm sorry What the hell are you on? I'm assuming you must have been beaten alot cause I think you sound a bit dumb. "



Watch it with the personal attacks will you? If you cannot debate with out degrading or name calling....walk away.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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If your partner spanked you (not in a sexual way) as punishment when you spent to much money, or burned dinner, or broke a glass, spilled his/her beer.....would that be abuse? Would you allow it? Would you be depressed, sad, and feel insecure? I know I would.

Krista - posted on 02/14/2012

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I don't agree with the statement from the article "Spanking children can cause long-term developmental damage and may even lower a child's IQ" I turned out fine as did my family and friends with the majority entering college between the ages of 15 and 17, the rest entering college at the age of 18.



Sigh.



People. The plural of anecdote is not "data".



For pete's sakes, you could probably find 100 women who were sexually abused as children who have gotten past it and "turned out fine". Does that mean that you can extrapolate this to say that sexual abuse is not harmful to children? Of course not.



Your own personal anecdotes are not worth a fart in a windstorm when it comes to refuting data.



And if this were just ONE study, I could see it being fairly easy to dismiss. But the researchers examined TWENTY FREAKING YEARS of published research on the issue in order to come to that conclusion.



Do some homework, and you will find study after study after study showing time and time again that spanking is ineffective at best, and harmful at worst.



I have YET to hear about any study showing that spanking has positive benefits.



The only "proof" that I've seen from pro-spankers tend to fall into three categories:

1. I was spanked and turned out fine.

2. Kids are hooligans today and it's because nobody spanks anymore.

3. The Bible tells me to spank my kids, so that's what I do.



Find me even ONE peer-reviewed study from a reputable body showing that spanking is beneficial, and I will eat my hat.

Larysa - posted on 02/14/2012

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Spanking does not cause all the problems you are talking about. Letting your children do what they want when they want and how they want results in the problems. That's why kids are having kids, kids are buying and selling and do drugs, that's why kids are running away, that's why kids are swearing and thinking that is ok to bully another child at school on the buses and in public . It's because as parents are rights are being altered every day by groups of people who think they have all the answers. Why don't these people keep their opinions to themselves and stop inflicting their stupidity onto others.

Kester - posted on 02/14/2012

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I am sorry but spanking a child does not cause depression, or drug use or aggression! I think there are some good positive punishment out there. But spanking is not abuse! There are some kids that time out and things just don't work. People need to start making there children mind and stop giving into them. I'm tired of disrespectful and out of control children who really just need someone to make them mind!

Kelina - posted on 02/14/2012

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I hate these threads. People pick at specific things in other peoples posts and people are so unwilling to bend. Whether it's posted in the debate community or not this is a debate. When I enter a debate, I'm willing to concede a point if it's well presented, or change my opinion if the need arises but so many women I see here aren't willing to bend even the slightest bit. There are so many variables in raising children that there can't be any absolutes. I grew up saying I'd never spank my kids but they do occasionally get spanked. Telling parents that every single parent that spanks in going to damage their child irreparably is not taking into account the fact that every child responds differently, that every parent deals with things differently and not always correctly. And in this case, to my mind, it's like telling a parent who occasionally leaves their kid in the car for 30 seconds that they're exactly the same as someone who leaves their kid in the car while they go grocery shopping, or into a casino. The two situations are not the same. Comparing a parent who combines a spank with communication about why it happened, why what happened was unacceptable, and then gets on with their day with a parent who spanks for every imaginable reason, or beats their children-not the same. It's my biggest reason for disregarding these types of studies just like the studies with CIO that said the same thing were likely to happen if a parent used CIO. How could they know that it was allowing the child to cry, not because they were spanked or beaten as a child? or vice versa? or that it wasn't one single event(a parents divorce or remarrying or some such thing or the death of a grandparent) that changed the course of that child's life? There are too many variables with humans involved to be able to properly study them especially when it comes to the raising of children. Some children are also just born followers. They do things because other people pressure them into it, not because their parents spanked them. I was spanked as a kid. Honestly I hated my dad for it for a long time, not particularly because he spanked me, but because I never actually deserved it when he did. And when I did deserve it, I didn't get spanked. My guess would be that that shaped me a hell of a lot differently than if I had been spanked when I absolutely deserved it. But a scientist looking at the situation from the outside could draw the conclusion that I became reserved and depressed because of it. Especially because despite the fact that the last 3 generations of women on my mothers side had depression, none of them were ever diagnosed with it, so unless someone felt like divulging that little secret(if they even noticed it which I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who has) the person doing the study wouldn't even know. The other problem with studies like these is that they often rely on what parents tell the researchers and guess what-people lie! They forget things, even important things! Men are a wonderful example of that, always forgetting birthdays and the such. Sometimes, they lie, saying they only spanked once that week, when in reality they spanked every day, multiple times a day. Or One specific time may stand out in a parents mind, making them forget that they actually spanked every day that week because little Jane was not responding to anything else. Also, I didn't see anything in the article about a control group. did they also follow a group the same size with parents who didn't spank and how did they confirm that? People are just too random to study like this. Also to all the moms who are saying that spanking teaches a child how to hit-t really depends. My kids have both been spanked but rarely hit. My son will only hit in one of two circumstances-he's been hit repeatedly by another child and feels the need to defend himself, or he and daddy are playing a rather rough game and he gets too excited. He's just turned 3 and is still learning. My daughter doesn't hit even. Her preferred method of rebellion is throwing things and sitting on the dog which at one is understandable. She's still grasping the difference between throwing inside and throwing outside. That doesn't mean that some children it will never teach them to hit, but it does show that some kids can be spanked and still taught that hitting is wrong and therein lies the difficulty with these studies.

Kate CP - posted on 02/14/2012

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I used to spank my daughter...and when I finally realized it wasn't working I stopped. It wasn't helping her learn anything. It didn't stop her from throwing tantrums. It didn't keep her from playing with things she shouldn't. All it did was make her rage against me for swatting her butt.



All spanking does is make adults feel better. We think "There! That's a proper consequence! I *DID* something about the behavior." And it DOES make a person feel better to get their frustration out, be it yelling, punching a pillow, walking a mile, whatever.



And I always find it interesting if not thought provoking that so many parents say it's a last resort method they use. Or that other methods work better most of the time. Well, if other methods work better...why not use those other methods? Why make it a resort at ALL? Why should it even BE in a toolbox?

Lauren - posted on 02/14/2012

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I have to say that while I don't like spanking, there is a time and place for it. I think people, especially in the US these days, confuse a spanking with a beating. If you have ever read the "Little House on the Prairie" series of books, you can see what spankings are supposed to be. Laura as a little girl does something she KNOWS is bad. Her father tells her to come over to receive her spanking- it is a punishment and she knows she must obey. The spanking was not given in anger and not out of control, but as a direct consequence of her actions when she knew better.



If you are out of control with anger (or worry, or fear, or whatever) when you "spank" your child, that is very different than a spanking as punishment. Beating is also not something I believe is a punishment but rather a problem with the parent and not the child's behavior.



If you look at other cultures, many of them incorporate some kind of physical aspect to their parenting. Looking at two of the most prevalent cultures around me, I see that their children grow up healthily and to respect their parents more than most American children, as well as to value family. By spanking as mode of making it very clear to a child what is right and what is acceptable and what is NOT, I think that, done correctly, it does not hurt the child. I really believe that the culture surrounding it is what makes the difference. If a child is constantly told that they should not be hit or yelled at or in any way told they are wrong, how do you think they are going to grow up? Spoiled!

Tee - posted on 02/14/2012

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I don't agree with the article, however spanking should not be the only form of discipline used when raising children. There is a BIG difference between spanking and abuse. And yes I do spank my kids from time to time and yes I was spanked as a child. But spanking is not the only form of discipline used.



I also have seen the decline in respect for others as well as for the children themselves that are growing up now days since spanking has been frowned upon and most if not all school systems no longer have corporal punishment policies. I have seen a lot of things change with children as far as parenting skills and practices in the 20 years that I have been raising children and expect to see a lot more changes in the 16 years it will take until my youngest is 18.



I don't agree with the statement from the article "Spanking children can cause long-term developmental damage and may even lower a child's IQ" I turned out fine as did my family and friends with the majority entering college between the ages of 15 and 17, the rest entering college at the age of 18. Our IQ's have not been lowered by getting spanked as children. Spanking was not our parents first go to. Any one over the age of 35 (in my circles at least) can relate to the "mommy look" that we would get if something was disapproved.



I also don't think that this study is a real reflection on just spanking as far as "long-term developmental damage". Just look at a lot of the family structures and things that have changed. There are a lot more single parent and broken / blended homes than when I was growing up. More mothers working outside of the home whether by choice or financial need. And a whole lot more kids in daycare, where as when I grew up family helped in caring for the children. There is a saying it takes a village to raise a child. Our family and neighbors where that village. I don't see that as often with my 2 year old daughters friends as I did before. If a child is not of a strong constitution any of these things can contribute to developmental damage. The study does not even take these factors into consideration. Maybe because I am an older mom I see thing different than I did when I was just starting the road of mommyhood in my early 20's.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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@Julianne, BOTH of my sisters are in abusive relationships (one physical and emotionally abusive, the other one severely emotionally abused). And the one sister with all the problems, she is extremely aggressive. I got the least of the spanking/abuse, so I think that may be why I ended up in a stable relationship with a wonderful man, and NOT abusive.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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Well Kate, I suggest you get a new pair of glasses. It indeed teaches them something.....it teaches then HOW to hit.

Kate CP - posted on 02/14/2012

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I fail to see how hitting some one teaches them anything except resenting you for hitting them or being afraid of you.

[deleted account]

I come from a family of 10 all of which were physically punished. I'm fine, but 2 sisters have sever aggression problems. One is stuck in an abusive relationship because she justifies the behavior, had a history of drug problems and is unstable. 3 brothers use iv drugs. 3 of us are productive members of society, one is still in elementary school.



Something that CAN happen doesn't necessarily happen, why take the chance with your own child.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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And you REALLY think an organization trying to stop spanking is a bad thing? And by the way, that is what any study is trying to do on any matter. Trying to prove it and push an agenda. Duh.



Also, anyone saying spanking is ok also has an agenda to push. Ever think of that?



You have no idea how each individual child over the world would react to even being hit once. YOU may think it is obsurd, but is a reality for many. And maybe your brother has issues due to other things such as mental illness. What if he WAS spanked, it could have made it MUCH worse for him. Think about it. My sister is severely mentally unstable....she has mental illness. My oldest sister and I do not have mental illness. We were ALL beaten. Only one of us has been in an out of jail and has serious substance abuse issues. Guess which one? The one with mental illness. Perhaps if she was never abused, her life would be different.

[deleted account]

So smoking while pregnant studies are stupid too i guess. My mom smoked when she was pregnant with me, I'm not dead or sick. So people should ignore the warnings and smoke if they want to...Right??

Amanda - posted on 02/14/2012

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Any study done by a biased group to push their own agenda is flawed.... I didn't realize that would be "groundbreaking news" to most people...... Should there ever be a study on spanking conducted by a truly UNBIASED group it might have actual merit... However it would also probably prove what Claire said earlier which is that spanking as well as most other things are child dependent.... what "damages" a child varies greatly from kid to kid... Abuse can be a trigger for one and getting the wrong barbie doll for her birthday might trigger another. So saying spanking causes drug abuse and depression is absurd. I have a baby brother who was NEVER spanked and is a drug dependent diagnosed depressed man, my older brother and I who WERE spanked are neither..... So I call this study FLAWED.

[deleted account]

amanda. why not read my post more carefully before making assumptions.



You said that a study exists comparing gays to pedophiles. That study is bashing gay people. Not that YOU are....sheesh

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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@Amanda "My point which was obviously lost on you is they are all STUPID and FLAWED STUDIES"



Then...that would mean any study saying spanking is ok would be stupid and flawed. Hell, that means every study in the world is stupid and flawed. WOWZA! That is...well....you better get on your soap box to the news and let them know what you have uncovered. I think it may be groundbreaking news!

[deleted account]

"The bill was eventually amended to allow parents and caregivers to use force in very specific situations — such as a small smack to the hand to stop a child who is about to do something dangerous or harmful. But routine discipline and the use of spanking as premeditated punishment wouldn't be allowed."



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009...



Its in the process of becoming illegal in Canada.

Amanda - posted on 02/14/2012

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@ Sarah Texas Child Protective Services also stated there is a difference between spanking and abuse and spanking is seen as discipline not abuse.

Sarah - posted on 02/14/2012

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I have a news for all of you, when we had our two neices staying with us as Foster Care children, Canadian Childrens Aid didn't have problem with spanking. They said their is a difference between resnoble spanking and beating up. They both got it from me, because that was the only way to get them to listen to us. My grandsons get it every once in a while when everything else fails and both moms have lots of pacience for them. One of them is 13years old very well ajusted, gets good grades in school and is very close to his mom. He plays on minor legue soccer team, gets proper discipilne there and has positive peer presure. In my family their was everyday saying Monkey see, Monkey do, and that is so true. Kids have always been more observant than adults and if they see one kid doing something and getting away with it they will try it to. I do not pay attention to statistics, simply because most of them are not showing both sides. Litle spanking gose a long way with proper explanation, sending kid to it's room wthout explanation does more damage.

Amanda - posted on 02/14/2012

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My point which was obviously lost on you is they are all STUPID and FLAWED STUDIES. And considering that this post is about a STUDY. I find what I posted to be quite relevant. I can see now that continuing any kind of a civil debate with you is pointless since you can't see the difference between a comparison and gay bashing..... Which I was not doing to begin with I have several gay friends.... Who btw(by the way) agree that pedophilia is in no way similar to being gay. Please try to read a little more carefully before you start making accusations...

Amanda - posted on 02/14/2012

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@ Claire thank you for being open minded enough to respectfully disagree. I totally agree with you it comes down the specific child and what affects them.

[deleted account]

Huge difference between not vaccinating, bashing gay people, and knowing spanking infringes on the basic human rights of a child. At least compare things that are relevant instead of rambling on because the post hit a nerve.

Amanda - posted on 02/14/2012

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Ok human mistakes are hardly inclusive to one country..... plenty of other countries don't vaccinate either which hardly makes it a good idea.... There are also studies now that say that being a pedophile is the same as being gay... Which I find disgusting, untrue and can think of several gay men and women who would most certainly disagree. At the end of the day most studies show exactly what the people doing them WANT them to show...

Claire - posted on 02/14/2012

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I think it depends on the child as to how it affects them. Many children have not only been spanked but horrifically physically abused and did not turn out to be depressed, agressive or involved with substance abuse. I also know plenty of people who were never spanked and had every opportunity in life and still turned out this way. I don't like spanking myself but I don't believe spanking predicts the above!

[deleted account]

Too bad 33 whole countries agree with this study(among the thousands of studies that also back it up).

Amanda - posted on 02/14/2012

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I think saying spanking causes drug abuse and depression is insane.... I have one thing to say about this study..... A few years back "a study" proved vaccinations caused autism, it too was thought to be a well done study and parents stopped vaccinating their kids and what happened........ OH YEAH IT WAS PROVED TO BE INACCURATE!!!!!! Like you said humans make mistakes.... Think about that before you start preaching the results of a human run study on spanking..... Just a thought.....

Sherry - posted on 02/14/2012

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That quote isn't true. I wasn't just spanked as a child, I was ABUSED. My Mother used to give me black eyes and my Father used to beat me with a switch until I had blood running down my legs. I turned out fine, despite all of this, and I don't hold anything against my parents because they were only passing down what they were taught to do.



There is a fine line between discipline and abuse, and I know what that is. With my experience and patience, since I'm an older parent, my son will NEVER be abused. I would only spank as a very last resort, but I don't want somebody else telling me how to discipline my child. This is a personal choice. No quote can change that.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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Also, if you do not read the article, how do you know you don't agree with it.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/14/2012

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Well, if my child pulled a hot pot of water or whatever down on themselves, the LAST thing i would do is spank them. For crying out loud, I think the burns would be enough of a punishment, then to hit them for it? I think they would have learned their lesson without mom hitting them. I would immediately check and treat burns, take to the hospital if necessary, and hug them. Then I would tell them that is why I don't want them reaching up on the stove, and you bet your ass I would NEVER leave the pot handles facing out again.

[deleted account]

IF your hitting a child your doing it wrong. Sorry to say. Anything that takes away the rights of another human is WRONG.

[deleted account]

I think it all comes down to the child, every child reacts differently at every age and you have to find out what punishment works best with your child. I have one child that I can simply say I am disappointed in you and he changes his behavior. I have another that would laugh in my face if I told him that and he requires a spanking every once in a while to get the point across. It just all depends on the personality and I envy you parents that have never raised a "difficult" child. I don't think anyone has a right to tell another parent what they are doing is wrong unless they have been in their shoes.

Jenni - posted on 02/14/2012

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I'll add that my husband came from a very strict family (heck, they're still strict with him and he's 34) but they never used spanking with their kids. Not because their kids "didn't need it". They just used other methods of discipline. They're both respectful, educated adults. My SIL is a school teacher and works with at risk children and my husband has his degree in Environmental Management and works for a pharmaceutical company. So it's completely possible to rear hardworking, responsible, respectful adults without spanking them as children.

Jenni - posted on 02/14/2012

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Kelly- Yes, but what you described happens in homes on both sides of the fence spanking or non. It's called permissive parenting. You can be an authoritative positive discipline parent just like some people can be permissive spanking parents. Basically, spanking doesn't go hand in hand with authoritative parenting and positive parenting doesn't go hand in hand with permissive parenting. I should know, I came from a family who used spanking but my parents were very permissive.

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